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2013 Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Charlie Manuel has been fired (Aug. 16)

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Old
08-05-2013, 02:52 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Justified View Post
Amaro made both Lee trades and the Halladay deal, as you pointed out the first Lee deal was great. Didnt give up much and without him they dont go back to the World Series. Giving away a Cy Young pitcher for nothing who was making $9 million dollars should get you fired. Look at what the Rays got for Shields, they got Will ****ing Myers and another top 30 prospect. We're in hell until Ruben is canned.
Different situations, IMO of course.

I think the KC trade was an attempt to "save his job".

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08-05-2013, 02:53 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Justified View Post
Amaro made both Lee trades and the Halladay deal, as you pointed out the first Lee deal was great. Didnt give up much and without him they dont go back to the World Series. Giving away a Cy Young pitcher for nothing who was making $9 million dollars should get you fired. Look at what the Rays got for Shields, they got Will ****ing Myers and another top 30 prospect. We're in hell until Ruben is canned.
Actually they did, it just turned out to be that those players never turned into anything, but at the time they gave up 4 of their top 10 prospects for Lee, and did the same for Halladay. Yet they only got back 2 of the Mariners top prospects, but even worse they were 18 & 19 year old pitchers. Horrible, horrible trade.

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08-05-2013, 03:04 PM
  #778
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Lol at Antonio Bastardo being suspended because of the biogensis case.

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08-05-2013, 03:34 PM
  #779
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08-05-2013, 03:45 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Lol at Antonio Bastardo being suspended because of the biogensis case.
Lifetime Bans need to start happening.

I don't trust a single MLB athlete, and no one is going to until this occurs.

How many repeat offenders have there been so far, is there a number/statistic of players who have been suspended and gone on to get a second offense?

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08-05-2013, 05:41 PM
  #781
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That's because most of the guys the Phillies traded were still in A ball which meant they were a 3-4 years away from being major league ready.

The got ***** in the Pence trade. Singleton, Cosart and Santana.
Not really....

Cliff Lee: RHP Carlos Carrasco (AAA, 22), C Lou Marson (AAA, 23), SS/3B Jason Donald (AAA, 24), & RHP Jason Knapp (A, 18)

Roy Halladay: RHP Kyle Drabek (AA, 21), C Travis d'Arnaud (A, 20), & OF Michael Taylor (AAA, 23)

Roy Oswalt: LHP J.A. Happ (MLB, 27), OF Anthony Gose (A, 19), & SS Jonathan Villar (A, 19)

Hunter Pence: 1B Jonathan Singleton (A, 19), RHP Jarred Cosart (AA, 21), & OF Domingo Santana (A, 18)

Ben Revere: RHP Vance Worley (MLB, 24), & RHP Trevor May (AA, 22)

Here's where they are at currently:
-Carrasco: AAA 26
-Donald: AAA 28
-Marson: AAA 27
-Knapp: Out of Baseball
-Drabek: AA 25
-d'Arnaud: AA 24
-Taylor: AAA 27
-Happ: MLB 30
-Gose: AAA 22
-Villar: AAA 22
-Singleton: AAA 21
-Cosart: MLB 23
-Santana: AA 21
-Worley: AAA 25
-May: AA 23

d'Arnaud & Singleton were the only two prospects on that list to make Baseball America's top 100 (23rd & 26th) to start the year & both made their mid-year top 50 (25th & 22nd) as well.

The jury's still out on the last three trades but the Lee & Halladay deals weren't bad at all. The problem isn't when he's a buyer but more when he's a seller. He does nothing to replenish the system through trades when he's selling & the draft, that's the real problem.


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Old
08-05-2013, 06:46 PM
  #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Not really....

Cliff Lee: Carlos Carrasco (AAA), Lou Marson (AAA), Jason Donald (AAA), & Jason Knapp (A)

Roy Halladay: Kyle Drabek (AA), Travis d'Arnaud (A), & Michael Taylor (AAA)

Roy Oswalt: JA Happ (MLB), Anthony Gose (A), & Jonathan Villar (A)

Hunter Pence: Jonathan Singleton (A), Jarred Cosart (AA), & Domingo Santana (A)

Ben Revere: Vance Worely (MLB), & Trevor May (AA)

The jury's still out on the last three trades but the Lee & Halladay deals weren't bad at all. The problem isn't when he's a buyer but more when he's a seller. He does nothing to replenish the system through trades when he's selling & the draft, that's the real problem.
Yeah I never had a problem with any of these deals. If you are contending, especially in baseball, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

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08-05-2013, 07:39 PM
  #783
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It seems like Rube is decent at buying and awful at selling. Perhaps they should have a sales and a purchasing department headed by two separate GMs. That's how I'd run my team.

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08-06-2013, 12:04 AM
  #784
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it was a terrible overpay. I think Cosart will end up being a reliever. Santana has playe pretty well this year but Singleton has been bad at AAA. But it was just a terrible trade. I dont mind the Oswalt trade though. Maybe Gose will be something. D'Anaurd should be up soon with the Mets.
Don't forget Villar too.
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proof that ped's don't help everyone
Yeah that 14 K/9 he had last year was so awful.

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08-06-2013, 01:47 AM
  #785
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Worley is in the minors now by the way.

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08-06-2013, 09:36 AM
  #786
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Ryan Madson was released by the Angels last night. Poor guy hasn't pitched in a major league game in two years cause of injury. He's a really nice guy, hate to see something like this happen.

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08-06-2013, 09:38 AM
  #787
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Ryan Madson was released by the Angels last night. Poor guy hasn't pitched in a major league game in two years cause of injury. He's a really nice guy, hate to see something like this happen.
If he ever got healthy again, I'd like the Phillies to maybe grab him for cheap.

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08-06-2013, 09:52 AM
  #788
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Not really....

Cliff Lee: RHP Carlos Carrasco (AAA, 22), C Lou Marson (AAA, 23), SS/3B Jason Donald (AAA, 24), & RHP Jason Knapp (A, 18)

Roy Halladay: RHP Kyle Drabek (AA, 21), C Travis d'Arnaud (A, 20), & OF Michael Taylor (AAA, 23)

Roy Oswalt: LHP J.A. Happ (MLB, 27), OF Anthony Gose (A, 19), & SS Jonathan Villar (A, 19)

Hunter Pence: 1B Jonathan Singleton (A, 19), RHP Jarred Cosart (AA, 21), & OF Domingo Santana (A, 18)

Ben Revere: RHP Vance Worley (MLB, 24), & RHP Trevor May (AA, 22)

Here's where they are at currently:
-Carrasco: AAA 26
-Donald: AAA 28
-Marson: AAA 27
-Knapp: Out of Baseball
-Drabek: AA 25
-d'Arnaud: AA 24
-Taylor: AAA 27
-Happ: MLB 30
-Gose: AAA 22
-Villar: AAA 22
-Singleton: AAA 21
-Cosart: MLB 23
-Santana: AA 21
-Worley: AAA 25
-May: AA 23

d'Arnaud & Singleton were the only two prospects on that list to make Baseball America's top 100 (23rd & 26th) to start the year & both made their mid-year top 50 (25th & 22nd) as well.

The jury's still out on the last three trades but the Lee & Halladay deals weren't bad at all. The problem isn't when he's a buyer but more when he's a seller. He does nothing to replenish the system through trades when he's selling & the draft, that's the real problem.
I don't disagree with "going for it". But the manner which they did didn't make sense. I thought the Cliff Lee trade was good. But then to follow it up with the Halladay trade and then jettison Lee for spare parts was unneccessary and idiotic. The Oswalt trade wasn't good. His numbers were already on the decline. The Pence trade was a awful (I think 10 year from now that could be looked at like the Bartolo Colon Expos trade). The Revere trade was meh.

Also, Baseball America rankings are bunk. Chase Utley was never in the top 50 minor prospects. Cole Hamels actually went from #17 in 2004 to #71 in 2005 and then #68 in 2006. Cliff Lee wasn't rated in the top 50 until he was 24. I don't really care how Baseball America rates a player.

Plus, when you look at MLB talent, most of them don't make it to the majors until they're around 24ish and then it usually take a year or two before they settle in and make an impact. So Gose, Drabek, Santana, Singleton, Cosart, May, Villar, D'Arnaud all have yet to hit their professional peak.

But I can tell you this, I would have much rather tried Anthony Gose in CF than trade for Ben Revere. And I'd rather throw out a Kyle Drabek or Jared Cosart for a start then have to use Tyler Cloyd or Ethan Martin.

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08-06-2013, 09:59 AM
  #789
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Drabek is now on his 3rd Tommy John? That kid is almost done before he started. Cosart we will see, I like that Martin has a heavy FB. Let this kid just go out and throw, better than slop arm Lannan.

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08-06-2013, 10:17 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I don't disagree with "going for it". But the manner which they did didn't make sense. I thought the Cliff Lee trade was good. But then to follow it up with the Halladay trade and then jettison Lee for spare parts was unneccessary and idiotic. The Oswalt trade wasn't good. His numbers were already on the decline. The Pence trade was a awful (I think 10 year from now that could be looked at like the Bartolo Colon Expos trade). The Revere trade was meh.
I understand at the time why they were willing to move Lee. The problem I had with the trade was that they didn't really get anybody good from Seattle. Had they turned Lee into an everyday player or hell even a good bullpen arm and then resigned him it would have been a pretty good deal.

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08-06-2013, 10:34 AM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I don't disagree with "going for it". But the manner which they did didn't make sense. I thought the Cliff Lee trade was good. But then to follow it up with the Halladay trade and then jettison Lee for spare parts was unneccessary and idiotic. The Oswalt trade wasn't good. His numbers were already on the decline. The Pence trade was a awful (I think 10 year from now that could be looked at like the Bartolo Colon Expos trade). The Revere trade was meh.

Also, Baseball America rankings are bunk. Chase Utley was never in the top 50 minor prospects. Cole Hamels actually went from #17 in 2004 to #71 in 2005 and then #68 in 2006. Cliff Lee wasn't rated in the top 50 until he was 24. I don't really care how Baseball America rates a player.

Plus, when you look at MLB talent, most of them don't make it to the majors until they're around 24ish and then it usually take a year or two before they settle in and make an impact. So Gose, Drabek, Santana, Singleton, Cosart, May, Villar, D'Arnaud all have yet to hit their professional peak.

But I can tell you this, I would have much rather tried Anthony Gose in CF than trade for Ben Revere. And I'd rather throw out a Kyle Drabek or Jared Cosartfor a start then have to use Tyler Cloyd or Ethan Martin.

Why and why? Did Revere show you no potential at his age? His first month was rough, but he came on pretty well recently and was hitting well. Plus all that speed.

And are you telling me that you would go back and undo the Halladay trade?

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08-06-2013, 10:35 AM
  #792
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I understand at the time why they were willing to move Lee. The problem I had with the trade was that they didn't really get anybody good from Seattle. Had they turned Lee into an everyday player or hell even a good bullpen arm and then resigned him it would have been a pretty good deal.
I don't really understand why they traded Lee other than for financial reasons. Then, throw in the heap of crap that Seattle gave, and wow.

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08-06-2013, 10:42 AM
  #793
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I don't disagree with "going for it". But the manner which they did didn't make sense. I thought the Cliff Lee trade was good. But then to follow it up with the Halladay trade and then jettison Lee for spare parts was unneccessary and idiotic. The Oswalt trade wasn't good. His numbers were already on the decline. The Pence trade was a awful (I think 10 year from now that could be looked at like the Bartolo Colon Expos trade). The Revere trade was meh.

Also, Baseball America rankings are bunk. Chase Utley was never in the top 50 minor prospects. Cole Hamels actually went from #17 in 2004 to #71 in 2005 and then #68 in 2006. Cliff Lee wasn't rated in the top 50 until he was 24. I don't really care how Baseball America rates a player.

Plus, when you look at MLB talent, most of them don't make it to the majors until they're around 24ish and then it usually take a year or two before they settle in and make an impact. So Gose, Drabek, Santana, Singleton, Cosart, May, Villar, D'Arnaud all have yet to hit their professional peak.

But I can tell you this, I would have much rather tried Anthony Gose in CF than trade for Ben Revere. And I'd rather throw out a Kyle Drabek or Jared Cosart for a start then have to use Tyler Cloyd or Ethan Martin.
I never said the guy isn't an idiot without a plan but those trades aren't the reason we are in the situation we are in right now.


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08-06-2013, 11:11 AM
  #794
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I don't really understand why they traded Lee other than for financial reasons. Then, throw in the heap of crap that Seattle gave, and wow.
I still remember the answer our smug gm gavr to why he traded Lee, "to restock the farm" . It was a panic move as he traded him the same day they got Halladay. Probably didnt want the fanbase to think they could have both, so he panicked and gave him away. He traded a pitcher of the same quality of Halladay and got a Joe Blanton return.

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08-06-2013, 11:49 AM
  #795
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Oh well. At this point, I hope they keep Halladay and Utley considering they won't get anything of value for them. It'd be pretty annoying if they dumped them for crap if they are still serviceable, which I really believe they are. Halladay could be a good 4-5 guy if his arm comes back enough.

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08-06-2013, 01:50 PM
  #796
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I don't disagree with "going for it". But the manner which they did didn't make sense. I thought the Cliff Lee trade was good. But then to follow it up with the Halladay trade and then jettison Lee for spare parts was unneccessary and idiotic. The Oswalt trade wasn't good. His numbers were already on the decline. The Pence trade was a awful (I think 10 year from now that could be looked at like the Bartolo Colon Expos trade). The Revere trade was meh.

Also, Baseball America rankings are bunk. Chase Utley was never in the top 50 minor prospects. Cole Hamels actually went from #17 in 2004 to #71 in 2005 and then #68 in 2006. Cliff Lee wasn't rated in the top 50 until he was 24. I don't really care how Baseball America rates a player.

Plus, when you look at MLB talent, most of them don't make it to the majors until they're around 24ish and then it usually take a year or two before they settle in and make an impact. So Gose, Drabek, Santana, Singleton, Cosart, May, Villar, D'Arnaud all have yet to hit their professional peak.

But I can tell you this, I would have much rather tried Anthony Gose in CF than trade for Ben Revere. And I'd rather throw out a Kyle Drabek or Jared Cosart for a start then have to use Tyler Cloyd or Ethan Martin.
Oswalt was nasty after they got him. H20 was absolutely dominant down the stretch that year...all three pitchers were at their best at the same time. That team was also borderline at the time of the deadline, so Oswalt was a big part of them winning the division.

The only thing that makes the Pence deal bad is that they traded him for scrubs the next year. For what they gave up for him, trading him last year made no sense. Pence is still a very good player in his prime, and wouldve made this a better team this year.

I dont mind the big trades Ruben made. There was an obvious window of time to win a championship, and he wanted to make the most of it. Where Ruben has been terrible has been making the small moves...signing guys, bringing in the right role players, drafting, etc. Some of the best moves Gillick made were way under the radar...and thats what you need to win a championship.

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08-06-2013, 01:57 PM
  #797
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Oswalt was nasty after they got him. H20 was absolutely dominant down the stretch that year...all three pitchers were at their best at the same time. That team was also borderline at the time of the deadline, so Oswalt was a big part of them winning the division.

The only thing that makes the Pence deal bad is that they traded him for scrubs the next year. For what they gave up for him, trading him last year made no sense. Pence is still a very good player in his prime, and wouldve made this a better team this year.

I dont mind the big trades Ruben made. There was an obvious window of time to win a championship, and he wanted to make the most of it. Where Ruben has been terrible has been making the small moves...signing guys, bringing in the right role players, drafting, etc. Some of the best moves Gillick made were way under the radar...and thats what you need to win a championship.
Pence is an ok player and he's 30, his prime is over.

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08-06-2013, 02:23 PM
  #798
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Oswalt was nasty after they got him. H20 was absolutely dominant down the stretch that year...all three pitchers were at their best at the same time. That team was also borderline at the time of the deadline, so Oswalt was a big part of them winning the division.

The only thing that makes the Pence deal bad is that they traded him for scrubs the next year. For what they gave up for him, trading him last year made no sense. Pence is still a very good player in his prime, and wouldve made this a better team this year.

I dont mind the big trades Ruben made. There was an obvious window of time to win a championship, and he wanted to make the most of it. Where Ruben has been terrible has been making the small moves...signing guys, bringing in the right role players, drafting, etc. Some of the best moves Gillick made were way under the radar...and thats what you need to win a championship.

YES.

Think about all the contributors to the team down the stretch:

Greg Dobbs - pinch hitting machine
Matt Stairs - legendary homer off of Broxton
Geoff Jenkins - probably joking here but that double he hit was good (his only postseason hit if my memory serves correct)
Jayson Werth - extremely shrewd, under the radar signing that paid extreme dividends
Eric Bruntlett - may be disagreed with here, but he provided a reliable glove off the bench for late game situations (although he had some blunders in the postseason.) Plus that triple play was sweet.
JC Romero - huge pickup for nothing, one of the team's best relievers down the stretch

I'm sure there are more.

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08-06-2013, 02:44 PM
  #799
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BTW.

Brown activated
Nix DFA'd

So for anybody keeping track that means Asche/Ruf stay up, so does that mean Brown goes to RF, Ruf goes to LF, MYoung goes to 1st, Asche 3rd?

Something tells me it'll be

DYoung RF
Brown LF
Ruf 1st
MYoung 3rd

The kid rides the pine

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08-06-2013, 02:50 PM
  #800
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BTW.

Brown activated
Nix DFA'd

So for anybody keeping track that means Asche/Ruf stay up, so does that mean Brown goes to RF, Ruf goes to LF, MYoung goes to 1st, Asche 3rd?

Something tells me it'll be

DYoung RF
Brown LF
Ruf 1st
MYoung 3rd

The kid rides the pine
That would be ridiculous if Asche sat to let Delmon Young play. That said, it's the most likely scenario.

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