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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mark Messier vs Bobby Clarke

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Old
07-29-2013, 04:24 PM
  #101
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sooooo......

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Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers View Post
Aliens come to earth and play us in a game of hockey for the fate of humanity... I pick Clarke as my starting center.
.....pretty important game, eh ?

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07-29-2013, 08:42 PM
  #102
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Won't pick one over the other, as I have great respect for both as hockey players...I will say that it would be a treat to see each go against the other in a playoff series. There would be enough slashing, spearing, hooking, and other infractions committed to fill a book. And high-end hockey skill!

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07-29-2013, 09:35 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Pronger won a Hart, which Lidstrom never did. I honestly think one could claim Pronger at his absolute best was better.
The most amusing thing about that is that both had better seasons after 2000 than Pronger's 2000 season.

And Lidstrom was the best hockey player in the world in 2002 and thereabouts. He didn't win the Hart because the Wings had just "loaded a bunch of Hall of Famers onto an already stacked roster."

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07-29-2013, 10:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The most amusing thing about that is that both had better seasons after 2000 than Pronger's 2000 season.

And Lidstrom was the best hockey player in the world in 2002 and thereabouts. He didn't win the Hart because the Wings had just "loaded a bunch of Hall of Famers onto an already stacked roster."
Lidstrom was consistently elite. However, he never had that "wow" season. There is not a single season I can think of he deserved the Hart(assuming you ignore stacked rosters)

In 2001, he was the highest ranked Wing, but in no way shape or form does he compare to Sakic that year.
In 2002 Shanahan was the highest ranked wing(And let's face it. Flash in the pan he was, but theodore was amazing that year)
In 2003 He was the highest ranked wing again, but again, his season does not compete with Forsberg's
In 2004 he was not a factor in Hart voting.
in 2006, His season was amazing given he adapted to the new rules quickly, but Thornton and Jagr were clearly ahead of him.
2007, Crosby was easily ahead.
2008, Ovechkin was a shoe in.
2009 Datsyuk was the most important wing.

No, Lidstrom never won the hart. But not because of his team.

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07-29-2013, 10:33 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Lidstrom was consistently elite. However, he never had that "wow" season. There is not a single season I can think of he deserved the Hart(assuming you ignore stacked rosters)
How can you ignore who the player plays with when determining who is the most valuable? If Detroit and Chicago had identical rosters full of average forwards and average defensemen, except Chicago had Toews and Keith while Detroit has only one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then who should win the Hart if you are picking a winner from these two teams? The obvious pick is Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Why? Because their team relies on them so much more.

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In 2001, he was the highest ranked Wing, but in no way shape or form does he compare to Sakic that year.
In 2002 Shanahan was the highest ranked wing(And let's face it. Flash in the pan he was, but theodore was amazing that year)
This was a travesty; Lidstrom should have won the Pearson and been third in Hart voting.

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In 2003 He was the highest ranked wing again, but again, his season does not compete with Forsberg's
Why not? What made Forsberg's season so much more impressive? Points?

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In 2004 he was not a factor in Hart voting.
Because his offense was reduced due to an additional team focus on defense with the gaping hole left by Fedorov (plugged poorly when Lang was acquired). This season, 2004, would be the Hart that I would give to Lidstrom if he could only have one. I would have given the Norris to Pronger, and Niedermayer can just stay home from the awards show because he shouldn't have been a "finalist" at all.

Anyhow, this is a Clarke vs. Messier thread. If you want to discuss Lidstrom please start a thread.

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07-29-2013, 10:59 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How can you ignore who the player plays with when determining who is the most valuable? If Detroit and Chicago had identical rosters full of average forwards and average defensemen, except Chicago had Toews and Keith while Detroit has only one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then who should win the Hart if you are picking a winner from these two teams? The obvious pick is Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Why? Because their team relies on them so much more.
Sticking with post expansion. Remind me to let Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito, Guy LaFleur, Bryan Trottier, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Mark Messier, Joe Sakic, and Peter Forsberg know that their teams were too good for them to win the Hart.


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This was a travesty; Lidstrom should have won the Pearson and been third in Hart voting.
I am assuming you mean the year Theodore won(because in no universe does Lidstrom deserve the Pearson over Sakic that year).

Feel free to chastise the players for not giving him the Pearson or the media voters for not voting him the Hart. Shanahan had an outstanding year and the people who gave a red wing a vote picked him.


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Why not? What made Forsberg's season so much more impressive? Points?
You are kidding right?


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Because his offense was reduced due to an additional team focus on defense with the gaping hole left by Fedorov (plugged poorly when Lang was acquired). This season, 2004, would be the Hart that I would give to Lidstrom if he could only have one. I would have given the Norris to Pronger, and Niedermayer can just stay home from the awards show because he shouldn't have been a "finalist" at all.
He is nowhere near a Hart this season. He started the season very poor defensively and then basically gave up on offense to get it back. Red Wing fans were both surprised and discouraged by his play. Nowhere near a Hart.

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Anyhow, this is a Clarke vs. Messier thread. If you want to discuss Lidstrom please start a thread.
Good idea. I had already responded by the time I got to this

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07-30-2013, 10:38 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Lidstrom was consistently elite. However, he never had that "wow" season. There is not a single season I can think of he deserved the Hart(assuming you ignore stacked rosters)

In 2001, he was the highest ranked Wing, but in no way shape or form does he compare to Sakic that year.
In 2002 Shanahan was the highest ranked wing(And let's face it. Flash in the pan he was, but theodore was amazing that year)
In 2003 He was the highest ranked wing again, but again, his season does not compete with Forsberg's
In 2004 he was not a factor in Hart voting.
in 2006, His season was amazing given he adapted to the new rules quickly, but Thornton and Jagr were clearly ahead of him.
2007, Crosby was easily ahead.
2008, Ovechkin was a shoe in.
2009 Datsyuk was the most important wing.

No, Lidstrom never won the hart. But not because of his team.
I love Lidstrom, but I have to agree with this. I've never seen him as the best player in any given year, but instead a top 3 for multiple years, which is still amazing.

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07-30-2013, 12:36 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Bobby Clarke... would do anything to insure the win.
Including disgusting, unsportsmanlike acts. If one of the Soviet soldiers were given a command to open fire at him...

As for "one game against aliens," I believe Wayne Gretzky played a game against robots in a cartoon series "Pro Stars."

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07-31-2013, 10:46 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
No, Lidstrom never won the hart. But not because of his team.
Right, it was because he was a defenseman.

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Old
08-01-2013, 01:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Who was the better player?

Both were great leaders, top notch playmakers, stepped up big in the playoffs and were noted for often being quite dirty. Love 'em or hate 'em, both are among the best centers of all time.

Messier has an edge in cups, Clarke has the edge in MVPs.

Who's better?
Man oh man this is a good one. 2 of my all time favorite players. Messier has more points and cups but could be considered a complier by some standards. Then I think of his play during the Oilers first championship and ponder....if Messier hadn't done that, do the Oilers go on and win all those cups.

Then you have nasty Bobby Clarke who was as vicious as he was skilled. I believe he had 2 seasons in a row combined in which he was on the ice for 9 even strength goals total. Multiple MVP's during Orr's heyday and was never given enough credit (he would be a poster boy for advanced stats)

I think the end of Messier's career will hurt him with this, as it is still in our memories. Clarke had a more graceful exit.

I'm going to cheat and say they were equal, not concerned about illness as it doesn't matter in a comparison and will not use it for Clarke. If I had to choose one for a game 7 I believe I would take Clarke though

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Old
08-01-2013, 02:21 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Sticking with post expansion. Remind me to let Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito, Guy LaFleur, Bryan Trottier, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Mark Messier, Joe Sakic, and Peter Forsberg know that their teams were too good for them to win the Hart.
No, you simply don't seem to understand the difference between "best" and "most valuable".

Many people think John Tavares should have won the Hart this past season because he was a very good player on a fairly poor team (I don't agree with Tavares for Hart, but it's a good example). Switch Tavares and Crosby. Does ANYONE think Tavares deserves the Hart? No.

And why not? Because he just went from being the best player on a decent team that has a few good forwards (but outscoring his LW by only three points) to being the second-best center on his team. It's very difficult to win the Hart when people aren't sure if you are your team's most valuable player/consider you not to be. Same goes for the Norris, the Vezina, the Selke, the postseason all-star teams, etc. It's rare that voters will pick multiple players from the same team for awards, so being seen as the "lesser" player in a category than a teammate will often result in a significant lack of votes. A great example of this is Yzerman/Fedorov through the 90s in center voting and in Selke voting. It was rare to see both guys finishing high; it was one or the other. Which is amusing because to Wings fans, there wasn't much generally difference in the quality of their performance.

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Feel free to chastise the players for not giving him the Pearson or the media voters for not voting him the Hart. Shanahan had an outstanding year and the people who gave a red wing a vote picked him.
Which was insane, because Shanahan at no point was ever the Wings' most valuable forward, let alone player.

Quote:
He is nowhere near a Hart this season. He started the season very poor defensively and then basically gave up on offense to get it back. Red Wing fans were both surprised and discouraged by his play. Nowhere near a Hart.
Lidstrom focused heavily on defense that season because the Wings lost Sergei Fedorov, and decided to replace him with Derian Hatcher. Hatcher was injured at the start of the season (and then came back and played like crap), and Lidstrom needed to cover his own duties and the loss of Hatcher. Because he was playing in such a stay at home role (save for on the PP), he finished fourth on the team among defensemen in ES points.

I don't consider him to have been Norris-worthy that season (I pick Pronger), but he's definitely my Hart pick.

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08-01-2013, 05:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No, you simply don't seem to understand the difference between "best" and "most valuable".

Many people think John Tavares should have won the Hart this past season because he was a very good player on a fairly poor team (I don't agree with Tavares for Hart, but it's a good example). Switch Tavares and Crosby. Does ANYONE think Tavares deserves the Hart? No.

And why not? Because he just went from being the best player on a decent team that has a few good forwards (but outscoring his LW by only three points) to being the second-best center on his team. It's very difficult to win the Hart when people aren't sure if you are your team's most valuable player/consider you not to be. Same goes for the Norris, the Vezina, the Selke, the postseason all-star teams, etc. It's rare that voters will pick multiple players from the same team for awards, so being seen as the "lesser" player in a category than a teammate will often result in a significant lack of votes. A great example of this is Yzerman/Fedorov through the 90s in center voting and in Selke voting. It was rare to see both guys finishing high; it was one or the other. Which is amusing because to Wings fans, there wasn't much generally difference in the quality of their performance.
No, I think you are the one who does not realize.


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Which was insane, because Shanahan at no point was ever the Wings' most valuable forward, let alone player.
it is amazing how far you will go to give props to your favorite players.
Next you will be telling us Yzerman is better defensively than Draper and Datsyuk


Quote:
Lidstrom focused heavily on defense that season because the Wings lost Sergei Fedorov, and decided to replace him with Derian Hatcher. Hatcher was injured at the start of the season (and then came back and played like crap), and Lidstrom needed to cover his own duties and the loss of Hatcher. Because he was playing in such a stay at home role (save for on the PP), he finished fourth on the team among defensemen in ES points.

I don't consider him to have been Norris-worthy that season (I pick Pronger), but he's definitely my Hart pick.
Lidstrom plain had a bad season by his standards. Even red wings fans wondered why he was having such a bad season. He started the season bad defensively. he then overcompensated by trying to focus solely on defense. At the time, he was looking hesitant with the puck and not pulling the trigger when a year ago, he would have been. He eventually came back to defensive form that season, but not offensive form.

By March, everyone, including wings fans claimed "Well, Lidstrom's Norris run is over".

Some people were convinced he was playing with an injury. Others wondered if he had some personal issues in the offseason.

Trying to argue he deserves Hart consideration in this season is just plain lunacy.

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08-01-2013, 10:44 PM
  #113
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This has been beaten to death and for good reasons because it's so close , but for the last year or so I tend to favor Messier over Clarke.

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08-03-2013, 10:45 AM
  #114
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I rank them even in toughness and leadership, Messier gets the the nod in overall skill.

Messier.

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08-03-2013, 02:48 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The most amusing thing about that is that both had better seasons after 2000 than Pronger's 2000 season.

And Lidstrom was the best hockey player in the world in 2002 and thereabouts. He didn't win the Hart because the Wings had just "loaded a bunch of Hall of Famers onto an already stacked roster."
I'd say Forsberg was the best player in the world from the 2002 playoffs til the 2004 season.

And are you seriously bringing up the stacked team AGAINST Lidstrom? Seems pretty convinient to use it to your advantage here but to use it to help your Yzerman claims.

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08-03-2013, 03:30 PM
  #116
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I'll go with Messier here. Clarke faded faster than Messier. But if we are talking about them at their absolute best I still think you go with Messier. Both players would have thrown their grandmother down the stairs in order to win. Each player would have to be a little more careful with the camera angles and such on the ice today but if Pronger found a way to be downright dirty then I think Clarke and Messier would too.

I think Messier could carry a team further though. Clarke had Parent, who was the most important Flyer. He also has a playoff record that is clearly inferior to Messier. There was never a time Clarke should have won the Conn Smythe. However, Messier won it once and has at least two other times (1990, 1994) where he was in the mix for it.

For a one series take all....................I couldn't pass on Messier.

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08-04-2013, 12:03 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Clarke had Parent, who was the most important Flyer.
Counter to Messier, who didn't have any support in Edmonton.

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08-04-2013, 04:43 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers View Post
Counter to Messier, who didn't have any support in Edmonton.
Not really what I was saying. Messier was always second fiddle to Gretzky in Edmonton, we know this, but it ties into the fact that Clarke has a less impressive playoff record than many of his other all-time great contemporaries. If you look at the top 25 players of all-time how does he fare if you just isolate their postseasons?

Messier did win two Cups without Gretzky, while Clarke didn't win anything without Parent. Yes Messier did not win a Conn Smythe in 1990 or 1994 but he was no worse than the second most important player on each championship, and on both times the leader. Clarke didn't have the "grab the team by the scruff of their neck" performance like Messier did. Rick MacLeish led the Flyers in scoring both championship years.

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08-05-2013, 12:10 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers View Post
Aliens come to earth and play us in a game of hockey for the fate of humanity... I pick Clarke as my starting center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poignant Discussion View Post
If I had to choose one for a game 7 I believe I would take Clarke though
I don't see how Clarke gets picked in this context.

Messier was just as ruthless and downright sociopathic as Clarke (and not many guys could ever say that), plus he was the far better clutch player. One of the very best playoff performers ever.

There's very, very few players I take over Messier in a, 'winner take all' game, and Clarke (as great as he was) would not be one of them.

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08-05-2013, 12:41 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I don't see how Clarke gets picked in this context. Messier was just as ruthless and downright sociopathic as Clarke (and not many guys could ever say that), plus he was the far better clutch player. One of the very best playoff performers ever.
Ya I agree. On yer basic Psycho Scale, doing whatever it takes, Mark Messier was every bit as nasty a piece of work as Bobby Clarke. He was just smarter about how he went about it.

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08-05-2013, 12:46 PM
  #121
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I never ask, but how many referees are we scheduled to have against the aliens? And which planet are they from? Because in a completely serious way, that could affect the impact that Clarke and Messier bring to such a contest.

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08-06-2013, 12:49 PM
  #122
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I found this post showing ESGA & ESGF for both Bobby Clarke and Mark Messier.

Does anyone have that same breakout for Bryan Trottier's career and Peter Forsberg's?

Data

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08-06-2013, 06:53 PM
  #123
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by mydogsparty View Post
I found this post showing ESGA & ESGF for both Bobby Clarke and Mark Messier.

Does anyone have that same breakout for Bryan Trottier's career and Peter Forsberg's?

Data
Pnep did a bunch of them a few years back

Ill just quotes the whole thing since i do not want to mess up his tables
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
PlayerYEARFranch.ESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
Nicklas Lidstrom1992DET55911285,7623,3814,139,25
Nicklas Lidstrom1993DET78851392,13217,8516,381,47
Nicklas Lidstrom1994DET861291583,48418,4112,286,14
Nicklas Lidstrom1995DET3247772,83924,1516,447,71
Nicklas Lidstrom1996DET54831376,35225,4916,588,91
Nicklas Lidstrom1997DET58691509,37426,0221,874,15
Nicklas Lidstrom1998DET56781459,226,0618,717,35
Nicklas Lidstrom1999DET66801406,1621,3117,583,73
Nicklas Lidstrom2000DET75941615,1421,5417,184,35
Nicklas Lidstrom2001DET71801458,7820,5518,232,31
Nicklas Lidstrom2002DET60731439,123,9919,714,27
Nicklas Lidstrom2003DET58981513,7226,1015,4510,65
Nicklas Lidstrom2004DET55741500,9327,2920,287,01
Nicklas Lidstrom2006DET58801308,822,5716,366,21
TOT  862116119621,7722,7616,905,86
         
Paul Coffey1981EDM72761077,66214,9714,180,79
Paul Coffey1982EDM1041391538,7214,8011,073,73
Paul Coffey1983EDM981501638,416,7210,925,80
Paul Coffey1984EDM1071591634,5615,2810,285,00
Paul Coffey1985EDM961511668,4817,3811,056,33
Paul Coffey1986EDM1181791617,1313,709,034,67
Paul Coffey1987EDM72841088,01915,1112,952,16
Paul Coffey1988PIT5958943,9216,0016,27-0,28
Paul Coffey1989PIT1171071568,17513,4014,66-1,25
Paul Coffey1990PIT1401151744,6412,4615,17-2,71
Paul Coffey1991PIT114961455,62812,7715,16-2,39
Paul Coffey1992LA80811214,415,1814,990,19
Paul Coffey1993DET841001398,6416,6513,992,66
Paul Coffey1994DET841121479,5217,6113,214,40
Paul Coffey1995DET4361983,0722,8616,126,75
Paul Coffey1996DET56751163,25620,7715,515,26
Paul Coffey1997PHI4960916,67418,7115,283,43
Paul Coffey1998PHI384185522,5020,851,65
Paul Coffey1999CAR3932723,618,5522,61-4,06
Paul Coffey2000CAR65591142,6417,5819,37-1,79
Paul Coffey2001BOS1913233,2812,2817,94-5,67
TOT  1654194826085,415,7713,392,38
         
Ray Bourque1980BOS601121490,7224,8513,3111,54
Ray Bourque1981BOS52811304,02125,0816,108,98
Ray Bourque1982BOS74961264,31517,0913,173,92
Ray Bourque1983BOS48971286,3526,8013,2613,54
Ray Bourque1984BOS701211551,65422,1712,829,34
Ray Bourque1985BOS791091519,64119,2413,945,29
Ray Bourque1986BOS76931384,5418,2214,893,33
Ray Bourque1987BOS651091505,24423,1613,819,35
Ray Bourque1988BOS751091432,78219,1013,145,96
Ray Bourque1989BOS54741183,2621,9115,995,92
Ray Bourque1990BOS64951540,21624,0716,217,85
Ray Bourque1991BOS741071547,66420,9114,466,45
Ray Bourque1992BOS81921599,5219,7517,392,36
Ray Bourque1993BOS731111557,81621,3414,037,31
Ray Bourque1994BOS66921379,08820,9014,995,91
Ray Bourque1995BOS3740882,5123,8522,061,79
Ray Bourque1996BOS841151741,2720,7315,145,59
Ray Bourque1997BOS83721230,51414,8317,09-2,27
Ray Bourque1998BOS61631694,9427,7926,900,88
Ray Bourque1999BOS63561517,9424,0927,11-3,01
Ray Bourque2000COL66641413,3121,4122,08-0,67
Ray Bourque2001COL53781359,225,6517,438,22
TOT  1458198631386,521,5315,805,72
         
Larry Robinson1973MTL1922453,7823,8820,633,26
Larry Robinson1974MTL731051641,66622,4915,636,85
Larry Robinson1975MTL641251499,9223,4412,0011,44
Larry Robinson1976MTL47971440,6430,6514,8515,80
Larry Robinson1977MTL641841854,54528,9810,0818,90
Larry Robinson1978MTL801511934,0824,1812,8111,37
Larry Robinson1979MTL651151485,3922,8512,929,94
Larry Robinson1980MTL761141608,33621,1614,117,05
Larry Robinson1981MTL701161436,520,5212,388,14
Larry Robinson1982MTL751321583,65521,1212,009,12
Larry Robinson1983MTL771101342,96517,4412,215,23
Larry Robinson1984MTL83871456,83817,5516,750,81
Larry Robinson1985MTL711041542,11621,7214,836,89
Larry Robinson1986MTL971261711,24217,6413,584,06
Larry Robinson1987MTL64881429,8222,3416,256,09
Larry Robinson1988MTL4874977,58520,3713,217,16
Larry Robinson1989MTL53761241,42423,4216,337,09
Larry Robinson1990LA77841235,5216,0514,711,34
Larry Robinson1991LA49711010,41420,6214,236,39
Larry Robinson1992LA4546742,44816,5016,140,36
TOT  1297202727628,8821,3013,637,67
         
Denis Potvin1974NYI101851736,88917,2020,43-3,24
Denis Potvin1975NYI771051754,27422,7816,716,08
Denis Potvin1976NYI71831712,95824,1320,643,49
Denis Potvin1977NYI75117168022,4014,368,04
Denis Potvin1978NYI771341807,0423,4713,499,98
Denis Potvin1979NYI571281602,86128,1212,5215,60
Denis Potvin1980NYI3346635,99619,2713,835,45
Denis Potvin1981NYI671051396,30620,8413,307,54
Denis Potvin1982NYI54921119,4220,7312,178,56
Denis Potvin1983NYI53851347,84625,4315,869,57
Denis Potvin1984NYI731281540,96821,1112,049,07
Denis Potvin1985NYI801161487,25518,5912,825,77
Denis Potvin1986NYI60941364,11622,7414,518,22
Denis Potvin1987NYI55491080,36619,6422,05-2,41
Denis Potvin1988NYI49751287,07226,2717,169,11
TOT  982144221553,3721,9514,957,00
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
YEARPLAYERPOSFranch.ESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
1982MacINNIS, ALDCGY1125,4025,4025,400,00
1983MacINNIS, ALDCGY1313220,8516,9916,990,00
1984MacINNIS, ALDCGY3737619,6516,7516,750,00
1985MacINNIS, ALDCGY69761139,3416,5114,991,52
1986MacINNIS, ALDCGY51891184,9523,2313,319,92
1987MacINNIS, ALDCGY75951383,4518,4514,563,88
1988MacINNIS, ALDCGY77901284,4016,6814,272,41
1989MacINNIS, ALDCGY671051436,1421,4313,687,76
1990MacINNIS, ALDCGY78981436,8518,4214,663,76
1991MacINNIS, ALDCGY601021318,2021,9712,929,05
1992MacINNIS, ALDCGY62751197,1419,3115,963,35
1993MacINNIS, ALDCGY4257831,7519,8014,595,21
1994MacINNIS, ALDCGY52871309,8025,1915,0610,13
1995MacINNIS, ALDSTL2039593,1529,6615,2114,45
1996MacINNIS, ALDSTL63681560,0524,7622,941,82
1997MacINNIS, ALDSTL78801443,6018,5118,050,46
1998MacINNIS, ALDSTL61671235,4020,2518,441,81
1999MacINNIS, ALDSTL57901558,8227,3517,3210,03
2000MacINNIS, ALDSTL32521068,7233,4020,5512,85
2001MacINNIS, ALDSTL3861967,0125,4515,859,60
2002MacINNIS, ALDSTL53551202,7422,6921,870,83
2003MacINNIS, ALDSTL60821369,6022,8316,706,12
2004MacINNIS, ALDSTL2141,3420,6741,34-20,67
23   1148152024428,3521,2816,075,21


Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
SeasonPLAYERPOSFranch.ESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
1994NASLUND, MARKUSRPIT2522668.0426.7230.37-3.64
1995NASLUND, MARKUSRPIT33117.6039.2039.200.00
1996NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN4565925.3020.5614.246.33
1997NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN5439949.4217.5824.34-6.76
1998NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN3641777.4821.6018.962.63
1999NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN64511106.4017.2921.69-4.41
2000NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN60551229.1820.4922.35-1.86
2001NASLUND, MARKUSRVAN5755950.4016.6717.28-0.61
2002NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN49711159.9223.6716.347.33
2003NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN58641175.8820.2718.371.90
2004NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN45691155.1825.6716.748.93
2006NASLUND, MARKUSLVAN64451033.5616.1522.97-6.82
12   56058011248.3620.0919.390.69
          
1968ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS57761174.1620.6015.455.15
1969ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS581141276.7222.0111.2010.81
1970ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS49771243.3625.3716.159.23
1971ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS651361413.7521.7510.4011.35
1972ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS601151419.6823.6612.3511.32
1973ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS911071397.3715.3613.062.30
1974ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS851361472.8017.3310.836.50
1975ESPOSITO, PHILCBOS77951306.3416.9713.753.21
1976ESPOSITO, PHILCNYR101611200.3511.8819.68-7.79
1977ESPOSITO, PHILCNYR99711266.1612.7917.83-5.04
1978ESPOSITO, PHILCNYR83611212.5714.6119.88-5.27
1979ESPOSITO, PHILCNYR79781229.2015.5615.76-0.20
1980ESPOSITO, PHILCNYR89761251.1214.0616.46-2.40
1981ESPOSITO, PHILCNYR4734548.0111.6616.12-4.46
14   1040123717411.5916.7414.082.67
          
1968MIKITA, STANCCHI76731296.9417.0617.77-0.70
1969MIKITA, STANCCHI70871232.4017.6114.173.44
1970MIKITA, STANCCHI47761239.1826.3716.3110.06
1971MIKITA, STANCCHI39601038.7426.6317.319.32
1972MIKITA, STANCCHI46621133.5324.6418.286.36
1973MIKITA, STANCCHI3566869.1924.8313.1711.66
1974MIKITA, STANCCHI46701251.8727.2117.889.33
1975MIKITA, STANCCHI50641123.8522.4817.564.92
1976MIKITA, STANCCHI3935692.1117.7519.77-2.03
1977MIKITA, STANCCHI4839809.8016.8720.76-3.89
1978MIKITA, STANCCHI43611099.1125.5618.027.54
1979MIKITA, STANCCHI4952937.3719.1318.031.10
1980MIKITA, STANCCHI810213.7626.7221.385.34
13   59675512937.8521.7117.144.57
          
1970CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI44451061.6424.1323.590.54
1971CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI49581123.2822.9219.373.56
1972CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI51731261.4924.7417.287.45
1973CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI59911220.2320.6813.417.27
1974CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI36711107.4930.7615.6015.17
1975CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI19981193.6062.8212.1850.64
1976CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI221051124.8851.1310.7140.42
1977CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI46851149.8425.0013.5311.47
1978CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI33801076.3332.6213.4519.16
1979CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI53651139.6821.5017.533.97
1980CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI44861050.1723.8712.2111.66
1981CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI45621052.7223.3916.986.41
1982CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI4068872.5321.8112.838.98
1983CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI46831068.8023.2312.8810.36
1984CLARKE, BOBBYCPHI4265882.9421.0213.587.44
15   629113516385.6126.0514.4411.61
          
1992BURE, PAVELRVAN5555950.9517.2917.290.00
1993BURE, PAVELRVAN57921144.5720.0812.447.64
1994BURE, PAVELRVAN75761205.6616.0815.860.21
1995BURE, PAVELLVAN4537655.9114.5817.73-3.15
1996BURE, PAVELLVAN1412214.1615.3017.85-2.55
1997BURE, PAVELRVAN6652907.8913.7617.46-3.70
1998BURE, PAVELRVAN73781289.8617.6716.541.13
1999BURE, PAVELRFLA912172.4819.1614.374.79
2000BURE, PAVELRFLA64891322.3820.6614.865.80
2001BURE, PAVELRFLA84821574.4018.7419.20-0.46
2002BURE, PAVELRNYR64591164.8418.2019.74-1.54
2003BURE, PAVELRNYR2428545.6122.7319.493.25
12   63067211148.7117.7016.591.11
Steve Yzerman
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
YEARESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
19848871117313,3316,52-3,19
198510285123212,0814,50-2,42
1986654173211,2617,86-6,59
19877372121916,7016,93-0,23
19886090100116,6911,135,56
1989107124132112,3510,661,69
1990116110135111,6512,29-0,64
19919290122813,3513,65-0,30
19926692117817,8512,815,05
199380113133716,7111,834,88
1994627393315,0412,782,27
1995273362022,9618,794,18
19964069105926,4915,3511,13
19975274123323,7216,677,05
19985255104620,1219,021,10
19995866115619,9317,522,42
20004977114323,3214,848,48
2001384275819,9418,041,90
2002314270022,5816,665,91
200371320128,7815,5013,28
2004354594827,0921,076,02
2006263361523,6518,635,02
Total132615102218616,7314,692,04
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
Joe Sakic

YEARESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
1989733789612,2724,21-11,94
199012181132410,9416,35-5,40
199111084127911,6215,22-3,60
19927378110215,1014,130,97
19937774111314,4515,04-0,59
19948072122915,3617,07-1,71
1995394673018,7215,872,85
19967185123817,4414,562,87
1997594993715,8819,12-3,24
19984545110724,5924,590,00
19995679121321,6715,366,31
20004676107023,2714,089,19
20014893132927,6914,2913,40
20025365132825,0620,444,63
2003454985919,0917,531,56
20044960116523,7719,414,36
20066373109617,4015,022,38
Total110811461901517,1616,590,57

Sergei Fedorov

YEARESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
19915465101518,8015,623,18
19925581109019,8113,456,36
1993397292223,6412,8110,84
199471119129518,2410,897,36
1995303662020,6517,213,44
19963887110529,0812,7016,38
19973968107527,5715,8111,76
199881828735,8615,9419,92
19994150105525,7321,104,63
2000495798620,1217,302,82
20014456106124,1218,955,17
20024868110122,9316,196,75
20034863115824,1318,395,75
20045146120723,6626,24-2,57
2006504887017,3918,12-0,72
Total6659341484622,3215,906,43

Peter Forsberg

YEARESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
1995264363924,5914,879,72
19966692123818,7513,455,30
1997457698721,9312,998,95
19986369120919,1917,521,67
19994673123026,7416,859,89
2000314078725,4019,695,72
20013760107529,0417,9111,13
20034294109226,0011,6214,38
2004223854624,8014,3610,44
2006305182427,4616,1511,31
Total408636962623,5915,148,46
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
PlayerYEARFranch.ESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
Guy Lafleur1972MTL45721072,15123,8314,898,93
Guy Lafleur1973MTL3854922,5324,2817,087,19
Guy Lafleur1974MTL52621030,97919,8316,633,20
Guy Lafleur1975MTL551071150,5920,9210,7510,17
Guy Lafleur1976MTL481161350,1628,1311,6416,49
Guy Lafleur1977MTL431321351,7631,4410,2421,20
Guy Lafleur1978MTL561291417,18225,3110,9914,32
Guy Lafleur1979MTL631191393,2822,1211,7110,41
Guy Lafleur1980MTL771171383,57817,9711,836,14
Guy Lafleur1981MTL3256736,89923,0313,169,87
Guy Lafleur1982MTL4376968,94622,5312,759,78
Guy Lafleur1983MTL6672997,76415,1213,861,26
Guy Lafleur1984MTL81671142,3214,1017,05-2,95
Guy Lafleur1985MTL129219,29818,2724,37-6,09
Guy Lafleur1989NYR4142766,94918,7118,260,45
Guy Lafleur1990COL3823453,80411,9419,73-7,79
Guy Lafleur1991COL4434721,03916,3921,21-4,82
         
Bryan Trottier1976NYI38661210,431,8518,3413,51
Bryan Trottier1977NYI42701114,08426,5315,9210,61
Bryan Trottier1978NYI491011223,22224,9612,1112,85
Bryan Trottier1979NYI471231270,7227,0410,3316,71
Bryan Trottier1980NYI62931305,79821,0614,047,02
Bryan Trottier1981NYI49981113,76122,7311,3611,36
Bryan Trottier1982NYI561261249,4422,319,9212,40
Bryan Trottier1983NYI56931228,4821,9413,218,73
Bryan Trottier1984NYI511211076,4421,118,9012,21
Bryan Trottier1985NYI6974969,81614,0613,110,95
Bryan Trottier1986NYI65941154,0117,7512,285,48
Bryan Trottier1987NYI69721198,817,3716,650,72
Bryan Trottier1988NYI52621029,72119,8016,613,19
Bryan Trottier1989NYI61541007,76516,5218,66-2,14
Bryan Trottier1990NYI4332737,32317,1523,04-5,89
Bryan Trottier1991PIT3136594,51619,1816,512,66
Bryan Trottier1992PIT5039745,2914,9119,11-4,20
Bryan Trottier1994PIT3018478,30615,9426,57-10,63
         
Wayne Gretzky1980EDM981131392,84914,2112,331,89
Wayne Gretzky1981EDM99140146614,8110,474,34
Wayne Gretzky1982EDM1091901510,5613,867,955,91
Wayne Gretzky1983EDM991591388,0814,028,735,29
Wayne Gretzky1984EDM1031791351,2413,127,555,57
Wayne Gretzky1985EDM901881472,1616,367,838,53
Wayne Gretzky1986EDM120191148012,337,754,58
Wayne Gretzky1987EDM931631441,59215,508,846,66
Wayne Gretzky1988EDM781171135,29614,569,704,85
Wayne Gretzky1989LA1261411305,79810,369,261,10
Wayne Gretzky1990LA1141221261,58611,0710,340,73
Wayne Gretzky1991LA1001301438,24214,3811,063,32
Wayne Gretzky1992LA98861244,60612,7014,47-1,77
Wayne Gretzky1993LA4854679,3214,1512,581,57
Wayne Gretzky1994LA109841344,43812,3316,01-3,67
Wayne Gretzky1995LA5434720,67213,3521,20-7,85
Wayne Gretzky1996STL82691212,8814,7917,58-2,79
Wayne Gretzky1997NYR72841407,5319,5516,762,79
Wayne Gretzky1998NYR80691389,917,3720,14-2,77
Wayne Gretzky1999NYR66431129,817,1226,27-9,16
         
Mark Messier1980EDM5444909,4516,8420,67-3,83
Mark Messier1981EDM77651041,91213,5316,03-2,50
Mark Messier1982EDM821031163,68214,1911,302,89
Mark Messier1983EDM841031146,83813,6511,132,52
Mark Messier1984EDM60100970,38916,179,706,47
Mark Messier1985EDM4654719,12515,6313,322,32
Mark Messier1986EDM4783824,98517,559,947,61
Mark Messier1987EDM70911099,94515,7112,093,63
Mark Messier1988EDM74951131,36115,2911,913,38
Mark Messier1989EDM76711011,81613,3114,25-0,94
Mark Messier1990EDM80991254,36215,6812,673,01
Mark Messier1991EDM4156785,56619,1614,035,13
Mark Messier1992NYR711021238,56217,4412,145,30
Mark Messier1993NYR80741124,17514,0515,19-1,14
Mark Messier1994NYR46711084,97623,5915,288,31
Mark Messier1995NYR3341717,00221,7317,494,24
Mark Messier1996NYR52811173,34422,5614,498,08
Mark Messier1997NYR63751234,40619,5916,463,13
Mark Messier1998VAN74641233,2816,6719,27-2,60
Mark Messier1999VAN4735828,3617,6223,67-6,04
Mark Messier2000VAN5641999,2417,8424,37-6,53
Mark Messier2001NYR76511067,6414,0520,93-6,89
Mark Messier2002NYR2322522,3422,7123,74-1,03
Mark Messier2003NYR4341992,1623,0724,20-1,13
Mark Messier2004NYR4548882,3619,6118,381,23
         
Mario Lemieux1985PIT114791171,57710,2814,83-4,55
Mario Lemieux1986PIT98921297,73313,2414,11-0,86
Mario Lemieux1987PIT69821056,95115,3212,892,43
Mario Lemieux1988PIT821051193,73114,5611,373,19
Mario Lemieux1989PIT1031441244,72812,088,643,44
Mario Lemieux1990PIT10284990,6699,7111,79-2,08
Mario Lemieux1991PIT2836439,50415,7012,213,49
Mario Lemieux1992PIT851121150,46413,5310,273,26
Mario Lemieux1993PIT661211003,1415,208,296,91
Mario Lemieux1994PIT2523344,93813,8015,00-1,20
Mario Lemieux1996PIT85951094,3112,8711,521,36
Mario Lemieux1997PIT751021231,216,4212,074,35
Mario Lemieux2001PIT4459710,7916,1512,054,11
Mario Lemieux2002PIT2020364,0818,2018,200,00
Mario Lemieux2003PIT76511101,4814,4921,60-7,10
Mario Lemieux2004PIT75154,722,1030,94-8,84
Mario Lemieux2006PIT2610319,812,3031,98-19,68
         
Jaromir Jagr1991PIT5753943,216,5517,80-1,25
Jaromir Jagr1992PIT68801008,6314,8312,612,22
Jaromir Jagr1993PIT58881117,71919,2712,706,57
Jaromir Jagr1994PIT7792126016,3613,702,67
Jaromir Jagr1995PIT3760731,08819,7612,187,57
Jaromir Jagr1996PIT841151309,04815,5811,384,20
Jaromir Jagr1997PIT65871044,79216,0712,014,06
Jaromir Jagr1998PIT60771370,622,8417,805,04
Jaromir Jagr1999PIT871041517,1317,4414,592,85
Jaromir Jagr2000PIT55801076,0419,5613,456,11
Jaromir Jagr2001PIT77961350,2717,5414,073,47
Jaromir Jagr2002WAS69691184,7317,1717,170,00
Jaromir Jagr2003WAS5762120321,1119,401,70
Jaromir Jagr2004NYR63581225,8419,4621,14-1,68
Jaromir Jagr2006NYR51841273,4624,9715,169,81
         
Eric Lindros1993PHI5785969,22917,0011,405,60
Eric Lindros1994PHI71871106,0415,5812,712,86
Eric Lindros1995PHI3764846,30822,8713,229,65
Eric Lindros1996PHI65911285,60319,7814,135,65
Eric Lindros1997PHI4576907,6620,1711,948,23
Eric Lindros1998PHI43571127,726,2319,786,44
Eric Lindros1999PHI42771167,2427,7915,1612,63
Eric Lindros2000PHI3647914,6525,4119,465,95
Eric Lindros2002NYR56751147,6820,4915,305,19
Eric Lindros2003NYR53581235,2523,3121,302,01
Eric Lindros2004NYR2431464,119,3414,974,37
Eric Lindros2006TOR2219369,9316,8219,47-2,66
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
PlayerYEARFranch.ESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
Jari Kurri1981EDM65911113,7517,1312,244,90
Jari Kurri1982EDM5896997,40817,2010,396,81
Jari Kurri1983EDM681151132,5616,669,856,81
Jari Kurri1984EDM781161024,57613,148,834,30
Jari Kurri1985EDM641401170,33618,298,369,93
Jari Kurri1986EDM961411278,18613,319,074,25
Jari Kurri1987EDM781131217,70615,6110,784,84
Jari Kurri1988EDM73981156,0815,8411,804,04
Jari Kurri1989EDM75941116,51614,8911,883,01
Jari Kurri1990EDM65831118,83217,2113,483,73
Jari Kurri1992LA80561037,11112,9618,52-5,56
Jari Kurri1993LA66851104,78616,7413,003,74
Jari Kurri1994LA89651177,90213,2318,12-4,89
Jari Kurri1995LA3619500,19413,8926,33-12,43
Jari Kurri1996NYR5741918,17216,1122,39-6,29
Jari Kurri1997ANA56431074,93819,2025,00-5,80
Jari Kurri1998COL2228720,332,7425,737,02
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
YEARPLAYERPOSFranch.ESGAESGFTOT ES MINTOT ES MIN per ESGATOT ES MIN per ESGFDIF
1978BOSSY, MIKERNYI42731044.1224.8614.3010.56
1979BOSSY, MIKERNYI411041190.8829.0511.4517.60
1980BOSSY, MIKERNYI51791160.0322.7514.688.06
1981BOSSY, MIKERNYI60971208.5420.1412.467.68
1982BOSSY, MIKERNYI511201203.8423.6010.0313.57
1983BOSSY, MIKERNYI66931279.0119.3813.755.63
1984BOSSY, MIKERNYI461121017.0622.119.0813.03
1985BOSSY, MIKERNYI651021103.7516.9810.826.16
1986BOSSY, MIKERNYI751051253.6016.7111.944.78
1987BOSSY, MIKERNYI5952880.4914.9216.93-2.01
10   55693711341.3120.4012.108.29
          
1972DIONNE, MARCELCDET63631114.7017.6917.690.00
1973DIONNE, MARCELCDET74701198.9716.2017.13-0.93
1974DIONNE, MARCELCDET95641172.7512.3418.32-5.98
1975DIONNE, MARCELCDET110951426.5612.9715.02-2.05
1976DIONNE, MARCELCLA79811292.6416.3615.960.40
1977DIONNE, MARCELCLA77871388.2418.0315.962.07
1978DIONNE, MARCELCLA72641184.0516.4518.50-2.06
1979DIONNE, MARCELCLA791021360.5617.2213.343.88
1980DIONNE, MARCELCLA751101422.9618.9712.946.04
1981DIONNE, MARCELCLA721271356.2418.8410.688.16
1982DIONNE, MARCELCLA101911250.1112.3813.74-1.36
1983DIONNE, MARCELCLA82921214.4014.8113.201.61
1984DIONNE, MARCELCLA6674950.2714.4012.841.56
1985DIONNE, MARCELCLA78891135.4414.5612.761.80
1986DIONNE, MARCELCLA98761165.3611.8915.33-3.44
1987DIONNE, MARCELCLA6860950.4013.9815.84-1.86
1987DIONNE, MARCELCNYR157173.1811.5524.74-13.19
1987DIONNE, MARCELCLA/NYR83671123.5513.5416.77-3.23
1988DIONNE, MARCELCNYR4127735.0617.9327.22-9.30
1989DIONNE, MARCELCNYR2317400.4117.4123.55-6.14
18   1368139620892.2915.2714.970.31
          
1981STASTNY, PETERCCOL87981280.0514.7113.061.65
1982STASTNY, PETERCCOL1181081349.3611.4412.49-1.06
1983STASTNY, PETERCCOL851131212.3814.2610.733.53
1984STASTNY, PETERCCOL911131300.0014.2911.502.78
1985STASTNY, PETERCCOL771001224.0815.9012.243.66
1986STASTNY, PETERCCOL88901210.7613.7613.450.31
1987STASTNY, PETERCCOL82611068.0313.0217.51-4.48
1988STASTNY, PETERCCOL66681121.6817.0016.500.50
1989STASTNY, PETERCCOL83601058.3312.7517.64-4.89
1990STASTNY, PETERCCOL8944909.6610.2220.67-10.45
1990STASTNY, PETERCNJ87140.9317.6220.13-2.52
1990STASTNY, PETERCCOL/NJ97511050.5810.8320.60-9.77
1991STASTNY, PETERCNJ53531010.2419.0619.060.00
1992STASTNY, PETERCNJ6167996.3416.3314.871.46
1993STASTNY, PETERCNJ4136665.0116.2218.47-2.25
1994STASTNY, PETERCSTL108197.8119.7824.73-4.95
1995STASTNY, PETERCSTL2362.8531.4320.9510.48
15   1041102914807.5014.2214.39-0.17

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08-07-2013, 08:31 AM
  #124
mydogsparty
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The main reason I liked overpass's data that I linked to better than pnep's is because of the $Pts column. He states that "$Pts number is a number I calculated that adds the players ESGF and ESGA to a league-average team for the season and estimates how many regular season points it would add to the team."

I'd be curious to see those numbers ($Pts) for Messier & Trottier.

edit: Also, I'm not sure how to read pnep's chart. Are the commas = to decimals? Are those supposed to be averages at the bottom of SOME of the ones you listed?


Last edited by mydogsparty: 08-07-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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