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08-06-2013, 09:26 PM
  #251
Brian Boyle
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Don't get me wrong pal, I like Miller and I had no major issue with drafting McIIrath either even though the rule of thought is "you draft the best player available that early in the draft(Fowler?, etc). I think Miller can eventually become a top 6 player and I'm praying that McIIrath will fill a big void this team has had since Beuk was forced to retire
Then what point are you making?

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08-06-2013, 09:30 PM
  #252
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Nothing. Like every other prospect there's a wide spectrum of outcomes for them.
Man were the avs stupid to draft that mackinnon kid.
We don't know if he'll ever make the nhl.

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08-06-2013, 09:32 PM
  #253
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Then what point are you making?
The general point that was being made earlier is that our drafts haven't been all that much better since Gorton got involved in 2007. Personally, I don't have any point here at all. I was just wondering what your opinion was of Miller and McIIrath.

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08-06-2013, 09:36 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
The general point that was being made earlier is that our drafts haven't been all that much better since Gorton got involved in 2007. Personally, I don't have any point here at all. I was just wondering what your opinion was of Miller and McIIrath.
What teams have drafted better than us in that time?

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08-06-2013, 09:42 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by CaliDubiZib View Post
What teams have drafted better than us in that time?
I didn't rip apart our drafting since Gorton took over, Bob Marley NYR did!

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08-06-2013, 09:44 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The thing about Sather not drafting an elite talent in decades is very real, and very scary.
well outside of franchises that keep picking in the top 10 where are these teams that are finding all this elite talent? Pretty hard to stock up on this talent when the highest you've drafted in 10 years is 10th overall....

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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
You asking that question is like the pot calling the kettle black. What exactly are McIIrath and Miller destined to be might I ask?
For all I know Miller and McI will never see the NHL again but the guy I responded to was talking out of his ass with his comments "McIlrath is developing like a 7th defenseman" and "Miller is developing like a bottom 6er" I never said they're locks for anything but everything he said is just stupid and it's clear he doesn't watch any AHL games or has never seen these players. So yes I'm questioning if he pays attention to Ranger hockey, and him calling Callahan not an impact player is warranted criticism. So I'm not calling any kettle black.

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08-06-2013, 11:24 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
well outside of franchises that keep picking in the top 10 where are these teams that are finding all this elite talent? Pretty hard to stock up on this talent when the highest you've drafted in 10 years is 10th overall....



For all I know Miller and McI will never see the NHL again but the guy I responded to was talking out of his ass with his comments "McIlrath is developing like a 7th defenseman" and "Miller is developing like a bottom 6er" I never said they're locks for anything but everything he said is just stupid and it's clear he doesn't watch any AHL games or has never seen these players. So yes I'm questioning if he pays attention to Ranger hockey, and him calling Callahan not an impact player is warranted criticism. So I'm not calling any kettle black.
Point well taken!

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08-07-2013, 12:06 AM
  #258
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I'm done complaining about Glen Sather. Get over it already, it is what it is. 29 other teams out there. Of course, not sure you're gonna find a winner with most of them either.

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08-07-2013, 06:08 AM
  #259
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The Flyers recorded their draft meetings

http://video.flyers.nhl.com/videocen...ed-share-video

They really liked Morin

The Rangers did this in 2003 and 2004. Someone at MSG forgot to blur out the names on the board when the first episode appeared in 2003.

Don Maloney and Tom Renney were shocked and happy Philly took Jeff Carter one pick ahead of them. They were afraid Philly might take Jessiman.


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08-07-2013, 07:25 AM
  #260
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Don Maloney and Tom Renney were shocked and happy Philly took Jeff Carter one pick ahead of them. They were afraid Philly might take Jessiman.
This hurts my heart

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08-07-2013, 07:49 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
The general point that was being made earlier is that our drafts haven't been all that much better since Gorton got involved in 2007. Personally, I don't have any point here at all. I was just wondering what your opinion was of Miller and McIIrath.
I think our drafts have been good both before and after Gorton got involved.

I only object against Gorton being seen as a big upgrade against what we had before. I am not sold at all on that description. You can critizise the regime pre-Gorton -- if you look at 1st round picks (and loosing Blackburn does not help that record). Why you should only look at first round picks before that is beyond me.

The guys before Gorton drafted the core of this team, or players that was moved for the core of this team (AA and Dubinsky). From 2000 to 2006 we got: Hank, Tyutin, Staal, Callahan, Korpikoski, Dubi, AA, Sauer, Dawes, Zidlicky, Prucha, Ortmayer, Pyatt, Hollweg, Dom Moore and Corey Potter, along with a few others.

Seven drafts, we where without a 1st rounder in two of them and lost another to injury. We got 1 franchise player, 4 top-4 D's (not counting Potter who played alot for EDM last season), our captain, 4 top 2 line forwards. That is eight very good players in seven drafts (Hank, Staal, Cally, Dubi, AA, Zidlicky, Sauer and Korpikoski). We on avg got a -- real elite player -- every other draft (Staal, Hank and Cally). On top of that we got around 10 players who came in and played alot in this league. 1.5 depth players per draft.

Let me tell you, that is a very good record. Nothing else. If you can keep that up, you will ice a very good team in the NHL.

To keep the ratio we had before Gorton with Gorton, quite many of the players that are on the verge now must just make it and become top 6 forwards or top 4 D's. At least 4 of Kreider, Miller, McIlrath, Thomas, Fasth, Skjei, Nieves, MSC, Andersson or the players drafted this year. I would probably bet on that exactly four of those guys will become that good, but its perfectly possible that its only 3 and it might be 5. I would be suprised if it was 6. So I do think its hard to argue that Gorton even have done a better job than the guys before him. Time will tell.

With that said, I am perfectly content with Gorton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
This hurts my heart
After not bothering 1000's of posts in relation to Jessiman, I once and for all would like to state that people who didn't follow the NHL closely from say 1997-2003 should not comment on the pick of Hugh Jessiman.

Just a few random observations:
-You could count the good small players in the league on one hand, MSL, Steve Sullivan, Marty Straka, and???

-The number of players 5'11 or smaller that contribute today in the NHL must be so many more than they where in 2003.

-Skill had very marginal impact unless it came from Forsberg, Sakic, Modano, Yzerman, a younger Lecavalier or guys like that.

Calgary made the Stanley Cup Finals with the following forwards (in scoring order):
Iginla
Conroy
Gelinas
Nilsson
Donovan
Nieminen
Simon
Yelle
Saprykin
Lombardi
Oliwa
Kobasaw
Lowry (!)

A half talented forward 5'11 to 6'1 had about zero value from a contenders point of view. You see 5-6 of them on every roster nowadays.

-While we had come to a point where every other team in this league had reverted to a no-misstake trap/extreme havoc style, while the PO's had turned into pre-historic wars on ice, while size and not making misstakes where all that mattered -- we drafted a 6'6 winger with good attitude, toughness and who could actually play the game. Didn't look flawed when skating.

-We drafted Jessiman at a time drafting Zach Parise or Mike Richards more or less were seen as drafting a KHLer today, ie picking someone with a huge risk connected to them (the risk of them not making it because of their size being compareable to the risk of a Russian staying in the KHL nowadays).

-Go back to the drafts of which the kids entered and played in the NHL during the trapping era, how many good forwards smaller than 6'1 made it in the NHL? They are more or less rare, or players 5'11-6' who are "bigger" if you get what I mean...

You just cannot compare a draft pick made during the trapping era in 2003 with how the same player looked two years later in a completely changed game.


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Old
08-07-2013, 08:13 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Its called criticism. Deal with it. I havent met one successful person that hasnt. I don't see people over here ******** all over these kids. I see plenty of legitimate questions and concerns followed by snippy rebuttals about how these guys are young, or misused, or waiting to break out. Excuses. Whenever your counterargument is "Well, it could be worse," you've already lost the argument. I think Clark is doing an OK job given the circumstances, which involve a GM consistently stealing money out of his budget to pay people not to play hockey.

OK jobs dont win championships.
I was only playing a little devil's advocate BRB. You don't need to go off the deep end on me.

I will say this in response to your post...you were and probably still are a pretty big defender of Torts and his decisions. You mention how Clark has done an OK job and you criticize him for it...but his OK work helped contribute to a team that made it to the ECF in 2012, something you made sure you had reminded us of on more than one occasion during this past season when Torts was being criticized as part of his defense. The same defense works for Clark then.

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08-07-2013, 08:18 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by 3rdlineglory View Post
It's not the GM, it's the owner. Dolan just gives out blank checks to Sather instead of facilitating a proper rebuild. That's why small market teams usually are the ones to tank. They don't have the financial resources to artificially sustain a dying window. Then again Lundqvist's and to an extent Jagr's play were also a factor. IMO the first few years after the 2004 lockout should have also been in rebuild mode, but instead we went with a "competitive" rebuild . Some of you anti-Sather crusaders should look a little more in depth than give yourself another pat on the back. Blame Sather, how easy.
Sather makes the hockey decisions. It's a pretty simple concept, actually.

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Old
08-07-2013, 08:32 AM
  #264
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I think looking at 1st round picks is important, and Rockstrom's track record for 1st round picks is pretty horrifying;

2000 - no 1st rounder

2001 - 10th overall - Dan Blackburn - not Rockstrom's fault that Blackburn's career ended early, but IMHO, unless you have a chance at getting the next Brodeur, drafting a goalie in the 1st round is not a good idea - their futures are just too hard to predict. Lundqvist was drafted in the 7th round - you just never know with goalies.

2002 - no 1st rounder

2003 - 12th overall - I don't even want to type his name, I hate him so much.

2004 - 6th overall - Alvero Montoya - another goalie in the first round - why? It's just bad drafting.

19th overall - Lauri Korpikoski - not a bad pick, but his ELC was WAY too pricey (That's on Sather, not Rockstrom I know)

2005 - 12th overall - Marc Staal - Finally! A first rounder that actually makes sense!

2006 - 21st overall - Bob Sanguinetti - was supposed to be what MDZ is - didn't pan out at all.

By contrast, since Gorton took over

2007 - 17th overall - Alexei Cherepanov - had the poor kid not tragically passed away, we most likely wouldn't be having the scoring issues we have had for a long time.

2008 - 20th overall - Michael Del Zotto - still figuring out his game, but will certainly be the solid top 4 PMD that Sanguinetti was supposed to be.

2009 - 19th overall - Chris Kreider - at worst, he will be at least as good as Korpikoski and most likely will be way better

2010 - 10th overall - Dylan McIlrath - Like so many others, I wasn't a fan of this pick. I only hope the kid proves me wrong.

2011 - 15th overall - JT Miller - see Chris Kreider.

2012 - 28th overall - Brady Skjei - we won't know what he is capable of for a couple of years yet.

To me, Gorton's picks have been a LOT better and for the most part, he didn't get to pick nearly as high as Rockstrom (with the exception of McIlrath in 2010).

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08-07-2013, 08:37 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
well outside of franchises that keep picking in the top 10 where are these teams that are finding all this elite talent? Pretty hard to stock up on this talent when the highest you've drafted in 10 years is 10th overall....
Plenty of other teams have drafted franchise-type players outside the top 10. What you're trying to convey here is a bunch of ********, and an easy way out.

The Rangers have drafted 2 of these types of players in the last 30 years. Amonte and Kovalev. And they played their best hockey outside of this organization.

The inability to draft and develop blue chip forwards has haunted this franchise for decades. You'd think a crappy excuse like "Well, its tough to do when you're drafting outside the top 10," wouldnt fly by now.

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08-07-2013, 09:02 AM
  #266
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Where the hell did this notion come from that McIlrath projects as a 6/7 defender? My god, people around here get more and more gullible by the day.

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08-07-2013, 09:10 AM
  #267
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Where the hell did this notion come from that McIlrath projects as a 6/7 defender? My god, people around here get more and more gullible by the day.
People who haven't seen him play.

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08-07-2013, 09:16 AM
  #268
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I was only playing a little devil's advocate BRB. You don't need to go off the deep end on me.

I will say this in response to your post...you were and probably still are a pretty big defender of Torts and his decisions. You mention how Clark has done an OK job and you criticize him for it...but his OK work helped contribute to a team that made it to the ECF in 2012, something you made sure you had reminded us of on more than one occasion during this past season when Torts was being criticized as part of his defense. The same defense works for Clark then.
One of the reasons I defended Tortorella is because I felt he took these rosters as far - and in 2011-2012's case, further - than they should've gone. This notion that we have drafted great over the last 6-10 years is tied at the hip to the fanbase overvaluing young players. The reality check of just how poorly the Rangers have done in the first round is staring you right in the face, and goes back far, far longer.

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08-07-2013, 09:19 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
well outside of franchises that keep picking in the top 10 where are these teams that are finding all this elite talent? Pretty hard to stock up on this talent when the highest you've drafted in 10 years is 10th overall....
They find them. Look at Boston's draft's in the mid 2000s.
2003:

Jeff Carter (PHI 1/11)
Zack Parise (NJ 1/17)
Ryan Getzlaf (ANA 1/19)
Ryan Kesler (VAN 1/23)
Mike Richards (PHI 1/24)
Corey Perry (ANA 1/28)
Loui Erikkson (DAL 2/33)
Patrice Bergeron (BOS 2/45)
Shea Weber (NAS 2/49)


2004:

David Krejci (BOS-2/63)
Johan Franzen (DET-3/97)
Kris Versteeg (BOS-5/134)

2005 (A bit flukey with the lottery system)

Anze Kopitar (LA-1/11)
Tukka Rask (TOR 1/21)
Kris Letang (PIT 2/62)
Jonathan Quick (LA 3/72)
Keith Yandle (PHO 4/105)
Patrick Hornqvist (NAS 7/230)

2006

Michael Grabner (VAN 1/14)
Calude Giroux (PHI 1/22)
Brad Marchand (BOS 3/71)

2007

Ryan McDonagh (MON 1/12)
Kevin Shattenkirk (COL 1/14)
Max Pacioretty (MON 1/22)
P.K. Subban (MON 2/43)
Jamie Benn (DAL 5/129)

2008

Erik Karlsson (OTT 1/15)
John Carson (WAS 1/27)
Derek Stepan (NYR 2/51)
Travis Hamonic (NYI 2/53)

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08-07-2013, 09:20 AM
  #270
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Who are "franchise forwards" drafted later that are playing right now?
Datsyuk, Zetterberg
Giroux
Benn
Bergeron, Krejci
Alfredsson
St. Louis
Parise


Great group of players, not very long though

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08-07-2013, 09:23 AM
  #271
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Where the hell did this notion come from that McIlrath projects as a 6/7 defender? My god, people around here get more and more gullible by the day.
Not sure why you disagree. He was drafted 3 years ago and hasn't played a single shift in the NHL. Therefore his upside is a 6/7 defender at this point.

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08-07-2013, 09:27 AM
  #272
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Gordie Clark was elevated to head amateur scout after the 2004-05 lockout. He joined the Rangers as a scout after the Islanders(Wang)didn't renew his contract. In the summer of 2007,he was named director of player personnel. In 2007,the Rangers named Jim Hammett as head amateur scout but he left after one year for Tampa Bay. The Rangers never named another head amateur scout. Gorton joined the Rangers as a pro scout in the summer of 07 after the Bruins fired him. He was named assistant director of player personnel in 2008 and held that position for 3 years. In 2011,Gorton was elevated to AGM. 08-09 was the first year of Gorton having a greater role. The Rangers have taken American and Canadian boys in the draft. Kreider. McIlrath. Miller. Skjei. Bourque. Thomas. St. Croix. Nieves. Tambellini. College bound and CHL players. Traded for McDonagh. Traded for Moore. They like the Swedes too. Erixon,Lindberg and Fasth. Clark and Gorton work together. They were together in Boston before Clark joined Milbury on Long Island.

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08-07-2013, 09:50 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by IHeartMattCooke View Post
2009 - 19th overall - Chris Kreider - at worst, he will be at least as good as Korpikoski and most likely will be way better

2011 - 15th overall - JT Miller - see Chris Kreider.
How is Kreider at worst going to become as good as Korpikoski? Isn't the worst case scenario that he completely stalls his development right now and never becomes more than what he currently is - not even NHL calibre. He has a long way to go only to catch Korpikoski, let alone pass him.

This concerns Miller as well, but he is younger than Kreider and while he was about as bad as Kreider the past season he at least didn't look like a deer in the headlights on the ice.

I'm not saying either of them is a bust or anything, but neither are out of the woods yet.

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08-07-2013, 09:50 AM
  #274
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Gordie Clark was elevated to head amateur scout after the 2004-05 lockout. He joined the Rangers as a scout after the Islanders(Wang)didn't renew his contract. In the summer of 2007,he was named director of player personnel. In 2007,the Rangers named Jim Hammett as head amateur scout but he left after one year for Tampa Bay. The Rangers never named another head amateur scout. Gorton joined the Rangers as a pro scout in the summer of 07 after the Bruins fired him. He was named assistant director of player personnel in 2008 and held that position for 3 years. In 2011,Gorton was elevated to AGM. 08-09 was the first year of Gorton having a greater role. The Rangers have taken American and Canadian boys in the draft. Kreider. McIlrath. Miller. Skjei. Bourque. Thomas. St. Croix. Nieves. Tambellini. College bound and CHL players. Traded for McDonagh. Traded for Moore. They like the Swedes too. Erixon,Lindberg and Fasth. Clark and Gorton work together. They were together in Boston before Clark joined Milbury on Long Island.
Why was Gorton fired by Boston?

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08-07-2013, 09:56 AM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Gordie Clark was elevated to head amateur scout after the 2004-05 lockout. He joined the Rangers as a scout after the Islanders(Wang)didn't renew his contract. In the summer of 2007,he was named director of player personnel. In 2007,the Rangers named Jim Hammett as head amateur scout but he left after one year for Tampa Bay. The Rangers never named another head amateur scout. Gorton joined the Rangers as a pro scout in the summer of 07 after the Bruins fired him. He was named assistant director of player personnel in 2008 and held that position for 3 years. In 2011,Gorton was elevated to AGM. 08-09 was the first year of Gorton having a greater role. The Rangers have taken American and Canadian boys in the draft. Kreider. McIlrath. Miller. Skjei. Bourque. Thomas. St. Croix. Nieves. Tambellini. College bound and CHL players. Traded for McDonagh. Traded for Moore. They like the Swedes too. Erixon,Lindberg and Fasth. Clark and Gorton work together. They were together in Boston before Clark joined Milbury on Long Island.
I'd say that the Rangers focus on Canadian, Merican, and Swedish players is primarily an outcome of the shift in talent production of later years rather than some sort of concious organizational decision.

The KHL locks up the borderline Eastern European talent and basically every major European hockey nation bar Sweden has seen a decline in talent production. Sweden and the USA is OTOH seeing a steady incline in talent. Drafting more Swedes and Americans is a natural consequence of this.

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