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Old
08-07-2013, 09:59 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
I'd say that the Rangers focus on Canadian, Merican, and Swedish players is primarily an outcome of the shift in talent production of later years rather than some sort of concious organizational decision.

The KHL locks up the borderline Eastern European talent and basically every major European hockey nation bar Sweden has seen a decline in talent production. Sweden and the USA is OTOH seeing a steady incline in talent. Drafting more Swedes and Americans is a natural consequence of this.
It may or may not be a conscious decision, but in my opinion, those are the 3 countries that produce the most complete hockey players in the world.

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08-07-2013, 10:02 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It may or may not be a conscious decision, but in my opinion, those are the 3 countries that produce the most complete hockey players in the world.
For the most part, I agree with you. Unfortunately, they are (3) of the more heavily scouted areas in the world for the same reasons. It's harder to find late round gems from Canada or the US.

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08-07-2013, 10:05 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
For the most part, I agree with you. Unfortunately, they are (3) of the more heavily scouted areas in the world for the same reasons. It's harder to find late round gems from Canada or the US.
The Rangers have been able to find some good players after the 1st round over the past decade. Its their first round picks that leave a bit to be desired. The jury is out on Kreider, Miller, and McIlrath, but all 3 are going to have to make a consistent and meaningful NHL contribution for me to change my opinion.

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08-07-2013, 10:09 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The Rangers have been able to find some good players after the 1st round over the past decade. Its their first round picks that leave a bit to be desired. The jury is out on Kreider, Miller, and McIlrath, but all 3 are going to have to make a consistent and meaningful NHL contribution for me to change my opinion.
I agree. Over the past 15 years, the Rangers 1st rounder, overall, have been lacking. Although like you said, it is a bit harsh to say the drafting hasn't been at the very least average over the past 9 years or so.

2013 - No 1st rounder
2012 - Skjei
2011 - Miller
2010 - McIlrath
2009 - Kreider
2008 - Del Zotto
2007 - Cheraponov
2006 - Sanguinetti
2005 - Staal

Obviously Skjei, McIlrath, Kreider and Miller are too young to judge but they all look like they will, at the very least, be NHLers. Cheraponov (RIP) and Sanguinetti would then be the only 1st rounder not to make the NHL. Not bad.

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08-07-2013, 10:26 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Why was Gorton fired by Boston?
When they fired O'Connell at the end of 2006 they promoted Gorton from the AGM role. The B's brought in Chiarelli 2 months after they let Gorton take over as interim GM. Gorton stayed and ran the draft and stayed through the 06/07 season before Chia had a major house cleaning to get his own people in place.

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08-07-2013, 10:34 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
When they fired O'Connell at the end of 2006 they promoted Gorton from the AGM role. The B's brought in Chiarelli 2 months after they let Gorton take over as interim GM. Gorton stayed and ran the draft and stayed through the 06/07 season before Chia had a major house cleaning to get his own people in place.
Figured it was something like that. The fruits of Gorton's labor was not yet apparent. Chiarelli's team did a good job with the assets Gorton lined up.

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08-07-2013, 10:41 AM
  #282
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Chiarelli wanted to bring in his own people. Gorton interviewed for the PHX job in 07 which Maloney got. Then he was fired in Boston. Gorton was from the MOC regime and he was passed over for the GM job. Tough situation. Darcy Regier was Maloney's AGM with the Islanders. He was passed over for Milbury. Regier got the Buffalo job but he wasn't long for the Islanders if he didn't get another job. Gorton worked for Harry Sinden in Boston. Slats and Sinden are very close friends. Clark and Sinden worked together in Boston. Gorton and Clark are with Slats now.

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08-07-2013, 11:16 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Obviously Skjei, McIlrath, Kreider and Miller are too young to judge but they all look like they will, at the very least, be NHLers. Cheraponov (RIP) and Sanguinetti would then be the only 1st rounder not to make the NHL. Not bad.
Sanguinetti made it to the NHL. He established himself as a full-time 3rd pairing D with the Hurricanes last season. Then, he left for more lucrative pastures in the KHL.

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08-07-2013, 11:19 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by IHeartMattCooke View Post
I think looking at 1st round picks is important, and Rockstrom's track record for 1st round picks is pretty horrifying;
Rocker was never mere than a European scout...

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08-07-2013, 11:29 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Sanguinetti made it to the NHL. He established himself as a full-time 3rd pairing D with the Hurricanes last season. Then, he left for more lucrative pastures in the KHL.
He wasn't exactly a solid 3rd pairing guy. But you made a good point, even Sanguinetti, who was the worst pick, made the NHL. That's a pretty good track record for 1st rounder considering it is still a mediocre percentage that make the NHL from that round.

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08-07-2013, 11:43 AM
  #286
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Kreider is still considered a rookie in the NHL. Miller was 19 last season. McIlrath has yet to play an NHL game and the jury is out on them? LOL.

The season can't start soon enough.

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08-07-2013, 11:43 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Flyers recorded their draft meetings

http://video.flyers.nhl.com/videocen...ed-share-video

They really liked Morin

The Rangers did this in 2003 and 2004. Someone at MSG forgot to blur out the names on the board when the first episode appeared in 2003.

Don Maloney and Tom Renney were shocked and happy Philly took Jeff Carter one pick ahead of them. They were afraid Philly might take Jessiman.
Morin ahead of Ristolainen and Nurse is nuts, IMO. Still think that when all is said and done, Ristolainen will be the second best defender to come out of the draft. Jones obviously takes the top spot.

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08-07-2013, 11:45 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Morin ahead of Ristolainen and Nurse is nuts, IMO. Still think that when all is said and done, Ristolainen will be the second best defender to come out of the draft. Jones obviously takes the top spot.
I like the big Russian kid the Sabres drafted I believe whose name escapes me at the moment.

Morin fits their style of play though. You can bash the Flyers for all sorts of things, but they have a blueprint for the types of players they like to get and bring in.

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08-07-2013, 11:47 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by puckrush View Post
Kreider is still considered a rookie in the NHL. Miller was 19 last season. McIlrath has yet to play an NHL game and the jury is out on them? LOL.

The season can't start soon enough.
Yes. I don't know why you find that funny, other than not understanding what the phrase means.

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08-07-2013, 11:47 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
He wasn't exactly a solid 3rd pairing guy. But you made a good point, even Sanguinetti, who was the worst pick, made the NHL. That's a pretty good track record for 1st rounder considering it is still a mediocre percentage that make the NHL from that round.
It's too bad Sangs signed overseas. We had the potential this season to see 6 of our last 7 1st round picks playing in one game, with only Cherepanov as the exception.

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08-07-2013, 11:48 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Morin ahead of Ristolainen and Nurse is nuts, IMO. Still think that when all is said and done, Ristolainen will be the second best defender to come out of the draft. Jones obviously takes the top spot.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Risto becomes this drafts best overall dmen when all is said and done. That includes Jones as well. I was dumbfounded when both Morin + Nurse went before him.

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08-07-2013, 11:50 AM
  #292
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It's too bad Sangs signed overseas. We had the potential this season to see 6 of our last 7 1st round picks playing in one game, with only Cherepanov as the exception.
Yeah. Too soft still. He never was able to add the muscle mass and the drive to compete hard enough in the dirty areas of the ice. Oh well. They got Fast + a 2nd which helped bring in Erixon who eventually helped bring in Nash. Can't complain

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08-07-2013, 11:50 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I like the big Russian kid the Sabres drafted I believe whose name escapes me at the moment.

Morin fits their style of play though. You can bash the Flyers for all sorts of things, but they have a blueprint for the types of players they like to get and bring in.
Zadorov. Went about where I thought he would.

Ristolainen has a nice element of physicality in his game. I think he would have been a great fit, especially when you consider that outside of Timonen and Streit -- who aren't getting any younger -- they're very thin when it comes to defenders with offensive upside.

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08-07-2013, 11:52 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Zadorov. Went about where I thought he would.

Ristolainen has a nice element of physicality in his game. I think he would have been a great fit, especially when you consider that outside of Timonen and Streit -- who aren't getting any younger -- they're very thin when it comes to defenders with offensive upside.
Can't argue with that. I'm not saying I liked that selection in that spot, but they have a definite blue-print.

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08-07-2013, 12:02 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I agree. Over the past 15 years, the Rangers 1st rounder, overall, have been lacking. Although like you said, it is a bit harsh to say the drafting hasn't been at the very least average over the past 9 years or so.

Obviously Skjei, McIlrath, Kreider and Miller are too young to judge but they all look like they will, at the very least, be NHLers. Cheraponov (RIP) and Sanguinetti would then be the only 1st rounder not to make the NHL. Not bad.
I haven't looked at our draft record over the last 15 years,

But from 2000 to 2006 it was way above avg, and I just concluded that our new scouting staff even could match (!) the remarkable job our previous scouting staff did if the kids we have in the pipe right now pans out.

And if you look at the 2000 to 2006 record, it is definitely above avg. You can count on it. There are 30x10 top 2 line forwards and top 4 D's in the NHL. Say a career is on avg 15 years, that means that 30x10/15y/30teams = 0.6 top two unit players are drafted every year on avg per team. And 30x8(bottom two lines and 3rd pairing)/15y/30teams = 0.53 third and forth line forwards and third pairing D's per year on avg per team. The old scouting staff got 1+ top 2 unit players per draft and +1 bottom two line and 3rd pairing D per draft. There are some rough edges in that calculation (the avg career is not 15 years), but it evens out pretty well given the undrafted players and the large amount of players that pass through the league (at basically all positions) playing below like 200 games over the course of their careers (Dawes and Prucha are good examples of that, nobody counts them as first line players but between them they probably have 300 games on 1/2 line players). Its reflected in games played per draft pick per team stats. We rank very high there.

Also, as regards our first rounders, I think people to start with have way too high expectations on them. Its been a bit better lately, given the influnce of youth and especially a new type of players in the NHL after the lockout, but for some periods around 1/3 of all first round picks become good NHLers, and the rest busts completely or just become the typical guy you can pick up for a 1m per every year for depth.

Also, don't count your chicken before they are hatched. Go back and check the board, who thought that Montoya or Sanguinetti would "bust" like 6-12 month's before we gave up on them? I can tell you that, nobody. Blackburn was a tremendous pick, before he got hurt. He was held higher than Stepan. Lets not get into Chere. What have Stepan done so far that Mike York had not at the same age (ok maybe a few things... )? Kreider, JT Miller and McIlrath have done nothing so far. MDZ? Look at Mike Sauer. He went from a bust to looking like a super pick to becoming ... a bust?

Between MDZ, Stepan, Kreider, JT Miller, McIlrath and Skjei, knock on wood, things will go both ways, count on it.

Odds are definitely that some kids will come from behind and make it too, at least if the current scouting staff is even on the same planet as our pervious scouting staff who constantly got guys into the NHL from the lower rounds.

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08-07-2013, 12:12 PM
  #296
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Agreed on a lot of that stuff, Ola. I think most people here, though, would point out that drafting top-6 forwards is great, and all, but when was the last time the Rangers drafted a first line offensive player? Stepan might be one, and I'm confident in it, but not yet sold. We have to go all the way back to 1995 to find a Rangers pick who became a 1st liner, who not coincidentally developed into one somewhere else, and all the way back to 1991 to find a first round pick who became a 1st liner, who was a legitimate 1st liner with the Rangers. We haven't developed great offensively capable players very much in our history, really since the early-90s. Niklas Sundstrom was something of a 1st line player with the Rangers, but he was a defensively oriented one, like a lesser Jere Lehtinen.

As to Sauer, I don't think any of us really considered him a "bust" in the sense that he wasn't developing his potential. We knew what kind of player he could be if he could just stay healthy.

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08-07-2013, 12:13 PM
  #297
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well outside of franchises that keep picking in the top 10 where are these teams that are finding all this elite talent? Pretty hard to stock up on this talent when the highest you've drafted in 10 years is 10th overall....
This is another problem. The grass is always greener somewhere else.

Some might look at our draft record from say 2000-2007 and say that hey, they got some depth but not any elite talent!

Yes, we did not get an elite scorer in that time. But we got a top 3-5 MVP in the league in Hank, we got a very solid Nr 1 D in Staal (if he only can be healthy). Zidlicky has played alot of hockey as a Nr 1 D in this league, he has scored alot of pts from the blueline. He has been the nr 1 D on a team that went to the SCF's. Toots was a top pairing D for CBJ. Callahan is our captain and has played a ton of 1st line hockey for us. We didn't get franchise scorer, well how often are they drafted? And especially outside the top 10 picks? Why is a 1st line forward worth more than a nr 1 D?

Quote:
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Agreed on a lot of that stuff, Ola. I think most people here, though, would point out that drafting top-6 forwards is great, and all, but when was the last time the Rangers drafted a first line offensive talent? Stepan might be one, and I'm confident in it, but not yet sold. We have to go all the way back to 1995 to find a Rangers pick who became a 1st liner, who not coincidentally developed into one somewhere else, and all the way back to 1991 to find a first round pick who became a 1st liner, who was a legitimate 1st liner with the Rangers. We haven't developed great offensively capable players very much in our history, really since the early-90s. Niklas Sundstrom was something of a 1st line player with the Rangers, but he was a defensively oriented one, like a lesser Jere Lehtinen.

As to Sauer, I don't think any of us really considered him a "bust" in the sense that he wasn't developing his potential. We knew what kind of player he could be if he could just stay healthy.
I didn't even need to see your question before posting my response! Hah! (but its of course a good point you make)

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08-07-2013, 12:20 PM
  #298
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so lets say we still had our first round pick this year at #19, who do you think we would have selected with the players available?

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08-07-2013, 12:34 PM
  #299
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I didn't even need to see your question before posting my response! Hah! (but its of course a good point you make)
You know, I think the reality here isn't only about drafting. It's about the fact that from basically 1995-2005, our team's player development has just been terrible.

These are the forwards we drafted from 1995-2002 who put up great numbers in junior/college/etc, and not as overagers

Christian Dube
Marc Savard
Daniel Goneau
Colin Pepperall
Stefan Cherneski
Johan Lindbom
Mike York
Manny Malhotra
Randy Copley
Boyd Kane
Pat Leahy
Pavel Brendl
Jamie Lundmark
Shawn Collymore

Chreneski was unfortunate. But, among all of that talent, the Rangers couldn't develop a single great offensive player? As it was, they only developed 3 NHL players out of that group at all, one who found his offensive spark elsewhere. Now, I'm aware that drafting and development are a crapshoot, but my point is that as much blame needs to fall on development as it does on drafting.

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08-07-2013, 12:37 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
everything bolded is ****ing garbage. are you even a Rangers fan? Callahan doesn't make a difference? McIlrath will be a 6th defenseman? Miller is destined to be a bottom 6er? Do you even WATCH the rangers?
I don't know why you reacted with any ferocity... small minds do that... not to suggest you fit the bill at all, how should I know?

Yup, Rangers fan. Yup, I watch them!

Callahan, while gutsy and enthusiastic, is an above-average player. He's not an elite player. It's a question of how you term difference-maker. A 50-55 pt., do-it-all player, captain or not isn't a BIG difference-maker... but sort of, I guess.

Never said McIlrath or Miller will become ANYTHING, but thus far, they're NOT following he course of development appropriate for more than 3rd rate guys.

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