HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Offseason Thread V: Needs to End Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-07-2013, 01:38 PM
  #301
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,111
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You know, I think the reality here isn't only about drafting. It's about the fact that from basically 1995-2005, our team's player development has just been terrible.

These are the forwards we drafted from 1995-2002 who put up great numbers in junior/college/etc, and not as overagers

Christian Dube
Marc Savard
Daniel Goneau
Colin Pepperall
Stefan Cherneski
Johan Lindbom
Mike York
Manny Malhotra
Randy Copley
Boyd Kane
Pat Leahy
Pavel Brendl
Jamie Lundmark
Shawn Collymore

Chreneski was unfortunate. But, among all of that talent, the Rangers couldn't develop a single great offensive player? As it was, they only developed 3 NHL players out of that group at all, one who found his offensive spark elsewhere. Now, I'm aware that drafting and development are a crapshoot, but my point is that as much blame needs to fall on development as it does on drafting.
To his credit, Neil Smith tried to change direction, but he did it in advance of the 1999 draft which was one of the worst in history. Oops.

The following year, Sather comes in, guns-a-blazing and ready to spend Dolan's money and we were right back at square 1 again.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #302
Thirty One
portnor, pls
 
Thirty One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,683
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
To his credit, Neil Smith tried to change direction, but he did it in advance of the 1999 draft which was one of the worst in history. Oops.

The following year, Sather comes in, guns-a-blazing and ready to spend Dolan's money and we were right back at square 1 again.
Of course, Neil Smith proved that building through the draft doesn't work. Duh.

__________________


Rangers Unlimited
Hockey Graphs
Thirty One is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:05 PM
  #303
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Championship View Post
Who are "franchise forwards" drafted later that are playing right now?
Datsyuk, Zetterberg
Giroux
Benn
Bergeron, Krejci
Alfredsson
St. Louis
Parise


Great group of players, not very long though
'Cause you also skipped Perry, Vanek, Iginla, Kane, Toews, E. Staal, Hall, Kopitar, Koivu, Tavares, Spezza, Malkin, Crosby, Thornton, both Sedins, Ovechkin and Backstrom

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:06 PM
  #304
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
and Stamkos and Kesler.

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:10 PM
  #305
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,111
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Of course, Neil Smith proved that building through the draft doesn't work. Duh.
Tried it for one off-season. Garbage.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:15 PM
  #306
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I agree. Over the past 15 years, the Rangers 1st rounder, overall, have been lacking. Although like you said, it is a bit harsh to say the drafting hasn't been at the very least average over the past 9 years or so.

2013 - No 1st rounder
2012 - Skjei
2011 - Miller
2010 - McIlrath
2009 - Kreider
2008 - Del Zotto
2007 - Cheraponov
2006 - Sanguinetti
2005 - Staal

Obviously Skjei, McIlrath, Kreider and Miller are too young to judge but they all look like they will, at the very least, be NHLers. Cheraponov (RIP) and Sanguinetti would then be the only 1st rounder not to make the NHL. Not bad.
That's 3 big ifs... Sanguinetti made the NHL and is still a bust. You could say, hey, we've been average at drafting... no such thing, it's either good or not good enough.

We had a very good prospect pool 4 years ago. Things change rather quickly, and they have. We haven't drafted well enough.

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:18 PM
  #307
iamitter
Thornton's Hen
 
iamitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 3,392
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
'Cause you also skipped Perry, Vanek, Iginla, Kane, Toews, E. Staal, Hall, Kopitar, Koivu, Tavares, Spezza, Malkin, Crosby, Thornton, both Sedins, Ovechkin and Backstrom
Perry was 28th, Kopitar 11th. Everyone else on your list was a top ten pick. And Kopitar almost was.

iamitter is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:21 PM
  #308
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
That's 3 big ifs... Sanguinetti made the NHL and is still a bust. You could say, hey, we've been average at drafting... no such thing, it's either good or not good enough.

We had a very good prospect pool 4 years ago. Things change rather quickly, and they have. We haven't drafted well enough.
Considering most 1st rounders don't even make the NHL, the fact that he did means he is an above average pick.

Miller was already in the NHL. Kreider as well. McIlrath looks to be well on his way.

Skjei is too young to determine.

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:22 PM
  #309
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
OOOOOOhh you meant top 10, I'm sorry... didn't notice.

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:24 PM
  #310
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,111
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Considering most 1st rounders don't even make the NHL, the fact that he did means he is an above average pick.

Miller was already in the NHL. Kreider as well. McIlrath looks to be well on his way.

Skjei is too young to determine.
90% of first rounders since 1982 have played at least 1 NHL game.

75% at least 50 games

60% at least 200 games

Just getting 1st rounders into the NHL with little to no impact is not something thats commendable.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:25 PM
  #311
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
90% of first rounders since 1982 have played at least 1 NHL game.

75% at least 50

60% at least 200
fo' realz?

I didn't realize the numbers were that high. Where did you get those from?

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:31 PM
  #312
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
90% of first rounders since 1982 have played at least 1 NHL game.

75% at least 50 games

60% at least 200 games

Just getting 1st rounders into the NHL with little to no impact is not something thats commendable.
I mean it's not like the Rangers 1st rounders haven't made an impact.

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:31 PM
  #313
Raspewtin
Early To The Party
 
Raspewtin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Howard Beach, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,339
vCash: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Plenty of other teams have drafted franchise-type players outside the top 10. What you're trying to convey here is a bunch of ********, and an easy way out.

The Rangers have drafted 2 of these types of players in the last 30 years. Amonte and Kovalev. And they played their best hockey outside of this organization.

The inability to draft and develop blue chip forwards has haunted this franchise for decades. You'd think a crappy excuse like "Well, its tough to do when you're drafting outside the top 10," wouldnt fly by now.
holy **** calm down will you. I didn't say anywhere that there's never been franchise players drafted outside of the top 10. What I DID say was since 2007, where are all these elite players that have been stockpiled outside of the top 10 (So NYI, EDM, FLA don't count). And can you name them!? MAYBE Detroit. Us not being able to draft blue chip forwards does suck and should be addressed but we still have drafted pretty well with what we've been given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
They find them. Look at Boston's draft's in the mid 2000s.

2007

Ryan McDonagh (MON 1/12)
Kevin Shattenkirk (COL 1/14)
Max Pacioretty (MON 1/22)
P.K. Subban (MON 2/43)
Jamie Benn (DAL 5/129)

2008

Erik Karlsson (OTT 1/15)
John Carson (WAS 1/27)
Derek Stepan (NYR 2/51)
Travis Hamonic (NYI 2/53)
for ****s sake I was making a point that SINCE 2007 (cause that was the year in discussion), there's no team with a true stockpile of highend talent that didn't get injections from the top 10. Except the Habs, I'll say that for now. But other than them who else has like 3-4 bluechip prospects that they took from later rounds? go on I'll wait.

Raspewtin is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:40 PM
  #314
Raspewtin
Early To The Party
 
Raspewtin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Howard Beach, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,339
vCash: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
I don't know why you reacted with any ferocity... small minds do that... not to suggest you fit the bill at all, how should I know?

Yup, Rangers fan. Yup, I watch them!

Callahan, while gutsy and enthusiastic, is an above-average player. He's not an elite player. It's a question of how you term difference-maker. A 50-55 pt., do-it-all player, captain or not isn't a BIG difference-maker... but sort of, I guess.

Never said McIlrath or Miller will become ANYTHING, but thus far, they're NOT following he course of development appropriate for more than 3rd rate guys.
Which is a completely wrong statement. Callahan might be "above average" but he's still an impact player in that he does everything well.

Raspewtin is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:44 PM
  #315
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
Wow. Me neither.

But that's my point... remember Heerema, Taffe, Wiseman, Lundmark. 1st rounders (right?). Successes? Then it's semantics.

You're right, our drafting hasn't been atrocious, but it seems like we always reach for a guy, then everyone goes, "****, good find, he's gonna be a stud," but then he winds up good but not that good. Stepan is different. Hagelin might be.

Maybe I'm way off-base with McIlrath. I see a big, tough guy who's pretty slow, with 0 puck skill, who is ok at D but made the same mistakes late in the season that he made earlier. Saw 4 or 5 Whale games. I'm a Rangers fan, not a Whale fan and I have a life! lol

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:46 PM
  #316
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
Wow. Me neither.

But that's my point... remember Heerema, Taffe, Wiseman, Lundmark. 1st rounders (right?). Successes? Then it's semantics.

You're right, our drafting hasn't been atrocious, but it seems like we always reach for a guy, then everyone goes, "****, good find, he's gonna be a stud," but then he winds up good but not that good. Stepan is different. Hagelin might be.

Maybe I'm way off-base with McIlrath. I see a big, tough guy who's pretty slow, with 0 puck skill, who is ok at D but made the same mistakes late in the season that he made earlier. Saw 4 or 5 Whale games. I'm a Rangers fan, not a Whale fan and I have a life! lol
He is big, not slow, he has some puck skills. He has a good outlet pass but keeps it simple, kind of ala Sauer. I would say the Rangers are probably looking at a meaner, bigger version of Mike Sauer.

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:57 PM
  #317
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
He is big, not slow, he has some puck skills. He has a good outlet pass but keeps it simple, kind of ala Sauer. I would say the Rangers are probably looking at a meaner, bigger version of Mike Sauer.
I'll take your word for it then. And it's not that I don't want him or Miller to be good, I hope they are. I'm going based on the little bit I see (admittedly not enough to lay down the law here), read, stats (sorry but I do), and seeing how things have gone in the past, which isn't the best logic.

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 02:57 PM
  #318
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,111
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
holy **** calm down will you. I didn't say anywhere that there's never been franchise players drafted outside of the top 10. What I DID say was since 2007, where are all these elite players that have been stockpiled outside of the top 10 (So NYI, EDM, FLA don't count). And can you name them!? MAYBE Detroit. Us not being able to draft blue chip forwards does suck and should be addressed but we still have drafted pretty well with what we've been given.
My apologies. I guess I originally couldnt fathom that your real point is even sillier than the historical look at great players being drafted outside the top 10. You do realize that "since 2007" is an awfully short window to evaluate something like that, don't you?

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:00 PM
  #319
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
I'll take your word for it then. And it's not that I don't want him or Miller to be good, I hope they are. I'm going based on the little bit I see (admittedly not enough to lay down the law here), read, stats (sorry but I do), and seeing how things have gone in the past, which isn't the best logic.
It's fair, I get being a pessimist. Just saying what I have seen.

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:07 PM
  #320
JeffMangum
~anger~
 
JeffMangum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Listening to music
Country: United States
Posts: 58,015
vCash: 50
Miller had .5 ppg in the AHL as a 19 year old. How is he being developed as a third liner? You kind of need to explain why you think Miller is developing like a third liner, and why you think his AHL numbers at 19 (23 points in 42 games) are a sign he's developing as a third liner, because implying something like that is off base and overly negative from my point of view.

JeffMangum is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:12 PM
  #321
BobMarleyNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Alphabet
Country: Iraq
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BobMarleyNYR
hONESPTLY, i WAS GETTING THAT FROM WHAT iREAD HERE. sorry for the caps... didn't know he was .5PPG.

BobMarleyNYR is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:13 PM
  #322
RangerBoy
#freejtmiller
 
RangerBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 31,896
vCash: 500
If Gorton was with the Rangers in 2007,would they have taken Cherepanov or another player? Max Pacioretty had the pedigree the Rangers like. US born kid. Northeast. College bound player to Michigan. 6-2 200.

MOC talked about the Bruins winning the Cup with players his regime selected

Quote:
Prior to his dismissal as general manager in 2006, Mike O’Connell — a native of Cohasset, Mass. — put a number of pieces in place that would go on to carry the Bruins to their Stanley Cup victory, including draftees Patrice Bergeron and David Krejci.

“When you’re a general manager, you leave that to your scouts,” said O’Connell, now the director of pro development for the Los Angeles Kings. “You have a little bit of say. So if you’re going to give me credit for those guys, you’ve got to give me credit for Milan Lucic, Brad Marchand, Phil Kessel and all those other guys, because I was part of the same staff that selected Bergeron and Krejci.

“The three guys who picked those players were Daniel Dore, Nick Bobrov and Jeff Gorton. The scout they retained, Scott Bradley, was sick that year and did very little scouting. Those three guys basically made those selections and many prior to that, and were very important to the Bruins’ organization. Those guys should not be forgotten because they are what helped bring the Stanley Cup to Boston.”
http://hockeyjournal.com/news/pros/F...n_Bruins_glory

MOC also signed Tim Thomas. Gorton traded Raycroft for Rask.

Craig Patrick and his staff selected Brian Leetch and Mike Richter. Those two guys were main cogs for the Rangers. Neil Smith reaped the benefits. It happens.

RangerBoy is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:22 PM
  #323
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
fo' realz?

I didn't realize the numbers were that high. Where did you get those from?
Not sure where he's cutting off, in terms of draft years (i.e. it wouldn't make sense to include the 2012 draftees in there). Those numbers are about right, although they decrease if you even out the consistency to the top 30 picks.

The numbers also drop after about 1990, but that's a different discussion.

Tawnos is online now  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:22 PM
  #324
RangerBoy
#freejtmiller
 
RangerBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 31,896
vCash: 500
Dominic Moore is skating with Logan Couture at a hockey school or an organized youth hockey event

Quote:
@mooredom and I heading out for the afternoon session at #AllCanadians! Lets gooooo
https://twitter.com/Logancouture/sta...88861627871232

They were also teammates with the Sharks

RangerBoy is offline  
Old
08-07-2013, 03:30 PM
  #325
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
To his credit, Neil Smith tried to change direction, but he did it in advance of the 1999 draft which was one of the worst in history. Oops.
Neil Smith changed direction in terms of roster construction, but I don't really believe that he changed anything in regards to player development.

Tawnos is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.