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08-07-2013, 10:20 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
If I'm ranking defensemen, or really any player, it's based on their ability to help their team win. Those players are more effective than McDonagh at that.
I think the issue more lay with drew claiming we have nobody to clear the crease and then claiming we have no top ten D. The top ten D included some extremely soft players.

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08-07-2013, 10:21 PM
  #377
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Subban and Karlsson? Are you just pissy that we don't have any pure offensive defensemen? Cause minus the offense McD is miles better than Karlsson, Letang, Subban, and Markov. Seabrook just isn't better than McD at all. Kronwall is debatable.

Unfortunately, offensive skills are part of the package in rating defensemen. There isn't a GM in hockey that would take McDonagh right now over Karlsson, Subban, Letang, or even Seabrook. If you think that, then your just kidding yourself.
I love McDonagh but the guy has played 140 games in his career and he's ions behind the others offensively.

Kronwall? You have got to be be kidding about him; he hits like a mack truck, plays sound positional defense and is terrific offensively!

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08-07-2013, 10:23 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Unfortunately, offensive skills are part of the package in rating defensemen. There isn't a GM in hockey that would take McDonagh right now over Karlsson, Subban, Letang, or even Seabrook. If you think that, then your just kidding yourself.
I love McDonagh but the guy has played 140 games in his career and he's ions behind the others offensively.

Kronwall? You have got to be be kidding about him; he hits like a mack truck, plays sound positional defense and is terrific offensively!
Well, that would depend on what kind of ions we're talking about. I mean, hydrogen ions? Sure. Those guys definitely have more protons than McDonagh. Ammonium ions? I'd rank them equal.

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08-07-2013, 10:23 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Look, I like McDonagh a lot... but Letang, Karlsson and Subban are definitely ahead of him when talking about the best defensemen in the league.
I said "not including offense". In a critical "we need to keep them off the board moment" like the end of game 3 against the Caps, who would you put out? Karlsson or McDonagh? Sure defensemen like him score a lot but come playoff time when the superstars are flying up the ice I'd like McDonagh out there to stop them in contrast to Letang turning over the puck 800 times leading to goals (that's not to say I wouldn't like Letang on this team).

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08-07-2013, 10:24 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
That list doesn't include Shea Weber or OEL. Fail.
Opps; thanks for that info. I knew I left some defensemen off and while we're on the subject, add Yandle to the list as well!

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08-07-2013, 10:25 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Well, that would depend on what kind of ions we're talking about. I mean, hydrogen ions? Sure. Those guys definitely have more protons than McDonagh. Ammonium ions? I'd rank them equal.
Lol! Ya got me there pal.

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08-07-2013, 10:25 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
I said "not including offense". In a critical "we need to keep them off the board moment" like the end of game 3 against the Caps, who would you put out? Karlsson or McDonagh? Sure defensemen like him score a lot but come playoff time when the superstars are flying up the ice I'd like McDonagh out there to stop them in contrast to Letang turning over the puck 800 times leading to goals (that's not to say I wouldn't like Letang on this team).
So, we should just ignore the equally critical "we need to get on the board" moments late in games? It's all about wins. You can't take out parts of certain player's games when rating guys playing the same position. Who cares if McDonagh is a better defensive player than Karlsson? Karlsson has a larger overall positive effect on his team.

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08-07-2013, 10:26 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Unfortunately, offensive skills are part of the package in rating defensemen. There isn't a GM in hockey that would take McDonagh right now over Karlsson, Subban, Letang, or even Seabrook. If you think that, then your just kidding yourself.
I love McDonagh but the guy has played 140 games in his career and he's ions behind the others offensively.

Kronwall? You have got to be be kidding about him; he hits like a mack truck, plays sound positional defense and is terrific offensively!
The NYR don't have Chara or Weber... I get it. You're going on an on about physicality, then you praise Letang and Karlsson. This team has a ton of depth, and probably has a top 5 NHL defense. Defense is not the problem with this club. Let's look at the players you just mentioned: Karlsson is unreal, but do you think Ott has the better defense overall? No. Montreal, Detroit, Pitt? No. Chicago you could def make a case for.

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08-07-2013, 10:26 PM
  #384
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I think the issue more lay with drew claiming we have nobody to clear the crease and then claiming we have no top ten D. The top ten D included some extremely soft players.
That's a true statement and I personally feel that guys like Letang are way overrated and only make the list because of their offensive prowess which is amplified by playing with Crosby, Malkin, et al.

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08-07-2013, 10:27 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Unfortunately, offensive skills are part of the package in rating defensemen. There isn't a GM in hockey that would take McDonagh right now over Karlsson, Subban, Letang, or even Seabrook. If you think that, then your just kidding yourself.
I love McDonagh but the guy has played 140 games in his career and he's ions behind the others offensively.

Kronwall? You have got to be be kidding about him; he hits like a mack truck, plays sound positional defense and is terrific offensively!
Subban and Letang suck defensively. They're nice to have on the PP and to put up points but they aren't everything. I'm not trying to argue that McDonagh is the best defenseman ever but stop underrating our corps cause they don't have a Letang or a Subban. There's a reason the team with Subban and Markov crashed and burned in the playoffs in 5 games, and the team with :gasp: McDonagh and Girardi advanced.

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08-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Unfortunately, offensive skills are part of the package in rating defensemen. There isn't a GM in hockey that would take McDonagh right now over Karlsson, Subban, Letang, or even Seabrook. If you think that, then your just kidding yourself.
I love McDonagh but the guy has played 140 games in his career and he's ions behind the others offensively.

Kronwall? You have got to be be kidding about him; he hits like a mack truck, plays sound positional defense and is terrific offensively!
No way I take Seabrook over McDonagh.

I think you're underrating him here. He's been a top ten ES scorer for two years in a row now for D. Give him 6-7 (even BS if he's bad at it) points from consistent PP time and suddenly he's a 40 point guy.

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08-07-2013, 10:29 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Barnaby View Post
The NYR don't have Chara or Weber... I get it. You're going on an on about physicality, then you praise Letang and Karlsson. This team has a ton of depth, and probably has a top 5 NHL defense. Defense is not the problem with this club. Let's look at the players you just mentioned: Karlsson is unreal, but do you think Ott has the better defense overall? No. Montreal, Pitt? No. Chicago you could make a case for.
Chicago, LA, St Louis, Boston. These are the only team's who have groups of D, top to bottom, that are in the conversation with the Rangers group. Everyone else is a tier or more down.

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08-07-2013, 10:30 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
I said "not including offense". In a critical "we need to keep them off the board moment" like the end of game 3 against the Caps, who would you put out? Karlsson or McDonagh? Sure defensemen like him score a lot but come playoff time when the superstars are flying up the ice I'd like McDonagh out there to stop them in contrast to Letang turning over the puck 800 times leading to goals (that's not to say I wouldn't like Letang on this team).
That's a very good point but please don't place Letang(who is a turnover machine) in the same class with Karlsson(who is vastly underrated defensively and is the best skater in the league)!

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08-07-2013, 10:30 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
That's a true statement and I personally feel that guys like Letang are way overrated and only make the list because of their offensive prowess which is amplified by playing with Crosby, Malkin, et al.
Letang, yeah. Karlsson, not a chance. That guy changes the dynamic of the game when he's on the ice.

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08-07-2013, 10:30 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Opps; thanks for that info. I knew I left some defensemen off and while we're on the subject, add Yandle to the list as well!
Yandle is not close to the players you mentioned. He's simply not good defensively. In all honesty, MDZ is a better defensive player than Yandle.

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08-07-2013, 10:31 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
So, we should just ignore the equally critical "we need to get on the board" moments late in games? It's all about wins. You can't take out parts of certain player's games when rating guys playing the same position. Who cares if McDonagh is a better defensive player than Karlsson? Karlsson has a larger overall positive effect on his team.
for gods sake I was just arguing that McDonagh and co. don't need to be offensively flashy and dangle to be good defensemen or good as a unit. Offense from the blueline is important but it certainly isn't everything. And you're kidding right? Ask the Penguins when Letang's horrible defensive play was a great contributor to them being swept by Boston.

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08-07-2013, 10:32 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
Subban and Letang suck defensively. They're nice to have on the PP and to put up points but they aren't everything. I'm not trying to argue that McDonagh is the best defenseman ever but stop underrating our corps cause they don't have a Letang or a Subban. There's a reason the team with Subban and Markov crashed and burned in the playoffs in 5 games, and the team with :gasp: McDonagh and Girardi advanced.
What in the world are you talking about? Subban is an excellent defensive player. Even if Subban was a black hole offensively, he'd still have a big role in the NHL. There's a reason he won the Norris and it ain't just offense.

If you watched MTL last season, you'd still know Subban can't run a PP on his own yet. He's still a triggerman and Markov runs the show in terms of being the QB. A big part of his increase in points was because Markov had a healthy season. His overall play actually wasn't too different from last year.

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08-07-2013, 10:33 PM
  #393
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I don't even know what the argument Is anymore...

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08-07-2013, 10:33 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Barnaby View Post
The NYR don't have Chara or Weber... I get it. You're going on an on about physicality, then you praise Letang and Karlsson. This team has a ton of depth, and probably has a top 5 NHL defense. Defense is not the problem with this club. Let's look at the players you just mentioned: Karlsson is unreal, but do you think Ott has the better defense overall? No. Montreal, Detroit, Pitt? No. Chicago you could def make a case for.
Another well thought post with excellent points! I would place Chicago, LA, Boston ahead of us defensively off the top of my head. It's off season now and I really can't think about what other teams may be better. I like our defense a lot but once again, it is not elite.

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08-07-2013, 10:35 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
for gods sake I was just arguing that McDonagh and co. don't need to be offensively flashy and dangle to be good defensemen or good as a unit. Offense from the blueline is important but it certainly isn't everything. And you're kidding right? Ask the Penguins when Letang's horrible defensive play was a great contributor to them being swept by Boston.
Disagree about Letang. This is a guy who, just two years ago, was a legitimate Norris candidate. There are other things going on in Pittsburgh. Namely, none of their forwards seem interested in playing defense anymore, like they did just a few years ago. Their defensive structure is a mess and Fleury's turned into a basketcase. Shea Weber would look like a bonehead on that team. You think Letang stands a chance?

I understand what you were arguing. I was pointing out that your argument is limited and meaningless. Sorry.

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08-07-2013, 10:37 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Another well thought post with excellent points! I would place Chicago, LA, Boston ahead of us defensively off the top of my head. It's off season now and I really can't think about what other teams may be better. I like our defense a lot but once again, it is not elite.
I believe we do have a top 5 D

in no order

Chi
LA
Bos
NYR
VAN

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08-07-2013, 10:37 PM
  #397
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what are we even arguing anymore...........the seasons gotta start. asap. lul.

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08-07-2013, 10:38 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Another well thought post with excellent points! I would place Chicago, LA, Boston ahead of us defensively off the top of my head. It's off season now and I really can't think about what other teams may be better. I like our defense a lot but once again, it is not elite.
Well, for the sake of fun, I'm not sure any of those teams are automatically ahead of us. All 4 teams, plus the Blues, belong in the same conversation. In fact, I think the Blues might be the best of the bunch. LA will be interesting to watch with the loss of Scuderi, who was their main PK guy. Boston will also be interesting to watch. Who knows if their young guys are really ready to step in.

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08-07-2013, 10:38 PM
  #399
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No way I take Seabrook over McDonagh.

I think you're underrating him here. He's been a top ten ES scorer for two years in a row now for D. Give him 6-7 (even BS if he's bad at it) points from consistent PP time and suddenly he's a 40 point guy.
I'm only looking at the right here and now. Seabrook has been a #1 pairing guy for 6+ years now, has been an integral part of 2 cup winners and so I would take him right now. However, going forward I would agree with you about McDonagh who I believe has tremendous upside which includes untapped offensive ability.

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08-07-2013, 10:39 PM
  #400
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Another well thought post with excellent points! I would place Chicago, LA, Boston ahead of us defensively off the top of my head. It's off season now and I really can't think about what other teams may be better. I like our defense a lot but once again, it is not elite.
You just named 3 (arguable) defenses better than ours.. That makes the Rangers a top 4 defense in the entire NHL, how is it not elite overall by your own admission there are only 3 better?

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