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Old
08-08-2013, 05:02 PM
  #526
Raspewtin
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this conversation about Stepan not actually being good is getting ridiculous. Other than holding up his production this season IDK what else he has to prove (and don't say playoff scoring, the whole team forgets how to score in the playoffs and he shouldn't be singled out). He's not Datsyuk level but there's no reason to believe he can't come close to him. Every year, he's gotten better in EVERY aspect of his game, skating, strength, faceoffs (not saying much though lol), passing, everything! He constantly strives to be better, excels in all three zones, and he's got a partner in Nash who he's freaking dynamite with. And in AV's new creative system who knows, maybe he'll be even better? I'm fine with signing him long term or a bridge, loved the guy since his first game, and I find it extremely hard to believe he wont get any better.

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08-08-2013, 05:24 PM
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
"Best two way player in the league" is just a circuitous way of saying "overrated flavor of the month."

See: Datsyuk, Pavel; Bergeron, Patrice
Ummm... what...?

I'd go to war with those players as my top 2 centers ANY day of the week. Would there be a better 1-2 tandem in the league outside of Crosby/Malkin...?

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Old
08-08-2013, 05:30 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Barnaby View Post
Ummm... what...?

I'd go to war with those players as my top 2 centers ANY day of the week. Would there be a better 1-2 tandem in the league outside of Crosby/Malkin...?
It's just a justification people use in order to deny that the best player in the game is Crosby, usually. If you want to refuse to admit that simple fact, then you just need to qualify it with "two way player," and all of a sudden people are like "Ah, yes, of course."

It's why whenever there's the daily "Who's the best player in the world?" thread, there's always people saying Datsyuk and (lately) Bergeron even though it's obviously not the case. Because "two way player!"

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08-08-2013, 05:58 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
It's just a justification people use in order to deny that the best player in the game is Crosby, usually. If you want to refuse to admit that simple fact, then you just need to qualify it with "two way player," and all of a sudden people are like "Ah, yes, of course."

It's why whenever there's the daily "Who's the best player in the world?" thread, there's always people saying Datsyuk and (lately) Bergeron even though it's obviously not the case. Because "two way player!"
Actually, labeling it "best two-way player" is doing nothing more than classifying the argument. It certainly doesnt make Bergeron and Datsyuk over-rated, and it has even less to do with Crosby - who not many people would think "Oh, hes a sterling defensive player."

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08-08-2013, 06:02 PM
  #530
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I...Need..Hockey....

Yankees are a joke this year, I can't wait for NFL to start!

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Old
08-08-2013, 06:15 PM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
It's just a justification people use in order to deny that the best player in the game is Crosby, usually. If you want to refuse to admit that simple fact, then you just need to qualify it with "two way player," and all of a sudden people are like "Ah, yes, of course."

It's why whenever there's the daily "Who's the best player in the world?" thread, there's always people saying Datsyuk and (lately) Bergeron even though it's obviously not the case. Because "two way player!"
I don't get what Crosby being arguably the best player in the league has to do with saying that Datsyuk and Bergeron are elite 2-way centers. Anyone with common sense knows that Crosby is better than both. However, Datsyuk and Bergeron are both terrific centers in their own right, and I don't see what this has to do with Crosby... I don't think any somewhat knowledgeable, and honest hockey fan would disagree with my point here....

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Old
08-08-2013, 06:48 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
With all due respect, Stepan will never ever be close to Bergeron who, before all the concussion issues, was on the fast track to hockey superstardom. Look up Bergeron's #'s his first few years and bear in mind that he made the NHL right out of gate.
He is hands down the best 2 way player in the league right now and he is the best face-off guy bar none!
how do you know he wont be similar to him?

obv its tough... but hes only 23.. top players in the game usually are closer to 26,27,28

guy has an already excellent resume, is a leader, has a two-way game and has improved each year with production... he has already exceeded expectations here in only 3 yrs..

so why dont we pump the breaks be happy with who he is and what he brings to the table and see how this plays out before we pass judgements..

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08-08-2013, 07:15 PM
  #533
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“Henrik wants to be here and we want Henrik…at the end of the day… it shouldn’t be too difficult to get a deal….I think we will get one done.”
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When asked about a time-table for the contract talks and what pace they are at, Gorton said “I’d prefer to have it done right now and it’s what we are working towards. To be honest, we have had other things going on. Henrik has been in Sweden and we are doing our best to set things up and get going again.
http://snyrangersblog.com/

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Old
08-08-2013, 08:13 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
how do you know he wont be similar to him?

obv its tough... but hes only 23.. top players in the game usually are closer to 26,27,28

guy has an already excellent resume, is a leader, has a two-way game and has improved each year with production... he has already exceeded expectations here in only 3 yrs..

so why dont we pump the breaks be happy with who he is and what he brings to the table and see how this plays out before we pass judgements..
Agree with you and I am happy with who he is and what he has brought to the table thus far.

It's no slight to Stepan in saying that he won't be close to Bergeron who made the Bruins out of the gate at age 18 and had over 70 points his 2nd and 3rd seasons before the concussion bugaboo hit him hard. He was on the fast track to superstardom only to have his career derrailed for a few seasons.

Stepan can be like him as a player but never nearly as good as him.

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Old
08-08-2013, 08:17 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
this conversation about Stepan not actually being good is getting ridiculous. Other than holding up his production this season IDK what else he has to prove (and don't say playoff scoring, the whole team forgets how to score in the playoffs and he shouldn't be singled out). He's not Datsyuk level but there's no reason to believe he can't come close to him. Every year, he's gotten better in EVERY aspect of his game, skating, strength, faceoffs (not saying much though lol), passing, everything! He constantly strives to be better, excels in all three zones, and he's got a partner in Nash who he's freaking dynamite with. And in AV's new creative system who knows, maybe he'll be even better? I'm fine with signing him long term or a bridge, loved the guy since his first game, and I find it extremely hard to believe he wont get any better.
Stepan will definitely get better but to say he can come close to Datsyuk is just a pipedream! They aren't on the same planet talent wise and they never will be.

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Old
08-08-2013, 08:32 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Stepan will definitely get better but to say he can come close to Datsyuk is just a pipedream! They aren't on the same planet talent wise and they never will be.
oh I didn't know you can predict the future. Why is it SO out of the realm of possibility? I mean I doubt he ever does get to Datsyuk level but it's fair to say his improvement will take him far.

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08-08-2013, 08:42 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by billyhauntswizards View Post
oh I didn't know you can predict the future. Why is it SO out of the realm of possibility? I mean I doubt he ever does get to Datsyuk level but it's fair to say his improvement will take him far.
Look, a terrific hockey IQ can only take you so far. Stepan will be a great Ranger and probably our next captain but trust me, it is completely out of the realm of possibility for him to even sniff Pavel Datsyuk!

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Old
08-08-2013, 08:55 PM
  #538
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Gotta bump this when Step inevitably had a repeat of last years start.

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Old
08-08-2013, 09:01 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Look, a terrific hockey IQ can only take you so far. Stepan will be a great Ranger and probably our next captain but trust me, it is completely out of the realm of possibility for him to even sniff Pavel Datsyuk!
Depends how close he is.

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08-08-2013, 09:05 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Jabroni View Post
Depends how close he is.
Easily should've won funniest poster.

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08-08-2013, 09:13 PM
  #541
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in Datsyuk's first 3 seasons, he had 154 points in 209 games (.737 PPG)

in Stepan's first 3 seasons, he had 140 points in 212 games (.660 PPG)

Datsyuk had 14 more points in 3 less games. Datsyuk started his career when he was 2 years older than Stepan was when he started his. at that age and that point of a players development, 2 years is a lot. to put it in perspective, 2 years is the difference between Stepan scoring 45 points in 82 games and Stepan scoring 44 points in 48 games.

do i think that Stepan is the next Datsyuk? no, no i dont. on the other hand who is anyone to say that he cannot become a Datsyuk like player. unless you have a crystal ball that can see into the future, i dont think anyone can say for sure what Stepan will become. my hopes for Stepan is that he grows and becomes a PPG, defensively responsible 1st line center. i do not think those are outlandish hopes for a 23 year old who just finished 11th in scoring among NHL centers.

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Old
08-08-2013, 09:57 PM
  #542
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Bergeron is a 55-65 point center who's one of the best defensively. Maybe Stepan will never be that good at face-offs, but I don't see why he can't become our Bergeron. Surely he can work on his face-offs. Stepan has been hovering around 50 pts until he was PPG this year.

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Old
08-08-2013, 10:17 PM
  #543
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Sign Stepan on a bridge deal for 3,2 M - slightly under Matt Duchêne money which is Right in the ballpark
Trade MDZ, JT Miller and a 1st for PK Subban and a 2nd
Trade Derrick Powe for Corey Pottter (=>AHL)
Stash Asham in Hartford to begin with (costs $75,000)

FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($3.200m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Micheal Haley or Brandon Mashinter ($0.600m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / P.K. Subban ($2.875m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
John Moore ($0.965m) / Anton Stralman ($1.700m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
CAP PAYROLL: $64,890,000
BONUSES: $762,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $542,500

Go to war!


Last edited by BBKers: 08-08-2013 at 10:27 PM.
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Old
08-08-2013, 10:28 PM
  #544
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LOL @ DZ, Miller and a 1st being worth Subban... plus a pick!

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Old
08-08-2013, 10:31 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Sign Stepan on a bridge deal for 3,2 M - slightly under Matt Duchêne money which is Right in the ballpark
Trade MDZ, JT Miller and a 1st for PK Subban and a 2nd
Trade Derrick Powe for Corey Pottter (=>AHL)
Stash Asham in Hartford to begin with (costs $75,000)

FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($3.200m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Micheal Haley or Brandon Mashinter ($0.600m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / P.K. Subban ($2.875m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
John Moore ($0.965m) / Anton Stralman ($1.700m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
CAP PAYROLL: $64,890,000
BONUSES: $762,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $542,500

Go to war!
You gotta just stop, man. It's not working for you.

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Old
08-08-2013, 10:45 PM
  #546
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Subban is going to get a big payday. Think Drew Doughty money. Subban is a group III in two years I think. Any long term deal will buy at least a few group III years. Regardless of what we would give up in a trade, would we really be able to afford him, Staal, Girardi, and McDonagh going forward? You really can't if you want to throw money at a forward that can put pucks in the net.

Del Zotto will be cheaper to bring back. He's a group II with arbitration rights next season. Unless he has a massive breakout season scoring 50 points while providing solid D, I wouldn't lock him up long term right away. A lot of UFA's next offseason. Buy out Richards. Use the extra money to lock our guys up. Go for a scorer like Kessel with the cap increase.

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Old
08-08-2013, 10:52 PM
  #547
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MTL trades Subban right after the Rangers trade McDonagh...

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Old
08-08-2013, 10:56 PM
  #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
LOL @ DZ, Miller and a 1st being worth Subban... plus a pick!
2 seconds = one first (basically meaning we trade a second in the proposal, substitute with that if you like)
Miller is likely 3rd line material
MDZ is as inconsistent as they can come
Subban łooks Elitę to me
Gotta give to get - especially future Norris candidates
Would solve lots on the backend. PP and so forth
Makes maybe Girardi expendable if McIllrath develops
Sub ban will get lot$
There I can agree
Richards buyout and the increase in cap next season will solve some of this, plus whatever we have in cheap youth in the pipeline will need to step up...
This trade makes the Rangers a much stronger contender this year. MCD and Subban as the first pairing and a second pairing of Staal - Girardi reunited looks damned awesome to me...


Last edited by BBKers: 08-08-2013 at 11:04 PM.
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Old
08-08-2013, 11:04 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
2 seconds = one first (basically meaning we trade a second in the proposal, substitute with that if you like)
Miller is likely 3rd line material
MDZ is as inconsistent as they can come
Subban łooks Elitę to me
Gotta give to get - especially future Norris candidates
Would solve lots on the backend. PP and so forth
Makes maybe Girardi expendable if McIllrath develops
Sub ban will get lot$
There I can agree
Richards buyout and the increase in cap next season will solve some of this, plus whatever we have in cheap youth in the pipeline will need to step up...
This trade makes the Rangers a much stronger contender this year. MCD and Subban as the first pairing looks and a second pairing of Staal - Girardi reunited awesome to me...
He obviously meant Del Zotto and Miller + is not even worth Subban alone let alone a pick.. I like both of them, but Subban is a dynamite player.

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08-08-2013, 11:14 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Sign Stepan on a bridge deal for 3,2 M - slightly under Matt Duchêne money which is Right in the ballpark
Trade MDZ, JT Miller and a 1st for PK Subban and a 2nd
Trade Derrick Powe for Corey Pottter (=>AHL)
Stash Asham in Hartford to begin with (costs $75,000)

FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($3.200m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.300m) / Derick Brassard ($3.200m) / Mats Zuccarello ($1.150m)
Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Dominic Moore ($1.000m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Micheal Haley or Brandon Mashinter ($0.600m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / P.K. Subban ($2.875m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
John Moore ($0.965m) / Anton Stralman ($1.700m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000
CAP PAYROLL: $64,890,000
BONUSES: $762,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $542,500

Go to war!
Great plan but why would the Canadiens trade Subban?

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