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08-08-2013, 02:43 PM
  #401
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One question that keeps going unanswered by all those in favor of Gagne is why aren't other teams around the league who are sorely lacking forward depth jumping on him yet? Why didn't other teams jump on Knuble last year?

The "missed ya old pal" signings the Flyers put themselves through are never really beneficial to the teams success.

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08-08-2013, 03:19 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Crescent Street View Post
One question that keeps going unanswered by all those in favor of Gagne is why aren't other teams around the league who are sorely lacking forward depth jumping on him yet? Why didn't other teams jump on Knuble last year?

The "missed ya old pal" signings the Flyers put themselves through are never really beneficial to the teams success.
There are several possibilities:

1) He's done and no one is interested

2) Teams are interested, it just isn't being reported

3) He isn't interested in signing with anyone else

Of these, I would say the least likely of the three is that no one is interested. I know that he is ancient and has injuries, but he still scored at nearly a .45 PPG lats season. I would be very shocked if teams are not interested in a guy that can put up a point roughly every other game. I don't think teams would be interested in investing huge amounts of money and time in Gagne, but a guy putting up .45 PPG doesn't strike me as a guy who is finished. That being said, if there is something out there that I haven't seen or heard related to Gagne's health, this changes everything. If he is not healthy enough to play, then he may be finished, but as far as I know he is healthy. He may be prone to injury, but from everything I have seen and read, there is nothing to suggest that he is not able to play.

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08-08-2013, 04:06 PM
  #403
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DFF,

I think he can certainly play but at the expense of youth who can do the same things we would need at (a reported/thought of) cheaper price why wouldn't we want that.

I love Gags, but I think this ship HAS to sail away.

I think of the 3 options, 3 seems most likely and while very nice to seem, I don't think it makes sense to bring him back and use him esp. with the pieces we have looking to develop and take the time Gagne MAY take from them.

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08-08-2013, 04:23 PM
  #404
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Gagne, at this point in his career, is a role player. He has the ability to be a Kapanen-type of role player and if that's the case, there's nothing wrong with having him in the lineup. Great role players are hard to come by and in most of the cases, they end up doing the dirty jobs nobody wants. The other thing with role players is that they can be had for relatively cheap. In the case of Gagne, I could see 1.5 to 1.7 a year for 30 points and top notch defensive play. That's not bad. As much as this might be a "retread", Gagne would certainly bring more to the table than what a McGinn or Akeson might be able to bring. That's not to diminish either player, but Akeson is not the defensive player that Gagne is and McGinn simply does not possess the skill that Gagne has.

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08-08-2013, 04:26 PM
  #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
DFF,

I think he can certainly play but at the expense of youth who can do the same things we would need at (a reported/thought of) cheaper price why wouldn't we want that.

I love Gags, but I think this ship HAS to sail away.

I think of the 3 options, 3 seems most likely and while very nice to seem, I don't think it makes sense to bring him back and use him esp. with the pieces we have looking to develop and take the time Gagne MAY take from them.
We do need wingers tho. A healthy left winger like gagne could fill a pretty good void for us if he signs for next to nothing which i think he will. I assumed there was already a deal worked out with him but were just waiting for the whole pronger LTIR thing to kick in at the beginning of the season. I still think he's capable of 20 25 goals with the right line mates.

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08-08-2013, 04:31 PM
  #406
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I still think Gagne could score 25 if hes healthy for a good part of the year. Hes more than a role player

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08-08-2013, 04:36 PM
  #407
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I think the 10-15 goal range would be more realistic for Gagne at this point. I don't buy the right linemates theory neither. He wasn't capitalizing on a lot of prime scoring chances setup by Giroux & Voracek late in the season.

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08-08-2013, 04:40 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I think the 10-15 goal range would be more realistic for Gagne at this point. I don't buy the right linemates theory neither. He wasn't capitalizing on a lot of prime scoring chances setup by Giroux & Voracek late in the season.
That goes back to 09-10, when Richards spent most of the season passing up shooting opportunities to set up Gagne and try to get him going. It was frustrating as hell.

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08-08-2013, 05:06 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
We do need wingers tho. A healthy left winger like gagne could fill a pretty good void for us if he signs for next to nothing which i think he will. I assumed there was already a deal worked out with him but were just waiting for the whole pronger LTIR thing to kick in at the beginning of the season. I still think he's capable of 20 25 goals with the right line mates.
Not necessarily. The offseason issue was whether Homer would replace Briere on the 2nd line. We speculated about Stalberg, Raymond, Gagne (and move Read up), etc. but when Lecavalier became available and signed, that all changed. Instead of a decent 2LW, we added a great 2C and moved Schenn to 2LW (and he's a better 2LW than any of the affordable UFA options).

The question of whether we can use Gagne depends largely on Laughton. If he makes the team, we don't need Gagne.

The bottom 7 look would look like this:

Talbot-Couts-Read
Rinaldo-Laughton-Hall
Rosehill

Depth:
The Usual Suspects: McGinn, Raffl, Akeson, Noebels, Brown, Cousins, Flanagan, etc.

If Laughton gets sent back to Oshawa, there is room for Gagne or one of the Usual Suspects.

Talbot can move around at all three positions in the bottom 6 as need be, which is his value.

If Laughton goes back to the OHL:

Gagne/Usual Suspect-Couts-Read
Rinaldo-Hall-Talbot
Rosehill

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08-08-2013, 06:00 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
DFF,

I think he can certainly play but at the expense of youth who can do the same things we would need at (a reported/thought of) cheaper price why wouldn't we want that.

I love Gags, but I think this ship HAS to sail away.

I think of the 3 options, 3 seems most likely and while very nice to seem, I don't think it makes sense to bring him back and use him esp. with the pieces we have looking to develop and take the time Gagne MAY take from them.
I think people over associate youth with being better. Like I said, I don't think it is fair to predict that anyone (other than Laughton, and that's a stretch, whom I have said I would prefer over Gagne, but don't think the Flyers are planning to move him to wing...which I obviously could be wrong on) of the other options will put up the points Gagne would and play as well defensively. And these guys are not blue chip prospects being blocked by Gagne, these are guys that at best will be career third liners (maybe Straka has a brighter future, but the jury is still out on that).

No one is expecting Gagne to score 40 again. But if he gets 40 total points, which I think is right around where he'd wind up (or at least on that pace if he gets injured), it would be a win. Yes he is injury prone, and if he is on a one year deal and gets injured, it is not an issue at all because the Flyers have the depth to throw out a young guy to attempt to fill that role. I also don't think the price difference is going to be an issue. I can't imagine the Flyers going higher than $2.5 mil at the absolutely most, which I don't think they'll do. If he fits under the cap, what's the issue? I wouldn't trade someone (other than Mez) as a salary dump to make room for Gagne.

With the young guys you don't know what you are getting, other than you know you are likely not going to get the production and defense Gagne will give you. Guys are going to get injured, whether it is Gagne, Read, Schenn, Giroux, whomever...the young guys will have a shot to play. And these guys aren't going anywhere. If Gagne plays the full 82 and McGinn, Akeson, and Straka are stuck in the AHL for another year, I don't think anyone is going to point to this year as the reason they aren't what they could be.

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08-08-2013, 07:52 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think people over associate youth with being better. Like I said, I don't think it is fair to predict that anyone (other than Laughton, and that's a stretch, whom I have said I would prefer over Gagne, but don't think the Flyers are planning to move him to wing...which I obviously could be wrong on) of the other options will put up the points Gagne would and play as well defensively. And these guys are not blue chip prospects being blocked by Gagne, these are guys that at best will be career third liners (maybe Straka has a brighter future, but the jury is still out on that).

No one is expecting Gagne to score 40 again. But if he gets 40 total points, which I think is right around where he'd wind up (or at least on that pace if he gets injured), it would be a win. Yes he is injury prone, and if he is on a one year deal and gets injured, it is not an issue at all because the Flyers have the depth to throw out a young guy to attempt to fill that role. I also don't think the price difference is going to be an issue. I can't imagine the Flyers going higher than $2.5 mil at the absolutely most, which I don't think they'll do. If he fits under the cap, what's the issue? I wouldn't trade someone (other than Mez) as a salary dump to make room for Gagne.

With the young guys you don't know what you are getting, other than you know you are likely not going to get the production and defense Gagne will give you. Guys are going to get injured, whether it is Gagne, Read, Schenn, Giroux, whomever...the young guys will have a shot to play. And these guys aren't going anywhere. If Gagne plays the full 82 and McGinn, Akeson, and Straka are stuck in the AHL for another year, I don't think anyone is going to point to this year as the reason they aren't what they could be.
I agree. We NEED wingers. these younger guys are not blue chips and people seem to think we can just keep shifting all these centers to wing and it'll be fine. natural centers moving to wing have positioning problems as briere seemed to and he's one of the better ones. They want that puck and think they can get away with moving in and out of their lanes but you pay for that in the NHL as we did defensively over the last couple years. Sometimes taking these guys out of their comfort zone is detrimental at this level regardless of the common excuse that it doesn't matter because their professionals. There's no question if gagne is healthy he's an asset and an upgrade to youth because of his all around game.

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08-08-2013, 09:35 PM
  #412
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I agree. We NEED wingers. these younger guys are not blue chips and people seem to think we can just keep shifting all these centers to wing and it'll be fine. natural centers moving to wing have positioning problems as briere seemed to and he's one of the better ones. They want that puck and think they can get away with moving in and out of their lanes but you pay for that in the NHL as we did defensively over the last couple years. Sometimes taking these guys out of their comfort zone is detrimental at this level regardless of the common excuse that it doesn't matter because their professionals. There's no question if gagne is healthy he's an asset and an upgrade to youth because of his all around game.
I understand why Gagne has value, but except for Brayden Schenn, who plays well at LW, who else are we moving?

Briere is not a good example for your point. He can no longer play centre because he can't do the defensive duty required. On the wing, he can't check his point or forecheck. He has a knack for clutch scoring, but if he's not actually scoring, he is such a liability he's not worth having on the ice.

As I posted, if Laughton makes the team the roster is basically full, if you put Hall on the 4th line.

Where is Gagne going to play, if Laughton makes the team and no one else is traded?

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08-09-2013, 12:17 AM
  #413
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I don't want to beat a dead horse here, because I've already stated being against Gagne returning. But in the last two weeks I've gone back and watched 7 games from late in the season. In many of those games Gagne is paired with Giroux and Voracek.

The big 2 repeatedly would set up Gagne for prime scoring opportunities, and he just couldn't finish. A lot of the time, Gagne would put himself in a good position to succeed. He just was unable to time and time again.

Other times I noticed Gagne being a step slow on getting to the net for rebounds or screens. Obviously, everyone knows he has no business playing with G and Jake. But if he couldn't succeed even a little playing with those 2, he can't succeed with anyone. I just think he's pretty much done. He certainly won't kill you on the ice with dumb stuff, turnovers, etc. But I just don't see him bringing much to the table anymore.

I 100% think Laughton gets the final roster spot. He probably will start centering the 4th line, then eventually move up to the 3rd line LW as the season progresses. Talbot starts the year as 3LW imo.

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08-09-2013, 12:23 AM
  #414
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I don't want to beat a dead horse here, because I've already stated being against Gagne returning. But in the last two weeks I've gone back and watched 7 games from late in the season. In many of those games Gagne is paired with Giroux and Voracek.

The big 2 repeatedly would set up Gagne for prime scoring opportunities, and he just couldn't finish. A lot of the time, Gagne would put himself in a good position to succeed. He just was unable to time and time again.

Other times I noticed Gagne being a step slow on getting to the net for rebounds or screens. Obviously, everyone knows he has no business playing with G and Jake. But if he couldn't succeed even a little playing with those 2, he can't succeed with anyone. I just think he's pretty much done. He certainly won't kill you on the ice with dumb stuff, turnovers, etc. But I just don't see him bringing much to the table anymore.
I specifically remember the Carolina game, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. He owed Giroux like 5 additional assists that game.

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08-09-2013, 12:56 AM
  #415
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I specifically remember the Carolina game, he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. He owed Giroux like 5 additional assists that game.
That was one of the games I watched. You are remembering correctly. It was almost embarrassing for Gagne.

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08-09-2013, 06:52 AM
  #416
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Go back and watch some of his better games. I can watch a couple random games of Giroux and say he isn't worth his new contract. He didn't play great, but he put up good numbers for a third liner and played a solid defensive game throughout the season. That's really all you can hope for in a third liner.

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08-09-2013, 07:29 AM
  #417
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So out line up COULD look like this:

Hartnel - Roo - Vora
Schenn - Vinny - Simmonds/Read
Talbout - Coots - Simmonds/Read
xxx-xxx-xxx

I think READ can do what Gagne is capable of right now in his career. I also think that a younger player can fill a 3rd line role just as good if not better than Gagne now too.

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08-09-2013, 09:58 AM
  #418
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I understand why Gagne has value, but except for Brayden Schenn, who plays well at LW, who else are we moving?

Briere is not a good example for your point. He can no longer play centre because he can't do the defensive duty required. On the wing, he can't check his point or forecheck. He has a knack for clutch scoring, but if he's not actually scoring, he is such a liability he's not worth having on the ice.

As I posted, if Laughton makes the team the roster is basically full, if you put Hall on the 4th line.

Where is Gagne going to play, if Laughton makes the team and no one else is traded?
laughton isn't making the team if they don't have gagne. hes just being given a roster spot. if he cant beat out an aging gagne or brayden schenn then he definitely should go back to juniors. hes 19, next year when reads spot is open he can try again. if he still cant win a spot then its the ahl. depth and competition are good things

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08-09-2013, 10:04 AM
  #419
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
laughton isn't making the team if they don't have gagne. hes just being given a roster spot. if he cant beat out an aging gagne or brayden schenn then he definitely should go back to juniors. hes 19, next year when reads spot is open he can try again. if he still cant win a spot then its the ahl. depth and competition are good things
??? Why would Laughton be required to beat out Brayden Schenn? Brayden Schenn is not going anywhere and Laughton's inability to beat out Schenn would not preclude a roster spot. Schenn is a much better player than you appear to be giving him credit for (he was on a 40+ point pace last season).

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08-09-2013, 10:12 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
laughton isn't making the team if they don't have gagne. hes just being given a roster spot. if he cant beat out an aging gagne or brayden schenn then he definitely should go back to juniors. hes 19, next year when reads spot is open he can try again. if he still cant win a spot then its the ahl. depth and competition are good things
I would be fine with Laughton going back to Jr. if he doesn't earn a spot this year. He will continue to develop, fill out and have a chance to play at WJC.

However, a lot of people on here, and more importantly in the Flyers' organization, think he might be ready now - or was last season.

If that is Lavy's call, and Homer doesn't trade away any other forwards before camp, then we don't need Gagne.

That decision - if it hasn't already been made - will have to wait for camp, in which case so might Gagne for a contract until they decide if Laughton's is sliding or not.

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08-09-2013, 10:35 AM
  #421
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??? Why would Laughton be required to beat out Brayden Schenn? Brayden Schenn is not going anywhere and Laughton's inability to beat out Schenn would not preclude a roster spot. Schenn is a much better player than you appear to be giving him credit for (he was on a 40+ point pace last season).
Hes the second line winger and the obvious 6 in our top 6. that's the spot I want laughton competing for. I dot think hes nhl ready unless hes Competing for that spot.

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I would be fine with Laughton going back to Jr. if he doesn't earn a spot this year. He will continue to develop, fill out and have a chance to play at WJC.

However, a lot of people on here, and more importantly in the Flyers' organization, think he might be ready now - or was last season.

If that is Lavy's call, and Homer doesn't trade away any other forwards before camp, then we don't need Gagne.

That decision - if it hasn't already been made - will have to wait for camp, in which case so might Gagne for a contract until they decide if Laughton's is sliding or not.
im under the assumption they have an agreement in principle with gagne at this point. otherwise I see us in the position of laughton sliding and having to skate one of mcginn/akeson/noebles. in otherwords this team isn't as good if we don't have him signed when camp starts

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08-09-2013, 11:12 AM
  #422
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Hes the second line winger and the obvious 6 in our top 6. that's the spot I want laughton competing for. I dot think hes nhl ready unless hes Competing for that spot.
Huh? So for you, Laughton is 2nd line, top 6 or bust? In that case, it may be several years before he makes the NHL.

Frankly, that is just a bit ridiculous. Laughton might make the team as 4C (as did Couts, Richards and every rookie before them) or possibly 3LW, but he's definitely not cracking the current top 6 for a few more years.

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08-09-2013, 11:32 AM
  #423
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Hes the second line winger and the obvious 6 in our top 6. that's the spot I want laughton competing for. I dot think hes nhl ready unless hes Competing for that spot.
Well then Laughton is not in your future plans (at least not any time soon). The top six of Giroux, Schenn, VL, Voracek, Hartnell, and Simmonds is pretty well locked down for the foreseeable future barring any injuries. He'd have a better shot passing Hartnell or Simminds.

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08-09-2013, 11:56 AM
  #424
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Why anyone wants Laughton on the wing is beyond me. His skill set is exactly tailor made for center. Putting him on the wing is a waste of what he brings to the table. If he can't crack the third line spot (and don't even get me started on wasting him on the fourth line), then it's best that Laughton be sent back to junior, lead his OHL club to a long play off run, and play a ton of minutes against quality peers at the WJC.

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08-09-2013, 12:00 PM
  #425
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Why anyone wants Laughton on the wing is beyond me. His skill set is exactly tailor made for center. Putting him on the wing is a waste of what he brings to the table. If he can't crack the third line spot (and don't even get me started on wasting him on the fourth line), then it's best that Laughton be sent back to junior, lead his OHL club to a long play off run, and play a ton of minutes against quality peers at the WJC.
I don't disagree but where do you see Laughton long term? Giroux and Lecavalier will be top 6 centers for at least the next 3 years. Couturier hopefully moves into the 2nd line center within the next 3 years as well. That leaves the 3rd Line center open but not for another 3 years or so. I think you have to move Laughton to the wing at least temporarily

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