HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

The Offseason Thread V: Needs to End Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-09-2013, 08:57 AM
  #576
Emptyvoid
Registered User
 
Emptyvoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,303
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
You are selling Derek short and Bergeron is not the best two way center in the league Datsyuk is.

Step will not likely be as good as PB on draws ever. However, he is extremely competitive, a natural leader and he has great vision on the ice and is a great distributor of the puck (better than Bergeron if I may be so bold as to suggest). Time will tell how good he becomes, but to create a ceiling for him at 23 is not smart.
This hasn't happened yet. Stepan was amazing last year, one of the most consistent regular seasons we've seen from a Ranger in a long while. Didn't have big nights, but had a single point in a lot of games.

He still hasn't reached the level of playmaking that he was touted for in college, he still hasn't been a consistent night-in night-out playmaker. He showed last year though that he's right there, ready to make the jump. Some of the passes and plays he made last year showed he's ready for the next step.

Emptyvoid is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 09:34 AM
  #577
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 16,700
vCash: 500
The over the top trashing of MDZ definitely orginates from a sickness this fanbase got during the post-cup years. More or less.

People use alot of terms like braindead and mental lapses and stuff about MDZ, I don't get it. Defensemen makes misstakes with the puck. If you play with small marginals, you will make more misstakes. It comes with the territory! Sure, we as fans can complain on misstakes. But its like -- forwards -- get a free pass completely, because some fans just don't spot the misstakes they make, which puts our D's in their eyes in a much worse light.

Does MDZ make more or even more costly misstakes than Derek Stepan, Ryan Callahan, Carl Hagelin, Rich Nash and co? Why is it worse if Stepan on a 2 on 1 fails to pass the puck from E to W than if MDZ gives the puck away and causes a 2 on 1? Seriously? In one situation you give away a 2 on 1, and in the other you give up one? If Ryan Callahan gets to fire away on a goalie moving from post to post, he should put it home. If he doesn't put it home, that is a "misstake" too. A misstake like that warrants a "darn" in a GDT, a give away warrants 1000's of posts and terms like brain dead. Callahan is just as braindead for not putting that one-timer up top.

-In 19 of 20 offensive situations, everything achived is a bonus.

-In 99 of 100 defensive situations, everything achived is a must.

And this has especially annoyed me during the Torts era, when everything, and I litterary mean almost everything, we achived offensively where after we forced D's on the other side of the ice to caugh up pucks. All the while every single play when our D's caughed up a puck, it was seen as complete mindboggling misstake and some just don't seem to be able to fantom how a D can be such horrible player that he caugh up the puck after being pressured on the forecheck. Its ridiculous.

Just go to nhl.com and look at random goals. How many goals in hockey is scored wtihin 4-5 sec after the team scoring the goal winning the puck? And in 3 of 4 plays, its the D's caughing up the puck. This league would be extemely low scoring if D's never caughed up the puck. I don't at all think MDZ has brain lapses and what not. Letang, Doughty, Dan Boyle, Kimmo Timmonen, Erik Karlsson and co all make misstakes with the puck. For MDZ, its something he gotta work on. For sure. But is it worse for MDZ to caugh up the puck as he does, than for say Ryan Callahan to not be able to pass the puck? It certainly wouldn't hurt if Callahan worked some on his play making ability either. Nobody would ever dream of tearing Callahan apart because he isn't a good play maker. But its the one big weakness he have for sure. If he didn't have it, if he was a strong playmaker, he would score closer to 80 pts per year. That is what, 15-20 goals per year we loose from him not being a good playmaker. Does MDZ cause 15-20 goals with giveaways every year? Does he even cause 5 goals per year? 3 goals?

I don't say that our forwards should be trashed more, or that our D's should be trashed less. Its a free world. But I don't at all get the large numbers of fans -- especially watching alot of live games at MSG -- who focus solely on D's ability to never make a misstake over every other ability that our hockey team has on the ice.

Ola is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 11:08 AM
  #578
Gardner McKay
Hey Hey...
 
Gardner McKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Abingdon, VA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,911
vCash: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Del Zotto is a bigger whipping boy than Boyle on here... yet the same people will seem to defend Kreider to death, despite Del Zotto proving a hell of a lot more.. weird.
Amen dude. Kreider can do no wrong. DZ can do no right.

__________________
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction."
Gardner McKay is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 11:13 AM
  #579
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Me Maybe View Post
Amen dude. Kreider can do no wrong. DZ can do no right.
Despite being one draft class apart, I feel like Del Zotto is yesterday's news because of the large amount of games hes played. If Kreider struggles again this season, you'll see things start to change.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 11:34 AM
  #580
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Despite being one draft class apart, I feel like Del Zotto is yesterday's news because of the large amount of games hes played. If Kreider struggles again this season, you'll see things start to change.
Seems like he's all athleticism and very little IQ.

Silence Of The Plams is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 11:40 AM
  #581
Off Sides
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 663
vCash: 50
If by the time Kreider and/or Miller get to 250 NHL games and are making the same high risk low percentage plays they did in their NHL debut seasons, I think any criticism they get would be warranted.

Off Sides is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 11:56 AM
  #582
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
It's warranted when they fail to improve or learn from mistakes.

Silence Of The Plams is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 11:58 AM
  #583
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Seems like he's all athleticism and very little IQ.
Thats been the book on Kreider since he was drafted.

Hockey IQ can be taught. His physical attributes cannot. What bothered me most about last season was you rarely saw even those physical attributes being put to good use.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:02 PM
  #584
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Thats been the book on Kreider since he was drafted.

Hockey IQ can be taught. His physical attributes cannot. What bothered me most about last season was you rarely saw even those physical attributes being put to good use.
Combination of the lack of IQ And horrible situations to play in. I agree that IQ can be taught, but only to such an extent.

Silence Of The Plams is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:03 PM
  #585
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
regardless of injuries I think that would have been the top line out of the gate.

in trying to bring out the most in a player offensively, you need to put that player with offensive players.

Kreider is not going to show anyone anything playing with offensive slugs like Boyle and Dorsett

Kreider is a finisher and needs to be with players that can get him the puck. He's not a distributor and asking him to show offensive ability from a 3rd/4th line role is asking to see a player struggle with his responsibilities.

It's not a matter of Kreider being the best option for that spot, it's about drawing out of Kreider what the package suggests he is capable of delivering.

I was hoping that that would have happened playing with Richards last year but Brad was to busy chasing that NY tail that his legs were shot and he was a shell of a player.
I agree, but I thought AV might keep the Hagelin-Stepan-Nash line together since it was beastly last season for us. Kreider could have played with Richards/Brassard and Callahan. As a matter of fact, if Richards returns to himself, then I think the best guy for Kreider to play with is him.

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:04 PM
  #586
JohnC
#FreeSteve
 
JohnC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 4,342
vCash: 500
I'd hardly say Kreider can do no wrong around here. I've seen plenty of criticism thrown his way. Maybe not as much as Del Zotto or Boyle but plenty of it

JohnC is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:26 PM
  #587
aufheben
Moderator
Jung at heart
 
aufheben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The jam must flow...
Country: Angola
Posts: 7,152
vCash: 50
Of course all defensemen make mistakes, not letting them get to you is the crucial part. What happens when McDonagh makes a mistake?

aufheben is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:28 PM
  #588
Bardof425*
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The over the top trashing of MDZ definitely orginates from a sickness this fanbase got during the post-cup years. More or less.

People use alot of terms like braindead and mental lapses and stuff about MDZ, I don't get it. Defensemen makes misstakes with the puck. If you play with small marginals, you will make more misstakes. It comes with the territory! Sure, we as fans can complain on misstakes. But its like -- forwards -- get a free pass completely, because some fans just don't spot the misstakes they make, which puts our D's in their eyes in a much worse light.

Does MDZ make more or even more costly misstakes than Derek Stepan, Ryan Callahan, Carl Hagelin, Rich Nash and co? Why is it worse if Stepan on a 2 on 1 fails to pass the puck from E to W than if MDZ gives the puck away and causes a 2 on 1? Seriously? In one situation you give away a 2 on 1, and in the other you give up one? If Ryan Callahan gets to fire away on a goalie moving from post to post, he should put it home. If he doesn't put it home, that is a "misstake" too. A misstake like that warrants a "darn" in a GDT, a give away warrants 1000's of posts and terms like brain dead. Callahan is just as braindead for not putting that one-timer up top.

-In 19 of 20 offensive situations, everything achived is a bonus.

-In 99 of 100 defensive situations, everything achived is a must.

And this has especially annoyed me during the Torts era, when everything, and I litterary mean almost everything, we achived offensively where after we forced D's on the other side of the ice to caugh up pucks. All the while every single play when our D's caughed up a puck, it was seen as complete mindboggling misstake and some just don't seem to be able to fantom how a D can be such horrible player that he caugh up the puck after being pressured on the forecheck. Its ridiculous.

Just go to nhl.com and look at random goals. How many goals in hockey is scored wtihin 4-5 sec after the team scoring the goal winning the puck? And in 3 of 4 plays, its the D's caughing up the puck. This league would be extemely low scoring if D's never caughed up the puck. I don't at all think MDZ has brain lapses and what not. Letang, Doughty, Dan Boyle, Kimmo Timmonen, Erik Karlsson and co all make misstakes with the puck. For MDZ, its something he gotta work on. For sure. But is it worse for MDZ to caugh up the puck as he does, than for say Ryan Callahan to not be able to pass the puck? It certainly wouldn't hurt if Callahan worked some on his play making ability either. Nobody would ever dream of tearing Callahan apart because he isn't a good play maker. But its the one big weakness he have for sure. If he didn't have it, if he was a strong playmaker, he would score closer to 80 pts per year. That is what, 15-20 goals per year we loose from him not being a good playmaker. Does MDZ cause 15-20 goals with giveaways every year? Does he even cause 5 goals per year? 3 goals?

I don't say that our forwards should be trashed more, or that our D's should be trashed less. Its a free world. But I don't at all get the large numbers of fans -- especially watching alot of live games at MSG -- who focus solely on D's ability to never make a misstake over every other ability that our hockey team has on the ice.
I'm guessing Willy Huber and James Patrick would disagree with this statement. It's as old as time at the Garden.

Bardof425* is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:36 PM
  #589
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Combination of the lack of IQ And horrible situations to play in. I agree that IQ can be taught, but only to such an extent.
"Horrible situations to play in" is no excuse for not moving your feet or looking generally disengaged.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:36 PM
  #590
Bardof425*
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Me Maybe View Post
Amen dude. Kreider can do no wrong. DZ can do no right.
Kreider largely gets a pass (at this point) because the regular season sample is so small. He has scored some big goals in limited playoff time which gives us hope that in a full season playing on a scoring line, he will relax and bury the bisquit on a regular basis. if he gets a full season and still looks lost, the criticism will ramp up. MDZ has had a few years to work through the kinks and there are still some which need attention. I see him get lazy after he turns the puck over and at the end of shifts. When he is confident and his energy level is high he is one of the better young D-men in the league. Let's hope he's feeling good about himself this year. if he does he will break out under AV and justify his draft position.

Bardof425* is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:37 PM
  #591
Jabroni
Moderator
The Corporate Mod
 
Jabroni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,280
vCash: 500
As it was mention before, let's see what Kreider does with more playing time and NHL games under his belt. Del Zotto has played a lot of games and has had prominent minutes at the NHL level.

Jabroni is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #592
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
"Horrible situations to play in" is no excuse for not moving your feet or looking generally disengaged.
No it isn't. I should've been more precise on what I was talking about having to do with horrible situations. By that I meant he seemed to have been on with some less fitting mates. But yeah. He really didn't seem to show much of his physicality. But it did show in the playoffs some.

On top of the IQ thing, I think he needs to learn to move and use his feet/assert himself in at this level. Not college anymore.

Silence Of The Plams is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 12:45 PM
  #593
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabroni View Post
As it was mention before, let's see what Kreider does with more playing time and NHL games under his belt. Del Zotto has played a lot of games and has had prominent minutes at the NHL level.
Yea, but the problem I have with that is it lets too many people continue to project Kreider in any light they see fit.

If the argument is "Well, Del Zotto has played 250 NHL games, so we know what he is," you also have to acknowledge the fact that Del Zotto held down an NHL job much earlier than Kreider did. To me, thats more commendable than anything.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 01:01 PM
  #594
Off Sides
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 663
vCash: 50
I at least am not trying to say Del Zotto is terribad or anything like that.

It's the low percentage plays he still makes that I do not understand.

A 100 foot stretch pass up the middle of the ice is a low percentage play. Picking the opposite corner high when shooting is a low percentage play, and not only that, it traps half the team when it goes out of the zone.

If a forward was out there making drop passes, or making turnovers at either the blue line or trying to beat 4 defenders in the neutral zone he'd be getting criticized as well. Miller falls into this category in my opinion, if he is still around and doing it after 250 NHL games, I'd expect similar things to be said about him. Richards was doing these things last season and it was noticed. Nylander used to do it but he was good at it so it was forgiven since Jagr scored 100 goals or whatever.

Being creative in certain areas of the ice is one thing, attempting to be creative with low percentage plays in certain areas of the ice where inherently if things go wrong it's like handing quality scoring chances to the other team is different.

Is this where I say nice things about Del Zotto so I do not get piled on? He is relatively tough and can sometimes be good defensively. When he gets on his horse instead of throwing the puck up ice, he can actually be a good puck transporter. When he takes charge of the puck and hits the net with his shot, it improves the Rangers chances of generating offense.

Off Sides is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 01:53 PM
  #595
Jabroni
Moderator
The Corporate Mod
 
Jabroni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yea, but the problem I have with that is it lets too many people continue to project Kreider in any light they see fit.

If the argument is "Well, Del Zotto has played 250 NHL games, so we know what he is," you also have to acknowledge the fact that Del Zotto held down an NHL job much earlier than Kreider did. To me, thats more commendable than anything.
Very true.

Del Zotto is very frustrating to watch. But it must be understood that he only 22 and has more time to develop. The same with Kreider. However, Kreider hasn't played that much at the NHL level, so people project what he could be. Which is fine because you can see the potential.

People cement Del Zotto as what they see because he has been in the league for a little while now. It's just that they forget how young he is any many players are just coming into the league at this point.

__________________
Jabroni is online now  
Old
08-09-2013, 02:05 PM
  #596
bernmeister
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
DZ is usually okay in his own end but he isn't great. Sucked in the playoffs. He's a 40 point scorer once and a high 30 point scorer his rookie year. Last year would have pro-rated to about high 30's. Where he needs to get is 50+--right now he's looking an awful lot like Matt Carle--he needs to stop that. DZ improves his stats that much and I think the Rangers pwp should improve too. This will also be his contract year--he should have that much extra incentive. Shouldn't get a big raise if he doesn't really improve his offensive numbers. Rangers want him to be their pwp guy--won't need to talk about trading for one all the time if he can start playing like one.

Comment on Kreider--he tends to get off to slow starts. He did it in college and in his rookie pro season. Tortorella didn't seem to have the patience for that. It would help Chris if he got out of the blocks a little faster this time. Hopefully his game will begin to diversify--maybe work him into occasional pk'ing.
Good point, but I think w/Torts gone all signs are good to go with no distractions or hurdles.

bernmeister is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 02:21 PM
  #597
Raymones
Registered User
 
Raymones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
I at least am not trying to say Del Zotto is terribad or anything like that.

It's the low percentage plays he still makes that I do not understand.

A 100 foot stretch pass up the middle of the ice is a low percentage play. Picking the opposite corner high when shooting is a low percentage play, and not only that, it traps half the team when it goes out of the zone.

If a forward was out there making drop passes, or making turnovers at either the blue line or trying to beat 4 defenders in the neutral zone he'd be getting criticized as well. Miller falls into this category in my opinion, if he is still around and doing it after 250 NHL games, I'd expect similar things to be said about him. Richards was doing these things last season and it was noticed. Nylander used to do it but he was good at it so it was forgiven since Jagr scored 100 goals or whatever.

Being creative in certain areas of the ice is one thing, attempting to be creative with low percentage plays in certain areas of the ice where inherently if things go wrong it's like handing quality scoring chances to the other team is different.

Is this where I say nice things about Del Zotto so I do not get piled on? He is relatively tough and can sometimes be good defensively. When he gets on his horse instead of throwing the puck up ice, he can actually be a good puck transporter. When he takes charge of the puck and hits the net with his shot, it improves the Rangers chances of generating offense.
Agreed, good post.

Raymones is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 02:55 PM
  #598
Dactyl
Registered User
 
Dactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,583
vCash: 500
correct me if im wrong but dodnt torts say that he had to stop watching whale games during the lockout because he was developing negative opinions about certain players? if he did say that, its clear as day who he was talking about

Dactyl is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 03:16 PM
  #599
JohnC
#FreeSteve
 
JohnC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 4,342
vCash: 500
I don't like saying nonsensical things about the Torts/Kreider relationship, but it was pretty obvious there was a disconnect between coaching and management on what to do with him

JohnC is offline  
Old
08-09-2013, 03:34 PM
  #600
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 16,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
I at least am not trying to say Del Zotto is terribad or anything like that.

It's the low percentage plays he still makes that I do not understand.

A 100 foot stretch pass up the middle of the ice is a low percentage play. Picking the opposite corner high when shooting is a low percentage play, and not only that, it traps half the team when it goes out of the zone.

If a forward was out there making drop passes, or making turnovers at either the blue line or trying to beat 4 defenders in the neutral zone he'd be getting criticized as well. Miller falls into this category in my opinion, if he is still around and doing it after 250 NHL games, I'd expect similar things to be said about him. Richards was doing these things last season and it was noticed. Nylander used to do it but he was good at it so it was forgiven since Jagr scored 100 goals or whatever.

Being creative in certain areas of the ice is one thing, attempting to be creative with low percentage plays in certain areas of the ice where inherently if things go wrong it's like handing quality scoring chances to the other team is different.

Is this where I say nice things about Del Zotto so I do not get piled on? He is relatively tough and can sometimes be good defensively. When he gets on his horse instead of throwing the puck up ice, he can actually be a good puck transporter. When he takes charge of the puck and hits the net with his shot, it improves the Rangers chances of generating offense.
But MDZ can hardly be labeled as a Michael Nylander on the blueline.

He just makes normal plays for a PMD.

He is more like Stepan on defense and in relation play with just as small marginals as Stepan. MDZ doesn't play with small marginals in relation to the avg PMD. It's probably more like the opposite.

You describe him trying to make a long pass and pick a corner when shooting. Is that really that bad lol? Compareable to a forward tryin to stickhandle through an entire team and drop passing the puck all over the place???

Ola is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.