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Old
08-07-2013, 07:53 PM
  #51
end2endrush
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I think Girardi may actually be dealt within the next year. You have to remember McIlrath is knocking on the door to the NHL, plays a pretty similar game to Girardi, plays the right side. If be bangs out a real good year, he could ultimately make Girardi expendable.

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08-07-2013, 10:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
Actually, that was Brendan Smith who was paired with McDonagh. They were the best pairing in the NCAA. IIRC, Gardiner played with Goloubef.

Anyways, I'd want a top six/borderline 1st line winger and a top-4 RD. Think Purcell + Salo.
So for your Top 4 dman (who is borderline top 2) you want a younger top 4 dman and a top 6 (pref. top line winger) ?

Girardi may be one of the most overrated players in the league.

Little offense for a guy who is on the PP and he is carried at times by strong partners.

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08-07-2013, 11:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Nashology View Post
So for your Top 4 dman (who is borderline top 2) you want a younger top 4 dman and a top 6 (pref. top line winger) ?

Girardi may be one of the most overrated players in the league.

Little offense for a guy who is on the PP and he is carried at times by strong partners.
Or underrated by our own fan base

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08-07-2013, 11:35 PM
  #54
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Gorges, LeBlanc and a 2nd round pick

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08-07-2013, 11:36 PM
  #55
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My Gardiner senses are tingling.

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08-07-2013, 11:40 PM
  #56
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My Gardiner senses are tingling.
Let's not. One Del Zotto is bad enough, two would destroy our franchise as we know it.

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08-08-2013, 08:18 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashology View Post

Girardi may be one of the most overrated players in the league.
Fascinating how many non-Ranger fans start proposals for such an overrated player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashology View Post

Little offense for a guy who is on the PP and he is carried at times by strong partners.

Offense is really how you want to measure Girardi as a player?

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08-08-2013, 10:44 AM
  #58
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JVR + Gardiner for Girardi is probably what it would take for me to come to terms with moving Girardi.

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Old
08-08-2013, 11:24 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by avsfansince95 View Post
Elliot and barrie are right

and im not 100% positive but I'm pretty sure Siemens is left
Barrie, Siemens, AVs 2014 1st
for
Girardi, MDZ ?

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Old
08-08-2013, 12:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by end2endrush View Post
I think Girardi may actually be dealt within the next year. You have to remember McIlrath is knocking on the door to the NHL, plays a pretty similar game to Girardi, plays the right side. If be bangs out a real good year, he could ultimately make Girardi expendable.
So you're willing to trade a guy who plays 27 HARD minutes a night for a serious contending teams because the Rangers have a very "raw" prospect who hasn't played an NHL game?

First - if McI ever turns into the type of player that Girardi is, the Rangers are ridiculously lucky.

Second - even if the Rangers are lucky and have McI develop, that is probably at least 2-3 process before McI could potentially be ready to replace Girardi.

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08-08-2013, 12:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
JVR + Gardiner for Girardi is probably what it would take for me to come to terms with moving Girardi.
So a guy who is 1 year from UFA is worth a 1st line forward (IMO) signed to a good deal for 4 more years, and a young high potential PMD?

I think the Rangers would be REALLY lucky to get either player, and IMO would probably have to add something just based on Girardi only being one year from UFA eligibility.


Last edited by OgoBoHo: 08-08-2013 at 10:05 PM. Reason: unnecessary comment removed
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Old
08-08-2013, 12:33 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Barrie, Siemens, AVs 2014 1st
for
Girardi, MDZ ?

Not in a million years would this happen

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Old
08-08-2013, 12:55 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Barrie, Siemens, AVs 2014 1st
for
Girardi, MDZ ?
Uh, why? We can hope that Barrie and Siemens turn into something comparable to Girardi/Del Zotto, and if we did this deal the Avs probably make the playoffs. This is horribad for us, Hank would start packing his bags the day this deal is announced.

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08-08-2013, 06:39 PM
  #64
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
Uh, why? We can hope that Barrie and Siemens turn into something comparable to Girardi/Del Zotto, and if we did this deal the Avs probably make the playoffs. This is horribad for us, Hank would start packing his bags the day this deal is announced.
Hank will pack his bags if this team doesn't improve in a reasonably short time.
You guys gotta stop hoping to make swindle after swindle.
Gotta think outside the box, pay something in veteran dollars to get PROFITABLE upside w/prospects. NOT any prospects, but ones w/reasonable chance to stick and do well.


Barrie helps out on the RD, not the D shutdown like Girardi but better overall and so far we have ballpark idea of Girardi's plateau, not to say he can't dig down for another career year or two, but he see the scope of his solid but limited game. Barrie less than Girardi, but is less developed and has lots of upside, plus already NHL and likely to improve with experience. Another way to look at this is we are losing the wear and tear on Girardi for the chance --- I would argue reasonable expectation --- that Barrie will be a negligible gain as an immediate replacement, but could turn into an actual gain in short enough time.

MDZ better than Siemens, but Siemens, who was like what 8th, 12th overall, just getting there now. Siemens + McIlrath probably not too often, keep 1 stay at home w/1 puck rusher. But that is a bonecrusher combo.

What you are overlooking is the first.
Sure no matter what **** we step in, we can't be as lucky as the Bruins in trading Kessel then getting to draft Seguin #2.
No reason to believe we would be lucky enough that AVs would again wind up w/1st overall.

Still, injuries and stranger things have happened, and a spare 1st is a great asset.

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Old
08-08-2013, 09:42 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Hank will pack his bags if this team doesn't improve in a reasonably short time.
So what you're saying is that if we make that trade you proposed, then Henrik is gone? Because that doesn't make us better in the reasonably short time. Not sure how you can't see that, other than I'm pretty sure you don't really watch or understand the game at all. Like, 0%. If less were possible then it would be.

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Old
08-09-2013, 02:55 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
So what you're saying is that if we make that trade you proposed, then Henrik is gone? Because that doesn't make us better in the reasonably short time. Not sure how you can't see that, other than I'm pretty sure you don't really watch or understand the game at all. Like, 0%. If less were possible then it would be.
Disagree.
If we get a guy like Siemens right after he's been drafted, then he's not available 2-3 years.
If we get a guy like Siemens now, he probably makes the club at some point this year.

More importantly, Hank will see not only getting younger and less banged up, but increased options as to salary cap, and the first, which you graciously ignored mentioning.

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Old
08-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
JVR + Gardiner for Girardi is probably what it would take for me to come to terms with moving Girardi.
That's not happening. I think Leaf fans overrate both guys although Gardiner is still an unknown. Even with that said, the Rangers would have to add.

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08-09-2013, 04:20 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
JVR + Gardiner for Girardi is probably what it would take for me to come to terms with moving Girardi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
So a guy who is 1 year from UFA is worth a 1st line forward (IMO) signed to a good deal for 4 more years, and a young high potential PMD?
My thoughts exactly.

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08-09-2013, 04:58 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Disagree.
If we get a guy like Siemens right after he's been drafted, then he's not available 2-3 years.
If we get a guy like Siemens now, he probably makes the club at some point this year.

More importantly, Hank will see not only getting younger and less banged up, but increased options as to salary cap, and the first, which you graciously ignored mentioning.
Just so you know.

31 year old players in the prime of their careers do not care about getting younger or first round picks that will not help that player win in the immediate future (next 2 years minimum)

Taking the significant step back that would be Girardi and MDZ to Barrie and Siemens would be a slap in the face of Lundqvist and would do more to PUSH HIM OUT THE DOOR, then to keep him interested in staying in NY.

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08-09-2013, 05:48 PM
  #70
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
...
Quote:
Just so you know.
Thank you for keeping me informed.
Even if it is just opinion and not fact.

Quote:
31 year old players in the prime of their careers do not care about getting younger or first round picks that will not help that player win in the immediate future (next 2 years minimum)
Players of all ages want to win.
Hank has put in dues here. If here does not improve, he will want to bolt.

There is no way to 100% guarantee win, but my method is theoretically certain improvement, and CUMULATIVELY over enough time adds enough resources to have the horses needed to win.

But if we take stupid desperate gambles, like giving away a 2nd for Clowe, we shoot ourselves in the foot. If we do that repeatedly, Hank and everyone else of value will get out of here.

And it will be because they followed a strategy YOU are espousing, not me.


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Taking the significant step back that would be Girardi and MDZ to Barrie and Siemens
Hold it, HOLD IT, HOLD IT.
1. That assumes facts not in evidence, which is as to immediately only. We can't say definitely yes or no, but in 3-4 years Siemens could be the best of the bunch!

2. Again, it was not 2 for 2. A precious AVs first was in the equation, which you ignore.

Quote:
[...] would be a slap in the face of Lundqvist and would do more to PUSH HIM OUT THE DOOR, then to keep him interested in staying in NY.
I think if he sees reasonable basis of steady and sustained progress, that will be ok initially. If he sees desperate moves, and they fail, well... what can I say but


... that would make me correct!

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08-09-2013, 10:36 PM
  #71
BPD
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Thank you for keeping me informed.
Even if it is just opinion and not fact.


Players of all ages want to win.
Hank has put in dues here. If here does not improve, he will want to bolt.

There is no way to 100% guarantee win, but my method is theoretically certain improvement, and CUMULATIVELY over enough time adds enough resources to have the horses needed to win.

But if we take stupid desperate gambles, like giving away a 2nd for Clowe, we shoot ourselves in the foot. If we do that repeatedly, Hank and everyone else of value will get out of here.

And it will be because they followed a strategy YOU are espousing, not me.



Hold it, HOLD IT, HOLD IT.
1. That assumes facts not in evidence, which is as to immediately only. We can't say definitely yes or no, but in 3-4 years Siemens could be the best of the bunch!

2. Again, it was not 2 for 2. A precious AVs first was in the equation, which you ignore.


I think if he sees reasonable basis of steady and sustained progress, that will be ok initially. If he sees desperate moves, and they fail, well... what can I say but


... that would make me correct!
The entire premise that you operate on is "Lets gamble known quantities for unknown quantities"

It's the classic Family Guy episode - do you take the boat, or the mystery box that might have a boat. Everyone else took the boat, and you're Peter Griffin in EVERY SINGLE THREAD YOU POST IN.

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08-10-2013, 05:11 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by BPD View Post
The entire premise that you operate on is "Lets gamble known quantities for unknown quantities"

It's the classic Family Guy episode - do you take the boat, or the mystery box that might have a boat. Everyone else took the boat, and you're Peter Griffin in EVERY SINGLE THREAD YOU POST IN.
Family Guy is a great show, btw.

The error with YOUR premise is that

1 You said "The entire premise" (emphasis added), but your subsequent description of my premise is not accurate as to being full, complete, entire, however ya wanna phrase it.

2 As to "Lets gamble known quantities for unknown quantities", the huge flaw with this is not all unknown qualities are equal, and you treat them as if they are.

My deals are often with projected better targets, either by draft selection order or some other ranking.

YES, you are RIGHT.
Siemens COULD fail.
But such a high pick, and the expectation is not that he turns into the second coming of Bobby Orr or Brad Park, but that he is a really solid stay at home, clear the crease, take the body, shutdown D

such a valued asset is NOT LIKELY to fail.

A crapshoot, I agree. Even vets w/a track record can play above or below expectations at any given time in any given year.

But I likes my chances with those odds.

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Old
08-10-2013, 06:07 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Family Guy is a great show, btw.

The error with YOUR premise is that

1 You said "The entire premise" (emphasis added), but your subsequent description of my premise is not accurate as to being full, complete, entire, however ya wanna phrase it.

2 As to "Lets gamble known quantities for unknown quantities", the huge flaw with this is not all unknown qualities are equal, and you treat them as if they are.

My deals are often with projected better targets, either by draft selection order or some other ranking.

YES, you are RIGHT.
Siemens COULD fail.
But such a high pick, and the expectation is not that he turns into the second coming of Bobby Orr or Brad Park, but that he is a really solid stay at home, clear the crease, take the body, shutdown D

such a valued asset is NOT LIKELY to fail.


A crapshoot, I agree. Even vets w/a track record can play above or below expectations at any given time in any given year.

But I likes my chances with those odds.

Siemens was drafted #11 overall. Just like these guys:

Samuel Morin
Filip Forsberg
Jack Campbell
Ryan Ellis
Kyle Beach
Brandon Sutter
Jon Bernier
Anze Kopitar
Lauri Tukonen
Jeff Carter
Keith Ballard
Fast Freddie Sjostrom
Pavel Vorobiev
Oleg Sapryken
Jeff Heerema
Jason Ward
Dan Focht
Jarome Iginla
Jeff Friesen
Brenden Witt


That's 20 years worth of 11th overalls. Out of those 20 guys, there are TWO I would rather have over either of Girardi or Del Zotto. One more is debatable. The other 17 are laughable. Being selected 11th overall does not make a guy likely to be something special. Frankly, based on the last 20 years, it gives him a 10 percent chance of doing that, and those aren't good odds.

I swear, Bern, someone needs to make a drinking game out of your posting habits. With a Coke for Pepsi chaser.

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08-10-2013, 07:01 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Family Guy is a great show, btw.

The error with YOUR premise is that

1 You said "The entire premise" (emphasis added), but your subsequent description of my premise is not accurate as to being full, complete, entire, however ya wanna phrase it.

2 As to "Lets gamble known quantities for unknown quantities", the huge flaw with this is not all unknown qualities are equal, and you treat them as if they are.

My deals are often with projected better targets, either by draft selection order or some other ranking.

YES, you are RIGHT.
Siemens COULD fail.
But such a high pick, and the expectation is not that he turns into the second coming of Bobby Orr or Brad Park, but that he is a really solid stay at home, clear the crease, take the body, shutdown D

such a valued asset is NOT LIKELY to fail.

A crapshoot, I agree. Even vets w/a track record can play above or below expectations at any given time in any given year.

But I likes my chances with those odds.
Right, Siemens could fail, and Girardi and DZ don't fail. Do you see the difference there? We're dealing with known pieces. We know that Girardi is an all-star caliber defender. We know that Del Zotto is a talented young defender. We know NOTHING about Duncan Siemens aside from that his name sounds like Dunk In Semen.

It's not a crapshoot, it's a proven quantity for an unknown quantity. It's only a crapshoot in your head because you've got an endless case of "shiny new toy" syndrome.

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08-10-2013, 07:35 PM
  #75
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Disagree.
If we get a guy like Siemens right after he's been drafted, then he's not available 2-3 years.
If we get a guy like Siemens now, he probably makes the club at some point this year.

More importantly, Hank will see not only getting younger and less banged up, but increased options as to salary cap, and the first, which you graciously ignored mentioning.
Get off NHL13 eh. No team would trade proven players like Girardi and MDZ for Siemens, Barrie and a 1st, especially teams like the Rangers who are in win-now mode. If the Avs received those 2 players, that pick won't even be a good one, sure as hell would be outside of the top 15, I'd say.

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