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U-20 Tournament (Several Hab Prospects Involved)

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Old
08-09-2013, 08:30 PM
  #326
Tyson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Well - hopefully he'll have sharper turns.

I don't think anyone is proclaiming Crisp to be a star Ohashi - but I wouldn't dismiss him because he was not on scouting agency's radars.

Why don't we wait until he's played this season before getting worked up one way or the other - he's obviously a project, but one with intangibles the club feels it needs. I don't think many can argue that the organization needs some size and grit.
Timmins sees a project who only played a few games in his draft year.
Last season he fought 9 times, has excellent size and scored 22 goals. A very intriguing prospect.

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08-09-2013, 08:57 PM
  #327
dackelljuneaubulis02
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Originally Posted by Tyson View Post
Timmins sees a project who only played a few games in his draft year.
Last season he fought 9 times, has excellent size and scored 22 goals. A very intriguing prospect.
With our picks preceding him who seem relatively safe, (Lehkonen aside?) I'm totally fine with this pick. Seems to have the heart which is always a big x factor. If all three of him Mac and DLR make it then our size/grit factor looks real good down the line.

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08-09-2013, 09:08 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Go ahead, speak your mind, and get overly excited about prospects with extremely marginal pro potential if you like. Free country.
Go ahead and share your pessimistic and grossly uninformed opinion about a player that you have never seen. Free country.

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08-09-2013, 09:14 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Go ahead and share your pessimistic and grossly uninformed opinion about a player that you have never seen. Free country.
It's never fun when cynicism is the default setting for 'wisdom'.

It might be good in life but it sucks for hockey boards.

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08-09-2013, 09:46 PM
  #330
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We had 7 projects, 4 from the last draft, in this tournament which is a rubber stamp on their development curve. One is injured and it seems it won't slow him down, another is going home but it doesn't seriously change his chances at the NHL. Looks good to me.

We also have a long shot who isn't here but might bring great rewards: live life to the full, beat the odds, bet on a long shot. You will probably be right going with the odds, but what's the fun?

De la Rose, Colberg, McCarron, Vail, Lehkonen, Hudon, Fucale, my chips are down in this tournament and so far I had good rewards but no sure thing: if I am going for broke in september, why not on Crisp?

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08-09-2013, 09:51 PM
  #331
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The bar for Crisp is set extremely low.

Fourth line NHL player in Montreal is all the expectations placed on him.

Looking at some of our 4th liners that we have seen in Montreal over the last several years, this goal is entirely reachable.

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08-09-2013, 09:54 PM
  #332
dackelljuneaubulis02
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The bar for Crisp is set extremely low.

Fourth line NHL player in Montreal is all the expectations placed on him.

Looking at some of our 4th liners that we have seen in Montreal over the last several years, this goal is entirely reachable.
Exactly, he could be a fantastic 4th liner at (almost) worst which is just fine for a 3rd rounder. And a team's 5th pick.

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08-09-2013, 09:55 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by dackelljuneaubulis02 View Post
With our picks preceding him who seem relatively safe, (Lehkonen aside?) I'm totally fine with this pick. Seems to have the heart which is always a big x factor. If all three of him Mac and DLR make it then our size/grit factor looks real good down the line.
Depends of your definition of a safe pick but Lehkonen is easily our best pick in this draft along with Fucale.

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08-09-2013, 10:05 PM
  #334
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From a non scoot mouth(me), Crisp seem like an interesting prospect.
Nothing to hate about his grit, size and willingness. Just from a few you tube video, skating looks good. You never really know at that point in the draft. He's not gem potential by all means, still a very intriguing prospect.
Overall:3rd or 4th liner.
Prediction to reach that level?4years at max. If he doesn't, more likely he's be a AHLer or a car salesman.

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08-09-2013, 10:14 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Well - hopefully he'll have sharper turns.

I don't think anyone is proclaiming Crisp to be a star Ohashi - but I wouldn't dismiss him because he was not on scouting agency's radars.

Why don't we wait until he's played this season before getting worked up one way or the other - he's obviously a project, but one with intangibles the club feels it needs. I don't think many can argue that the organization needs some size and grit.
Call it "dismissing him", but I say penciling him into an NHL bottom 6 at this point exceeds the definition of optimism, and I'm not going to accept 20 goals in junior and some fights as sufficient reason to get THAT excited about him already, that's all.

Certainly not enough to get all these complaints from the high school cheerleaders that my pom-poms aren't big enough and that I haven't had enough kool-aid, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Go ahead and share your pessimistic and grossly uninformed opinion about a player that you have never seen. Free country.
Hate to point this out to the captain of the cheerleading squad, but this board voting Crisp as high as 24th on the prospect list is all the back story needed to put my "pessimism" vs the prevailing "optimism" into perspective, imo. The words I'm reading now are exactly the same as what we read when people were optimistically justifying Schultz's value addition to the Halak trade.

But you should really check the attitude at the door with the whole pessimism thing. I was one of the few who saw the positive in the addition of Blunden at the time we acquired him, for example, and I shared more than enough optimism with regards to Fournier, to name another long shot bottom 6'er addition to the mix. I only really jumped in on this when his goals in junior, some fights, and skating relative to a poster were tossed in as support for optimism in this case, which has to be seen as ridiculous in any light.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 08-09-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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08-09-2013, 10:30 PM
  #336
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Lehkonen's ability to tip pucks and amazing release really impressing me. Hopefully at least one of Collberg/Lehkonen reach their top 6 sniper upside to play on Galchenyuk's wing long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Call it "dismissing him", but I say penciling him into an NHL bottom 6 at this point exceeds the definition of optimism, and I'm not going to accept 20 goals in junior and some fights as sufficient reason to get THAT excited about him already, that's all.

Certainly not enough to get all these complaints from the high school cheerleaders that my pom-poms aren't big enough and that I haven't had enough kool-aid, lol.



Hate to point this out to the captain of the cheerleading squad, but this board voting Crisp as high as 24th on the prospect list is all the back story needed to put my "pessimism" vs the prevailing "optimism" into perspective, imo. The words I'm reading now are exactly the same as what we read when people were optimistically justifying Schultz's value addition to the Halak trade.

But you should really check the attitude at the door with the whole pessimism thing. I was one of the few who saw the positive in the addition of Blunden at the time we acquired him, for example, and I shared more than enough optimism with regards to Fournier, to name another long shot bottom 6'er addition to the mix. I only really jumped in on this when his goals in junior, some fights, and skating relative to a poster were tossed in as support for optimism in this case, which has to be seen as ridiculous in any light.
I wasn't a fan of the pick but I wouldn't have minded it if he was taken in the 6th/7th rounds instead of high 3rd.

In terms of optimism, the way I see it, the risk attached to him reaching his 'upside' isn't really that different than the risks from a more sexy boom/bust type pick panning out. For every Avtsin there's a Schultz. The value of each player's upside, top 6 high skill forward vs bottom 6 high grit/fighting forward with enough skill to be relevant hockey wise, can be argued but the point is more the similar risk attached. It's pretty common for guys like Moen to fetch decent returns in trades as his types are useful come playoffs. Could Crisp become that 6'4'' 3rd liner with high grit/fighting willingness to go along with being defensively sound + offensive touch? If he does, his value would easily exceed a 3rd rounder.

As someone who is pessimistic about the pick, that is how I rationalized it to see what happens next season.


Last edited by Watsatheo: 08-09-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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Old
08-09-2013, 10:41 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hate to point this out to the captain of the cheerleading squad, but this board voting Crisp as high as 24th on the prospect list is all the back story needed to put my "pessimism" vs the prevailing "optimism" into perspective, imo. The words I'm reading now are exactly the same as what we read when people were optimistically justifying Schultz's value addition to the Halak trade.

But you should really check the attitude at the door with the whole pessimism thing. I was one of the few who saw the positive in the addition of Blunden at the time we acquired him, for example, and I shared more than enough optimism with regards to Fournier, to name another long shot bottom 6'er addition to the mix. I only really jumped in on this when his goals in junior, some fights, and skating relative to a poster were tossed in as support for optimism in this case, which has to be seen as ridiculous in any light.
I don't recall people being unhappy with the acquisition of Blunden...
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...937&highlight=

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Old
08-09-2013, 10:43 PM
  #338
Estimated_Prophet
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It is difficult to rationalize how anyone can't be positively intrigued by this pick. Timmins is among the best in the business and it is very likely that he had Crisp rated as a late second round pick.

He seems to have a good hockey IQ along with decent hands, great size and a strong work ethic. The only question is really about his skating and I am sure from the close look that Timmins and company obviously took at him, they believe this deficiency to be very correctable.

This is not a late round flyer taken by Timmins, as Crisp is clearly a player that Timmins liked alot. Considering that Timmins is far more knowledgeable than any of us on the topic, anyone who outright bashes the pick is only painting themselves as a fool. It is certainly ok to question the timing of the pick as he isn't infallible but let's exercise some common sense here and not come off like a bunch of geeks arguing over comic book heroes and childish fantasy scenarios.

For those of you who don't know......draft rankings mean didley squat to real scouts. At best it is an easy way to set an initial checklist of players to take a look at. At the end of the day each team makes their rankings completely independent of organizations that are primarily comprised of scouts who aren't good enough to be employed in the NHL. When these organizations don't have Crisp rated at all and Trevor Timmins who is infinitely superior to anyone involved in these rankings takes him early in the 3rd round......it should tell you all that you need to know about draft rankings from this point forward.

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08-09-2013, 10:59 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'm not going to accept 20 goals in junior and some fights as sufficient reason to get THAT excited about him already, that's all.

Certainly not enough to get all these complaints from the high school cheerleaders that my pom-poms aren't big enough and that I haven't had enough kool-aid, lol.
If you haven't been paying attention.....I am the #1 basher of Fanboys on this site and have the infractions to back it up.

The truth is that it is that posters from both extremes of the spectrum are equally irritating. If you think that Timmins looked at Crisps stats and said "hmmm 20 goals and some fights.....let's draft him in the 3rd round" then you are out to lunch and your opinion isn't remotely valid on the topic.

You conveniently dismiss the fact that he missed an entire season and has displayed an impressive understanding of the game in all 3 zones along with his hard work and dedication off of the ice. But hey....if you acknowledged those facts then it wouldn't support your flimsy argument against drafting Crisp where we did.

Bergevin's and Timmin's decisions are free for everyone to debate but if you are going to do so then at least deal with all of the facts instead of cherry picking the ones that are only supportive of your opinion. I love a good debate but abhor having to machete my way through personal bias and agendas.

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08-09-2013, 11:05 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
It is difficult to rationalize how anyone can't be positively intrigued by this pick. Timmins is among the best in the business and it is very likely that he had Crisp rated as a late second round pick.

He seems to have a good hockey IQ along with decent hands, great size and a strong work ethic. The only question is really about his skating and I am sure from the close look that Timmins and company obviously took at him, they believe this deficiency to be very correctable.

This is not a late round flyer taken by Timmins, as Crisp is clearly a player that Timmins liked alot. Considering that Timmins is far more knowledgeable than any of us on the topic, anyone who outright bashes the pick is only painting themselves as a fool. It is certainly ok to question the timing of the pick as he isn't infallible but let's exercise some common sense here and not come off like a bunch of geeks arguing over comic book heroes and childish fantasy scenarios.

For those of you who don't know......draft rankings mean didley squat to real scouts. At best it is an easy way to set an initial checklist of players to take a look at. At the end of the day each team makes their rankings completely independent of organizations that are primarily comprised of scouts who aren't good enough to be employed in the NHL. When these organizations don't have Crisp rated at all and Trevor Timmins who is infinitely superior to anyone involved in these rankings takes him early in the 3rd round......it should tell you all that you need to know about draft rankings from this point forward.

Timmins was also very high on David Fisher... Where those who questioned that pick also "fools"?

--> as someone who is a big fan of Timmins, I pretty much always give him the benefit of the doubt.
--> I like what I've read about crisp, sounds like the kind of reach our prospect pool/profile needed .
--> it's beyond stupid to argue in favor of a move based on the grounds that "they are smarter/more knowledgable about hockey than you thus must be right"... If that's how you feel, why bother posting at all? Do you also believe everything the government does is right because, well, they are in charge and we're not?

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08-09-2013, 11:22 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Timmins was also very high on David Fisher... Where those who questioned that pick also "fools"?

--> as someone who is a big fan of Timmins, I pretty much always give him the benefit of the doubt.
--> I like what I've read about crisp, sounds like the kind of reach our prospect pool/profile needed .
--> it's beyond stupid to argue in favor of a move based on the grounds that "they are smarter/more knowledgable about hockey than you thus must be right"... If that's how you feel, why bother posting at all? Do you also believe everything the government does is right because, well, they are in charge and we're not?
Enough of the Fischer nonsense....it has been shown over and over again that he was not Timmins' guy and since then Timmins has taken a lot more control over the draft.

I clearly stated that it is ok to question Timmins but you have to bring more to the table then reciting a couple of stats to have a credible opinion on the topic.

How can you possibly make the comparison between the government and Timmins when it is a fact that many of us on this board are both more intelligent and/or more qualified than many high ranking government officials. That being said it would be foolish to question a government official without any significant and pertinent information on the topic at hand.....

Trevor Timmins is not infallible as I have previously stated but he has seen each one of these players live many times. He has interviewed them and held private workouts with them. He has broke down their play via videos with other hockey minds like Rick Dudley. When you couple these facts with the fact that he is held in high esteem by his peers how can anyone expect to be considered remotely reasonable by outright dismissing the pick after watching a couple of youtube videos. They can voice concerns or reservations but to write the pick off as a pure and absolute longshot is by all reasonable standards.....foolish.

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08-10-2013, 02:01 AM
  #342
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
If you haven't been paying attention.....I am the #1 basher of Fanboys on this site and have the infractions to back it up.

The truth is that it is that posters from both extremes of the spectrum are equally irritating. If you think that Timmins looked at Crisps stats and said "hmmm 20 goals and some fights.....let's draft him in the 3rd round" then you are out to lunch and your opinion isn't remotely valid on the topic.

You conveniently dismiss the fact that he missed an entire season and has displayed an impressive understanding of the game in all 3 zones along with his hard work and dedication off of the ice. But hey....if you acknowledged those facts then it wouldn't support your flimsy argument against drafting Crisp where we did.

Bergevin's and Timmin's decisions are free for everyone to debate but if you are going to do so then at least deal with all of the facts instead of cherry picking the ones that are only supportive of your opinion. I love a good debate but abhor having to machete my way through personal bias and agendas.
What are you even going on about? I replied to Grant, not Timmins, lol. And how close to Erie do you live, anyway? I'm sensing an Otters superfan. I've had fun catching McDavid games when I could, too.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 08-10-2013 at 02:07 AM.
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08-10-2013, 02:44 AM
  #343
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What are you even going on about? I replied to Grant, not Timmins, lol. And how close to Erie do you live, anyway? I'm sensing an Otters superfan. I've had fun catching McDavid games when I could, too.
Nowhere near Erie.......Just north of Toronto in the heart of enemy territory.

I would defend Grant.....but he didn't draft Crisp. If your issue is with this selection than it would be naturally presumed that your issue must also be with Timmins. Unless of course Grant is the Wizard of Oz controlling everything from behind the curtains.....in which case I would have to reconsider the basis for my rebuttal.

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08-10-2013, 03:53 AM
  #344
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Hearing that Mr. Crisp has stated that Timmins will not regret drafting him, goes a long way in my books. Having a more than truculent past myself, it's been a pleasure to know many men that are true to their word. As it seems Connor's adept at positional play and deflecting the puck at the net already, his skating is improving, this from no less judge of talent than TT. I'm a betting man, imagine... and Mr. Crisp will most certainly give 100% effort to keep his word to a man that has shown faith in his ability. So the lineup starts here, either put up or shut the F... up, thanks for the money all donations are appreciated.

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08-10-2013, 07:37 AM
  #345
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Everyone knows that Timmins drafted Crisp to have someone that can challenge him in the weight room. Chuck Norris wasn't available.

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08-10-2013, 09:36 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Considering that Timmins is far more knowledgeable than any of us on the topic, anyone who outright bashes the pick is only painting themselves as a fool.
Was too lazy to cut & paste b4, but the above comment was the one I found troubling & was responding to.

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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Trevor Timmins is not infallible.
This is why...

Thanks for clearing up ur take, much easier to digest with the added context... Somewhat agree with you, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
They can voice concerns or reservations but to write the pick off as a pure and absolute longshot is by all reasonable standards.....foolish.
Thing is, how do you know that Timmins himself doesn't view Crisp as a pure longshot as far as 3rd round value?

Quite possible he was willing to gamble at that point, go off the board a bit for a guy that fit organizational needs/desires more than selection value. Is that so "foolish" a possibility?

Lots of teams end up going way off the board in the first three rounds for a player they like more than other scouts/teams. While they'll have a wealth of research/excuses to justify their decision, a reach is still a reach.

I don't mind that we reached on Crisp, though I hope Timmins & co. had reliable info to suggest at least one othe team had crisp on their radar that high (otherwise trading down to the 4th, while picking up additional assets would have been the much wiser move).

But I don't think it any more foolish to dislike/dismiss the pick than it is to feel confident he'll ever make the NHL...

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08-10-2013, 10:38 AM
  #347
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Considering everyone is using terms like '3rd round value', I think its important to remember that Scouts aren't necessarily taking players in the order of value, they take players that are a mix of value, and at risk of being taken by another team. Its very possible that players drafted after Crisp may be seen as more valuable to the Habs, but less likely to be drafted by another team. Maybe the team wanted Crisp, and knew that a few other teams would likely grab him in the 3rd/4th, so they used that pick on him. I don't think we should be equating his value simply as '3rd rounder' too strictly.

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08-10-2013, 10:46 AM
  #348
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Alright. Back to the tourney. USA & Canada going at it at 1pm.

Unfortunately, McCarron isn't in the lineup today:
G
Gillies
Stolarz
D
Butcher-Pesce
Skjei-Carrick
Sieloff-Grzelyck
McCoshen-Santini
F
Matteau-O'Regan-Barber
Kerdiles-Shore-Erne
Stepan-Nieves-Samuelsson
DiPauli-Copp-Fasching
Toninato

Sweden & Finland playing a bit later... No word on lineups.

http://worldjuniors.usahockey.com/ne...rrer_id=893640

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08-10-2013, 10:54 AM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Alright. Back to the tourney. USA & Canada going at it at 1pm.

Unfortunately, McCarron isn't in the lineup today:
G
Gillies
Stolarz
D
Butcher-Pesce
Skjei-Carrick
Sieloff-Grzelyck
McCoshen-Santini
F
Matteau-O'Regan-Barber
Kerdiles-Shore-Erne
Stepan-Nieves-Samuelsson
DiPauli-Copp-Fasching
Toninato

Sweden & Finland playing a bit later... No word on lineups.

http://worldjuniors.usahockey.com/ne...rrer_id=893640
Is it on TV somewhere?

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08-10-2013, 10:59 AM
  #350
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Hudon not playing either...

Corey Pronman ‏@coreypronman 1h

CAN scratches today are: Hudon, Mantha, Gaunce, Rychel, Poirier, Jankowski, Rupert Pulock, Koekkoek, Finn. Paterson starting in goal.

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