HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

1990 All star break players choice poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-06-2013, 10:03 AM
  #51
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Not you. But there are people here who have a million excuses for what was the obvious truth; Messier was the third-best center of his era.

And Muckler was saying it in the context of a Canada Cup. I don't think he was too worried about his club team at the time. Remember Pat Quinn sitting Joseph in 2002?

But fine. Here's Ray Bourque on Messier at the 1987 Canada Cup:

"I told him this [while they were Canada Cup teammates], if I'd been a General Manager, and had a new franchise, over anybody he'd probably be the guy I'd pick to start a new franchise with"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+messier&hl=en
Here is one of Wings coach Demers after the Oilers beat the Wings in 87.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+messier&hl=en
Quote:
"They have the greatest player in the world (Gretzky), and the second greatest player in the world(Messier)" Red wings coach Jacques Demers said. "What can you do?"

"Hey, Shawn Burr is 6'1, 180 pounds, but Messier just brushes him off." Demers said. "Gretzky is a finesse player and you can knock him off stride a little, but Messier just overpowers people."

Yzerman said, "Messier just takes that puck and he is simply not worried about people hitting him. He'll go right through them"

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2013, 09:17 PM
  #52
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
While I'm sure we can find quotes placing Messier as the #3 player as early as 1987 and 1988 (third in points-per game in 1987 in addition to having a rather strong playoff and good Canada Cup, leading scorer in the 1988 playoffs going into the Finals, and a hot start against Gretzky in the 1989 playoffs), Muckler has a horse in this race.
pretty much.

Hockey scouting report 1986-87:

Quote:
the best all-around player in the NHL today (and has been for several seasons) and is one of the best players in the world.
Kent Nilsson 1987:

Quote:
"Mark is the best all-around player in the world"
Hockey Scouting Report 1987-88

Quote:
The best two-way player in the game, better than Bryan Trottier in his prime because of superior strength and speed.
Hockey Scouting Report 1989-90

Quote:
there is nothing Mark Messier cannot do when he puts his mind to it. It is his physical skill combined with his mental toughess that make Mark the best all-around player in the world.
Cliff Fletcher, 1990:

Quote:
if I had a choice to add any player from another team to win one game for the Stanley Cup, I'd want Mark Messier.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2013, 10:29 PM
  #53
tombombadil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Kelowna, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,030
vCash: 500
until this thread, i really had no idea that Y had been left off both 87 and 91! Holy crappers.

And there is a belief that Keenan simply disliked him, and, sounds good to me, but for fun, I just looked up his best on best numbers - 1 Canada Cup, one World Cup, 2 Olympics - 11 points in 22 games! Small sample size, but wow, this really shocks me.

tombombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2013, 11:24 PM
  #54
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,924
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
The duh factor applies to much of it, but I found the bolded below interesting:
Fetisov as being over rated isn't a huge surprise.

He was touted as a world class Dman and was in his "rookie season" with his D partner from Russia and didn't have an overly impressive season for a presupposed superstar.

He finished the season a decent 27th in Dman scoring but for an "all time great" it was hardly what was expected and it went downhill from there until a late swan song with the Detroit 5

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 10:39 AM
  #55
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
And there is a belief that Keenan simply disliked him, and, sounds good to me, but for fun, I just looked up his best on best numbers - 1 Canada Cup, one World Cup, 2 Olympics - 11 points in 22 games! Small sample size, but wow, this really shocks me.
Considering he played those games as a 19 year old and as a 30+ year old it doesn't shock me that much.

He was one of Canada's best players in his last appearance in 2002 at the Olympics and that was as a 36 year old on one leg.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 12:22 PM
  #56
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Fetisov as being over rated isn't a huge surprise.

He was touted as a world class Dman and was in his "rookie season" with his D partner from Russia and didn't have an overly impressive season for a presupposed superstar.

He finished the season a decent 27th in Dman scoring but for an "all time great" it was hardly what was expected and it went downhill from there until a late swan song with the Detroit 5
I suppose adjustment to a whole different lifestyle and game change means diddlysquat. Oh, and that "swan song" lasted four years, including the final return from that crash. He was the integral part of the Russian Five.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 02:45 PM
  #57
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
The duh factor applies to much of it, but I found the bolded below interesting:
Doug Wilson definitely had a bomb. That's pretty much the only thing I knew about the guy at the time.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 04:08 PM
  #58
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Doug Wilson definitely had a bomb. That's pretty much the only thing I knew about the guy at the time.
He sure did. I don't know why his name showing up in the poll would surprise anyone in that regard.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 04:35 PM
  #59
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,791
vCash: 500
I think we often allow our final memories of Messier to cloud our judgement of him as a player. Yes, he hit some nice milestones, and he came within a few games of eclipsing the one that many thought was untouchable (Howe's career GP record), but Messier's final seven years saw a dramatic decline. Didn't hit 25 goals in any of the campaigns. Didn't make the playoffs in any of those seasons. He was a Hart finalist in 1995-96, and an impact player in 1996-97. He was reviled for his play in Vancouver, and he couldn't shake the Rangers out of their rut, either.

At his peak, though, he was a total force. His strength was incredible and he's still the blueprint when it comes to power skating. Coffey and Gartner were faster, more agile and more graceful skaters, but Messier was as good of an overall skater as anyone in the game. He dominated the boards, and his faceoff defensive prowess have been underrated as time has gone on. He had that incredible shot, and he made plays. Yes, the survey was taken in 1990, when he won the Hart. (Okay, I would have voted for Bourque). But if you would have asked players five or six years earlier, Messier still would have received a lot of votes as the guy they would start their team with, or one of five guys to build around.

Let's try to remember him for the superior force that he was, and not the shadow of himself that he became.

John Tucker and Dave Brown as the top playmakers? Makes you wonder if there were a few other farce votes in the poll, where one vote would get you into the top 5. Nieuwendyk as a top playmaker? No. Best hands? That might be another story. Best hands in tight? You could have definitely made a case.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 04:53 PM
  #60
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,875
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
John Tucker and Dave Brown as the top playmakers? Makes you wonder if there were a few other farce votes in the poll, where one vote would get you into the top 5. Nieuwendyk as a top playmaker? No. Best hands? That might be another story. Best hands in tight? You could have definitely made a case.
Could players vote for themselves? But anyways, there are always few troll votes no matter the instance. In polls here, presidential votes, player polls, and probably for the Hart Trophy as well from now and then.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 09:12 PM
  #61
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Could players vote for themselves? But anyways, there are always few troll votes no matter the instance. In polls here, presidential votes, player polls, and probably for the Hart Trophy as well from now and then.
The ultimate "troll vote" may have been Brian Sutter getting a first-place vote for the Hart in 1985 over Gretzky's 208 point season (73 point over the league's second highest scorer, his linemate Kurri). Sutter had a few second and third place votes but a first-place vote seems impossible to support.

Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 04:25 AM
  #62
toob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 718
vCash: 500
to add some other sources for the who was considered better talk that year; im ignoring 89 for obv reasons

During the 90 all star game itself the announcers said Bourque, Messier, and Lafontaine were the Hart candidates and later when Yzerman scored off the Coffey turnover said that Yzerman was probably the 3rd best player behind Gretzky and Lemieux. This was up on youtube and and i linked to it previously but the video is now down but you can still watch it on Gamecenter.

THN Yearbook 1991 in the Bourque Hart controversy article said that Yzerman would make another annual bid for the Hart but said that team record made it so he never had a prayer for 90.

Superstar Hockey Yearbook 90-91 said that Yzerman was the 3rd best center and explicitly said behind Gretzky and Lemieux and ahead of Messier. Superstar Hockey Yearbook 91-92 once again said that Yzerman once again was the 3rd best center. Superstar Hockey Collector's edition 1991 with Brett Hull had the feature story on Hull with the tagline that "the NHL has a new star rivalling Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, and Gretzky" and Bobby Hull's interview has him saying that if Brett works hard every second he can be right up there with Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman. As an aside Brett Hull said the same kind of thing way later during Yzerman's jersey retirement that Yzerman was the best player after Gretzky and Lemieux in that era. That same issue of Superstar Hockey ranked the centers and Yzerman was 2nd behind Gretzky; the magazine on the front said It's still Gretzky with Yzerman challenging. Messier was 3rd and Lemeiux was 10th but they said if he wasnt injured he could be 1st. For comparison the previous edition of Superstar Hockey in 1990 with the Lemieux feature had a story on Yzerman being Detroit's challenge to Gretzky and Lemieux and how he was making his move on them as the best player.

Hockey Scouting Report 90-91 said Yzerman could be said to be the best player and that they wouldnt argue strongly against that. For comparison the previous year they said he was the 2nd best player after Gretzky.

toob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 02:53 PM
  #63
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by toob View Post
to add some other sources for the who was considered better talk that year; im ignoring 89 for obv reasons

During the 90 all star game itself the announcers said Bourque, Messier, and Lafontaine were the Hart candidates and later when Yzerman scored off the Coffey turnover said that Yzerman was probably the 3rd best player behind Gretzky and Lemieux. This was up on youtube and and i linked to it previously but the video is now down but you can still watch it on Gamecenter.

THN Yearbook 1991 in the Bourque Hart controversy article said that Yzerman would make another annual bid for the Hart but said that team record made it so he never had a prayer for 90.

Superstar Hockey Yearbook 90-91 said that Yzerman was the 3rd best center and explicitly said behind Gretzky and Lemieux and ahead of Messier. Superstar Hockey Yearbook 91-92 once again said that Yzerman once again was the 3rd best center. Superstar Hockey Collector's edition 1991 with Brett Hull had the feature story on Hull with the tagline that "the NHL has a new star rivalling Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, and Gretzky" and Bobby Hull's interview has him saying that if Brett works hard every second he can be right up there with Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman. As an aside Brett Hull said the same kind of thing way later during Yzerman's jersey retirement that Yzerman was the best player after Gretzky and Lemieux in that era. That same issue of Superstar Hockey ranked the centers and Yzerman was 2nd behind Gretzky; the magazine on the front said It's still Gretzky with Yzerman challenging. Messier was 3rd and Lemeiux was 10th but they said if he wasnt injured he could be 1st. For comparison the previous edition of Superstar Hockey in 1990 with the Lemieux feature had a story on Yzerman being Detroit's challenge to Gretzky and Lemieux and how he was making his move on them as the best player.

Hockey Scouting Report 90-91 said Yzerman could be said to be the best player and that they wouldnt argue strongly against that. For comparison the previous year they said he was the 2nd best player after Gretzky.
Reading through this thread, regardless whether you have Yzerman or Messier 3rd, does anyone besides me wonder how in the holy hell Sakic generally beats Yzerman in polls around here.

I've always been amazed or maybe shocked is the better word, when that happens.
This thread just puts a big exclamation point on it.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 03:16 PM
  #64
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Reading through this thread, regardless whether you have Yzerman or Messier 3rd, does anyone besides me wonder how in the holy hell Sakic generally beats Yzerman in polls around here.

I've always been amazed or maybe shocked is the better word, when that happens.
This thread just puts a big exclamation point on it.
Sakic peaked a lot later and against a weaker crop of opposition.

They are very close imo.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 08-09-2013 at 03:33 PM.
BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 07:55 PM
  #65
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Reading through this thread, regardless whether you have Yzerman or Messier 3rd, does anyone besides me wonder how in the holy hell Sakic generally beats Yzerman in polls around here.

I've always been amazed or maybe shocked is the better word, when that happens.
This thread just puts a big exclamation point on it.
Yzerman Sakic is always a close contest for a very good reason.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 08:45 PM
  #66
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Yzerman Sakic is always a close contest for a very good reason.
I have never seen it that way.

I mean how?
Longevity? Yzerman played over 130 more regular season games and 24 more PO games so that's not it.

Trophies? They both have a Conn, Yzerman has 3 Cup rings, Sakic has 2. Sakic has a Hart/Pearson from '01, Yzerman has a Pearson from '89. Wonder which one of those was harder to win eh
So it's not trophies in any case.

Points? They are almost identical PpG and no one should even think about trying to use adjusted stats here as their careers overlapped for a whopping 17 years!

So what is it then? Peak...don't make me laugh, Stevie's peak blows Joe's right out of the water.

Defensive play? C'mon, as sound defensively as Joe was later in his career, he never reached the level Stevie did in this regard. Throw in Stevie's Faceoff prowess to further tilt the scales.

Like I said, I don't and never will get it.
I watched the entirely of both players careers and it was never anywhere near as close to me as most seem to like to make it around here.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 09:13 PM
  #67
Evincar
Your Final Judgement
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I mean how?
Longevity? Yzerman played over 130 more regular season games and 24 more PO games so that's not it.
Sakic was 6th in scoring at age 37. I think he clearly wins in longevity.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 09:27 PM
  #68
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I have never seen it that way.

I mean how?
Longevity? Yzerman played over 130 more regular season games and 24 more PO games so that's not it.

Trophies? They both have a Conn, Yzerman has 3 Cup rings, Sakic has 2. Sakic has a Hart/Pearson from '01, Yzerman has a Pearson from '89. Wonder which one of those was harder to win eh
So it's not trophies in any case.

Points? They are almost identical PpG and no one should even think about trying to use adjusted stats here as their careers overlapped for a whopping 17 years!

So what is it then? Peak...don't make me laugh, Stevie's peak blows Joe's right out of the water.

Defensive play? C'mon, as sound defensively as Joe was later in his career, he never reached the level Stevie did in this regard. Throw in Stevie's Faceoff prowess to further tilt the scales.

Like I said, I don't and never will get it.
I watched the entirely of both players careers and it was never anywhere near as close to me as most seem to like to make it around here.
We have a dozen threads on the subject and no need to bring it up here.
I watched both players entire career as well and I disagree with you. The fact of the matter is, their resume is quite similar and very close.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 09:44 PM
  #69
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
We have a dozen threads on the subject and no need to bring it up here.
I watched both players entire career as well and I disagree with you. The fact of the matter is, their resume is quite similar and very close.
Except that Stevie played more games and had a higher peak. Besides that you mean

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 10:01 PM
  #70
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Except that Stevie played more games and had a higher peak. Besides that you mean
If you say so I consider their peak year very close. Yzerman's 155 point year vs Sakic's Hart year.

Sakic's Hart year was mighty impressive. 118 points in a year where Him and Jagr were the only two who could break the 96 point barrier. Runner up for the Selke(Almost won) etc

Was a strong contender for the Smythe that year too.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2013, 12:08 AM
  #71
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
If you say so I consider their peak year very close. Yzerman's 155 point year vs Sakic's Hart year.

Sakic's Hart year was mighty impressive. 118 points in a year where Him and Jagr were the only two who could break the 96 point barrier. Runner up for the Selke(Almost won) etc

Was a strong contender for the Smythe that year too.

Very close?
I guess nevermind the team around them when each did that eh?

Close my ass!

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2013, 10:02 AM
  #72
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Very close?
I guess nevermind the team around them when each did that eh?

Close my ass!
Yup. Having lesser players around enabled Yzerman to log tons of icetime, and they let him loose offensively, and as Devellano said, did not make him play a 200 foot game, because they relied on him to score.
Much like Messier scoring more after Gretzky left.

Yzerman himself said he scored less after he had more help because he was not relied on as much to score.

In any case, if you really want to revive this, it can be done in one of these threads....
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1345091
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=966017
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=952639
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=719313
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=583598
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=665051
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=495860

but I really would rather not since it would just be the same old argument. The guys were close IMO, and nothing anyone says will make me think one was far ahead of the other after seeing them both their entire career.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-10-2013 at 10:18 AM.
Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.