HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2013 Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Charlie Manuel has been fired (Aug. 16)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-13-2013, 08:11 AM
  #901
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Asche has definitely been impressing me. May not be hitting the best, which comes with time, but his defense is pretty damn nice.
Asche will be hard to gauge, the kid is a brutal starter at each league he's been in. This is probably the fastest start he's gotten at any level and its at the pro level.

But yes, his glove has been tremendous so far, kind of hilarious that for a decade 3rd base was a black hole. No they have Asche & Franco. One will be a stud almost for sure, the other might be a solid every day starter.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 08:30 AM
  #902
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,483
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Asche will be hard to gauge, the kid is a brutal starter at each league he's been in. This is probably the fastest start he's gotten at any level and its at the pro level.

But yes, his glove has been tremendous so far, kind of hilarious that for a decade 3rd base was a black hole. No they have Asche & Franco. One will be a stud almost for sure, the other might be a solid every day starter.
I don't know that I would call 3B a black hole for the Phillies for the last decade. David Bell and Placido Polanco had some solid years. It wasn't a source of pride or power for the Phills, but Polanco was even an all-star one year.

DrinkFightFlyers is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 08:38 AM
  #903
jml87
Registered User
 
jml87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,912
vCash: 500
Asche has a really nice quick swing like Utley's. I would think he'd at the very least be a decent hitter with that.

jml87 is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 09:24 AM
  #904
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't know that I would call 3B a black hole for the Phillies for the last decade. David Bell and Placido Polanco had some solid years. It wasn't a source of pride or power for the Phills, but Polanco was even an all-star one year.
Most years were average or below average by everybody since Rolen left. 3rd base is a power position and the Phillies had nobody with power.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 09:26 AM
  #905
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Dietch proposed a scenario:

Biddle/Brown/Asche for Stanton

Before you say no, remember Asche will have to move positions, Franco is the future 3rd baseman.

Ruf is now going to be an OFer. Stanton will basically be replacing Brown (RH and more powerful).

Biddle will be the main casualty.

Think about this for next year:

Revere
Utley
Stanton
Howard
Ruf
Franco
Rollins
Catcher (don't know)

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 10:03 AM
  #906
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,483
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Most years were average or below average by everybody since Rolen left. 3rd base is a power position and the Phillies had nobody with power.
The power thing is true, but Bell and Polanco were still solid 3Bs. A couple good years, a couple average years, and a couple bad years. Feliz and Abraham Nunez I think played the bulk of the remaining time. Those years were pretty much all bad. But again, I'm not saying it was a great position, but its not like they had absolutely no one there over the last decade. They just had no superstars (though I will point out again that at least Polanco had one AS season).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Dietch proposed a scenario:

Biddle/Brown/Asche for Stanton

Before you say no, remember Asche will have to move positions, Franco is the future 3rd baseman.

Ruf is now going to be an OFer. Stanton will basically be replacing Brown (RH and more powerful).

Biddle will be the main casualty.

Think about this for next year:

Revere
Utley
Stanton
Howard
Ruf
Franco
Rollins
Catcher (don't know)
I'd probably do that, but I would try to get around giving up Brown.

DrinkFightFlyers is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 10:27 AM
  #907
856
Moderator
Amaro out
 
856's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 34,775
vCash: 230
The Marlins arent trading Stanton while he is still very cheap and there are so many more teams that would offer more than the Phillies.

856 is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 11:10 AM
  #908
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justified View Post
The Marlins arent trading Stanton while he is still very cheap and there are so many more teams that would offer more than the Phillies.
He's Arb eligible next year, so his price is just going to sky rocket from here. I don't think they will trade him this year either. But next, he might be on the block.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 12:08 PM
  #909
FLYguy3911
Registered User
 
FLYguy3911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 9,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Dietch proposed a scenario:

Biddle/Brown/Asche for Stanton

Before you say no, remember Asche will have to move positions, Franco is the future 3rd baseman.

Ruf is now going to be an OFer. Stanton will basically be replacing Brown (RH and more powerful).

Biddle will be the main casualty.

Think about this for next year:

Revere
Utley
Stanton
Howard
Ruf
Franco
Rollins
Catcher (don't know)
The only one saying no to that is the Marlins.

FLYguy3911 is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 12:23 PM
  #910
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
The only one saying no to that is the Marlins.
Most likely, but it seems many people on twitter apparently didn't like that offer for Stanton (according to Dietch)

BTW, Stanton isn't perfect. I think people need to calm down on what it would cost for him.

Basically giving 3 major league (or close) players under 25 to the Marlins, a Corner OF w/ power, a possible every day 3rd baseman w/ pop and a potential #2 starter behind Fernandez?

That's not a joke of a package.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 12:46 PM
  #911
Ilya Bryzastor
Registered User
 
Ilya Bryzastor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 254
vCash: 500
I hate how everybody thinks a 3rd basemen needs power , I would rather have a .300 hitter who can steal 30 bags and score some runs and a good fielder, instead of a 25/30 Homerun guy who will drive in 60 or 70 , with a .240 batting average.

Ilya Bryzastor is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 12:48 PM
  #912
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Bryzastor View Post
I hate how everybody thinks a 3rd basemen needs power , I would rather have a .300 hitter who can steal 30 bags and score some runs and a good fielder, instead of a 25/30 Homerun guy who will drive in 60 or 70 , with a .240 batting average.
That's typically what a 3rd baseman does though. That's a power position, like corner OF & 1st base are power positions.

Historically saying, that's basically where these generalizations come from.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #913
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justified View Post
The Marlins arent trading Stanton while he is still very cheap and there are so many more teams that would offer more than the Phillies.
Domonic Brown is a 25 year old ALL STAR LF who isn't even arbitration eligible until 2015. Just him alone would be tough to top. But when you throw in a young major league ready 3b and a starting pitcher projected to be a #2 or #3 starter in the majors who should be ready by 2015. I'd love to see someone offer more than that.

Snotbubbles is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 02:03 PM
  #914
856
Moderator
Amaro out
 
856's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 34,775
vCash: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Domonic Brown is a 25 year old ALL STAR LF who isn't even arbitration eligible until 2015. Just him alone would be tough to top. But when you throw in a young major league ready 3b and a starting pitcher projected to be a #2 or #3 starter in the majors who should be ready by 2015. I'd love to see someone offer more than that.
Texas
Pittsburgh
Boston

These three teams would all offer more. In fact, the Pirates even made an offer that got the Marlins attention at the deadline but Loria isnt going trade him right now.

856 is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 02:11 PM
  #915
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 6,038
vCash: 500
I love that people hate Ruben because of how many times hes tried to sell the farm for a big acquisition, but they want to turn around and do the same thing for a guy who is currently hitting .238. Don't get me wrong I like Stanton, but aggressive moves like that are the exact reason the phils are where they are right now.

McNasty is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 02:21 PM
  #916
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justified View Post
Texas
Pittsburgh
Boston

These three teams would all offer more. In fact, the Pirates even made an offer that got the Marlins attention at the deadline but Loria isnt going trade him right now.
The Pirates offered Gerrit Cole, Starling Marte and Jameson Taillon.

Marte and Taillon are essentially equivalent to Asche and Biddle.

So the question is does Gerrit Cole hold more value than Dom Brown?

Snotbubbles is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 02:49 PM
  #917
856
Moderator
Amaro out
 
856's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 34,775
vCash: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
The Pirates offered Gerrit Cole, Starling Marte and Jameson Taillon.

Marte and Taillon are essentially equivalent to Asche and Biddle.

So the question is does Gerrit Cole hold more value than Dom Brown?
Tallion and Marte do not equal Biddle and Asche. Biddle's projected ceiling is a #3 while Tallion's is a #2 and Starling Martin has been great this year and already has a fWAR of 4.0. He is also very good defensively. Id be surprised if Asche ever is a 4.0 fWAR player.

So to answer your question does Cole hold more value than Dom Brown, I feel it is irrelevant in this situation as Marte/Tallion >>> Biddle/Asche.

856 is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 02:52 PM
  #918
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
I love that people hate Ruben because of how many times hes tried to sell the farm for a big acquisition, but they want to turn around and do the same thing for a guy who is currently hitting .238. Don't get me wrong I like Stanton, but aggressive moves like that are the exact reason the phils are where they are right now.
Asche is bumped because of Franco

Stanton would offset Brown

Biddle would really only be the additional piece.

Again, its all just talk in which the writer wanted to gauge people's interest.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #919
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justified View Post
Tallion and Marte do not equal Biddle and Asche. Biddle's projected ceiling is a #3 while Tallion's is a #2 and Starling Martin has been great this year and already has a fWAR of 4.0. He is also very good defensively. Id be surprised if Asche ever is a 4.0 fWAR player.

So to answer your question does Cole hold more value than Dom Brown, I feel it is irrelevant in this situation as Marte/Tallion >>> Biddle/Asche.
So your entire Marte vs Asche argument is that he has a fWAR of 4.0?

His REAL #'s are pretty mediocre right now. Maybe he gets better, but an OPS of .780 is meh. His SO rate is gross too. He K's 25% of the time. Nobody really knows what Asche is right now. But I don't see Marte being much more than an ok OFer

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 03:07 PM
  #920
856
Moderator
Amaro out
 
856's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 34,775
vCash: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
So your entire Marte vs Asche argument is that he has a fWAR of 4.0?

His REAL #'s are pretty mediocre right now. Maybe he gets better, but an OPS of .780 is meh. His SO rate is gross too. He K's 25% of the time. Nobody really knows what Asche is right now. But I don't see Marte being much more than an ok OFer
No, my argument is not based entirely on WAR. He is a pretty good top of the order batter with a split of .282/.343/.438. He is also is a good baserunner and steals alot of bases. His defense is also very good. As you said he does strikeout nearly 25% of the time and he only walks 5%. But to me he is a quality starting LF who can also play CF.

We dont know what Asche is, but Marte has shown he can be a quality OF imo. We dont know yet if Asche can be a quality 3b or some other position. My point is that imo the deal that Pirates offered for Stanton is more than anything the Phillies can.

856 is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 03:59 PM
  #921
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 7,606
vCash: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
The Pirates offered Gerrit Cole, Starling Marte and Jameson Taillon.

Marte and Taillon are essentially equivalent to Asche and Biddle.

So the question is does Gerrit Cole hold more value than Dom Brown?
That Pirates offer is significantly stronger than anything the Phillies can offer.

sobrien is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 04:19 PM
  #922
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
 
LegionOfDoom91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 20,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The power thing is true, but Bell and Polanco were still solid 3Bs. A couple good years, a couple average years, and a couple bad years. Feliz and Abraham Nunez I think played the bulk of the remaining time. Those years were pretty much all bad. But again, I'm not saying it was a great position, but its not like they had absolutely no one there over the last decade. They just had no superstars (though I will point out again that at least Polanco had one AS season).
He wasn't too bad in 2009.

LegionOfDoom91 is online now  
Old
08-13-2013, 06:56 PM
  #923
FLYguy3911
Registered User
 
FLYguy3911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 9,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Bryzastor View Post
I hate how everybody thinks a 3rd basemen needs power , I would rather have a .300 hitter who can steal 30 bags and score some runs and a good fielder, instead of a 25/30 Homerun guy who will drive in 60 or 70 , with a .240 batting average.
A third baseman doesn't need to be a power hitter if you have guys in the middle of the diamond who can 'out-slug' their profile. Three years ago when the Phillies had Utley, Rollins, Victorino, and Ruiz in their prime, it didn't matter that Polanco was the third baseman because those guys would more than make up for his lack of power.

What third baseman is stealing 30 bags? It certainly isn't Asche. David Wright is the only third baseman in the league with double digit steals. I don't see Asche being a .300 hitter either. I actually think he'll have decent pop. He's got a nice swing and quick hands. He's similar to Kyle Seager of Seattle. Seager never hit more than 14 HR's in a minor league season. His first full season in the bigs last year he hits 20 while playing half his games at Safeco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Domonic Brown is a 25 year old ALL STAR LF who isn't even arbitration eligible until 2015. Just him alone would be tough to top. But when you throw in a young major league ready 3b and a starting pitcher projected to be a #2 or #3 starter in the majors who should be ready by 2015. I'd love to see someone offer more than that.
It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself its a fair deal. It's really not. The Phillies aren't even giving up their best position prospect in the deal. To give the deal a little perspective, Stanton is just 7 months older than Cody Asche and has shown to be one of the best players in the game. Even if you argue he's having such a "terrible" year (300 plate appearances isn't a great sample size for a player of his caliber), he sports a 123 wRC+ hitting in the middle of a AA lineup (100 is MLB average), his walk rate is up over 5% from last year, while lowering his K-rate. Not to mention he's a pretty good fielder. And he's right handed. There are only two players in the game with more value than him- Trout and Harper.

FLYguy3911 is offline  
Old
08-13-2013, 07:22 PM
  #924
jml87
Registered User
 
jml87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,912
vCash: 500
I don't see the point of getting Stanton. Sure he'd be great but his ceiling is only a couple floors above Brown. It's not that much of a jump and one player will not save this lineup. We need a whole new slew of guys to fix this mess. Plus, Stanton has been having some serious issues with injuries. Not saying that he's not worth that, they could probably get more for Stanton, but he's not really what the team needs.

I still think the best thing for this team would be to trade Lee and grab a really great hitting prospect. What always stuns me is that so many of our pitchers have great stuff, top of the rotation stuff, but no one can ever seem to put it together and throw with control. Again, it's a major organization issue for me.

jml87 is offline  
Old
08-14-2013, 11:40 AM
  #925
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 6,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
I still think the best thing for this team would be to trade Lee and grab a really great hitting prospect. What always stuns me is that so many of our pitchers have great stuff, top of the rotation stuff, but no one can ever seem to put it together and throw with control. Again, it's a major organization issue for me.
I'm not saying they couldn't do a better job, but I mean the Phillies aren't the only team who goes through this. There are tons of guys every year who have really good stuff and for one reason or another just never figure it out.

McNasty is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.