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Old
08-12-2013, 11:15 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Sather of course is wily enough not to speak ill of his b-o-s-s who had him doing pretty much the same **** as he had Neil Smith doing before he fired him. This is not to say Smith doesn't have a % share of why the Rangers hit the skids but Sather really didn't start rebuilding the team until he was forced to by circumstance and a major circumstance was the salary cap. No longer was it possible anymore for Mr. Dolan to dream of buying a championship.

IMO if there is anyone who is pretty much blameless and does not get enough credit for the Rangers becoming a pretty good team again it's Tom Renney. The guy worked hard--did whatever the team asked him to do and almost always did it well and without blowing his own horn or pissing off the media (like Torts) for no good reason.
Agreed about Renney, but not for nothing, the plan for the Rangers in the 2004-05 season was to be very, very bad. And that decision was made during the 03-04 season. Many of the players that made 05-06 so special wouldn't have been there. No Straka, no Sykora, no Rucinsky, no Rucchin, no Rozsival, no Malik. Most of these guys wouldn't have been free agents in the lockout year or, in Rucchin and Sykora's case, they might not have been traded. Also, we probably wouldn't have had Lundqvist yet. It was supposed to be a true rebuild year.

Maybe the timing was auspicious with the advent of the salary cap anyway, but the rebuild decision was made before a salary cap was in place.

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08-12-2013, 11:19 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Agreed about Renney, but not for nothing, the plan for the Rangers in the 2004-05 season was to be very, very bad. And that decision was made during the 03-04 season. Many of the players that made 05-06 so special wouldn't have been there. No Straka, no Sykora, no Rucinsky, no Rucchin, no Rozsival, no Malik. Most of these guys wouldn't have been free agents in the lockout year or, in Rucchin and Sykora's case, they might not have been traded. Also, we probably wouldn't have had Lundqvist yet. It was supposed to be a true rebuild year.
Then why acquire and hold onto Jagr?

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08-12-2013, 11:24 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Then why acquire and hold onto Jagr?
Why did the Thrashers keep Kovalchuk when the team was absolutely awful? Or going back further, why did the Senators keep Yashin for as long as they did? You still need to have someone who will bring people into the arena, even if you're rebuilding.

Also, I'm not sure Sather liked the optics of acquiring Jagr after so much drama and then trading him so quickly afterwards. I don't think Sather really planned on 05-06 going so well either. Guys like Straka and Rucinsky were brought in specifically to make Jagr more comfortable through what we all thought would be a very bumpy ride.

The Czech chemistry, plus Nylander, and the emergence of Lundqvist changed all of that. I also really think there's a pretty direct correlation between the overachievement of that season and the Gomez and Drury signings.

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08-12-2013, 11:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Sather went on the station in Edmonton to discuss the 25th anniversary of the Gretzky trade. When was the last time he was Edmonton radio? Or any radio station? The NY radio guys have no clue about the Rangers.
I'm not sure how often he's on the radio in Edmonton, but every once in a while you do hear he was on the radio there...and nobody knows how often he's on the radio there that we do not hear about...perhaps often, perhaps not so often.

But either way Sather should not limit his radio presence to Edmonton only...I'm the 'hockey smarts' of radio people here in New York...GM's from other sports put up with questions from radio people who are not geniuses...Sather can do it too.

Even once would be nice.

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08-12-2013, 11:50 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Why did the Thrashers keep Kovalchuk when the team was absolutely awful? Or going back further, why did the Senators keep Yashin for as long as they did? You still need to have someone who will bring people into the arena, even if you're rebuilding.

Also, I'm not sure Sather liked the optics of acquiring Jagr after so much drama and then trading him so quickly afterwards. I don't think Sather really planned on 05-06 going so well either. Guys like Straka and Rucinsky were brought in specifically to make Jagr more comfortable through what we all thought would be a very bumpy ride.

The Czech chemistry, plus Nylander, and the emergence of Lundqvist changed all of that. I also really think there's a pretty direct correlation between the overachievement of that season and the Gomez and Drury signings.
For me, a "true rebuild" is starting from scratch and being prepared to take your lumps. Retaining Jagr was a hedge -- just another example of not being able to fully commit to a direction.

I agree with everything else you said - as soon as Sather felt some sort of semblance of success, he proceeded to make some of the worst free agent signings in the history of the game. Some rebuild.

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08-12-2013, 11:51 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
That's not really Sather's MO though. Going back to 2000 the only trades Sather made that meets this description was Nash for Dubinsky/Anisimov+ and maybe Lindros for Hlavac/Johnsson+.

Sather didn't give up anything of value (at the time or in retrospect) for Bure, Jagr. He gave up some value for Dunham but he had really no choice at the time.
Didn't we give up a 1st round pick for a very injured, past his prime Bure?

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08-12-2013, 12:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by bubba5 View Post
Didn't we give up a 1st round pick for a very injured, past his prime Bure?
Yes (which was traded to Calgary and eventually used to draft Eric Nystrom). The Rangers got a 2nd round pick back (Lee Falardeau, damn it). I didn't include that info because I was responding to criticism that Sather trades core pieces for stars.

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08-12-2013, 12:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If he hasnt been held accountable through now, he won't be. Period. The guy is 70 years old. Hes not getting fired.

All we can hope for is that he relinquishes power to a qualified guy like Gorton, and that Dolan doesnt get too heavily involved in the process - because then we'd end up with a disaster like Brian Burke.
He was trashed pretty bad after 03'.

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08-12-2013, 12:25 PM
  #59
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Bure was practically done by the time the Rangers traded for him. I think most of us (maybe even the Rangers) didn't know how wrecked his knees were.

Some interesting numbers:

Jagr (age 32) 2003-04 77gp-31-43-74-38
lockout year
2005-2006 82-54-69-123-72

Nylander (age 32) 2003-04 18-1-13-14-22
lockout year
2005-06 81-23-56-79-76

Straka (age 32) 2003-04 54-10-16-26-20
lockout year
2005-06 82-22-54-76-42

Rucinsky (age 33) 2003-04 82-14-31-45-72
lockout year
2005-06 52-16-39-55-56

Nylander and Straka both early 30's had come off terrible seasons before the lockout. Rangers had a number of rookies who came out of nowhere. Most everyone thought Lundqvist was going to be really good but Kevin Weekes was going to be the starting guy--kind of a journeyman starter. Other rookies Prucha (30 goals), Dominic Moore, Hollweg, Tyutin, Ortmeyer. Rozsival had missed the entire 2003-04 season with a knee injury--never a fast skater--it was wondered at the time whether his career was shot. Malik was a stay at home guy. Poti (the next Brian Leetch when we traded for him a few years before) was a primadonna who never lived up to the hype and had a bad tendency to pokecheck and not take the body and to let players whack away at his goalie.

There was everu reason to believe the Rangers were going to suck in 05-06. Those 4 guys listed at the top--the numbers are almost unbelievable. Renney was the coach. He got a hell of a lot out of that team.

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08-12-2013, 12:31 PM
  #60
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Renney brought with him a level of professionalism that this organization had been missing since the mid 90s. I'll always be thankful for that.

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08-12-2013, 12:58 PM
  #61
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Sather is so full of crap, his eyes are brown and he desperately needs a few breath mints.

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08-12-2013, 01:20 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
I'm not sure how often he's on the radio in Edmonton, but every once in a while you do hear he was on the radio there...and nobody knows how often he's on the radio there that we do not hear about...perhaps often, perhaps not so often.

But either way Sather should not limit his radio presence to Edmonton only...I'm the 'hockey smarts' of radio people here in New York...GM's from other sports put up with questions from radio people who are not geniuses...Sather can do it too.

Even once would be nice.
If it wasn't for the 25th anniversary of the Gretzky trade,Sather wasn't talking to Bob Stauffer about anything.

Torts was the official team spokesman when he was here. Someone will need to speak to the media.

AV is new here.

Maybe Gorton will be the guy. He had a prominent role last week at the outdoor game press conference.

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08-12-2013, 01:34 PM
  #63
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Vigneault discussed his plan

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“If you look at Vancouver, how we evolved over the years, we were a more defensive-oriented team because our skill level wasn’t as high,” Vigneault said at a news conference at Radio City Music Hall. “As soon as our skill level started to evolve, we became one of the best offensive teams in the league. And that’s what I intend to do in New York.”

Glen Sather, the Rangers’ general manager, spoke at several points about a need to change the team’s style.

“Today’s game has changed,” he said. “If you watch the Stanley Cup playoffs today, you’ll see there’s a lot more offense going on.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/sp...oach.html?_r=0

Sather made a similar statement on the day Torts was terminated. He pointed to the remaining teams and how they have more offense in their game. At the time,five teams were left. Chicago and Detroit were still playing in their series. Boston. Pitt. LA.

Quote:
A more traditional — but not loose — defensive zone structure should give wingers more time and space through the neutral zone and on the entry. It should play to the strengths of Chris Kreider, a great skater with a big-time shot who is far better getting the puck on the wing in open ice than hunting for it along the boards and below the goal line.
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Changes in their defensive structure should allow the Rangers to possess the puck more often. In their two Presidents’ Trophy-winning seasons, the Canucks ranked fifth and seventh in five-on-five Corsi rankings per 60 minutes (percentage of attempted shots vs. attempted shots against) and the Rangers were 26th in that category when they finished second overall to Vancouver by one point in 2010-11.

The skill guys should benefit under Vigneault. The wear-and-tear guys shouldn’t be as worn-and-torn. The Rangers will still want to own the ground game — the Blackhawks have the most speed in the league, but their game is built on puck pressure — but the Rangers should present a more diversified approach this time around.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...ontent=Rangers

The Rangers aren't planning to win games 6-5. A more balanced approach. The Hawks took a page from the Wings playbook with hardworking skill guys.

The biggest indictment against Torts

Quote:
“[Pittsburgh] plays a lot differently than New York,” said Krug. “I felt like I didn’t have as many opportunities to jump up in the play, and that might have caused me to play back defensively a little bit more. But the style of game I play is picking and choosing the right moments.
http://www.csnne.com/blog/bruins-tal...me-vs-penguins

The Rangers gave Krug too much time and he beat them in that series. Pittsburgh and Chicago gave Krug nothing and he wasn't much of a factor. The coach refused to adjust. The Rangers never figured out the Bruins breakout.

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08-12-2013, 01:55 PM
  #64
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What Sather said about offensive teams has pretty much been the case since 2008. It took him 5 years to realize that?

Sather sees the game in whatever way best justifies his newest impulses. If this team stumbles and is unsuccessful under AV Sather will show up at the press conference after Vigneault's firing and say defense and goaltending win championships and the game doesn't change.

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08-12-2013, 02:07 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Sather went on the station in Edmonton to discuss the 25th anniversary of the Gretzky trade. When was the last time he was Edmonton radio? Or any radio station? The NY radio guys have no clue about the Rangers.
ALl they blab about is the Yankees

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08-12-2013, 03:06 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Some of these egos are very defensive about themselves. Torts came in ******** all over Renney about how the team wasn't in shape--blah, blah, blah. Sather is the same way. It's all on Neil Smith--when where the problem really started was with Jimmy Dolan--who in the pre cap years thought he could buy himself a Stanley Cup ala George Steinbrenner. That's ****ing why there wasn't any player development--that's why a washed up Messier returned--why we had to have Gretzky (which wasn't a bad thing), Lindros (with his 8 or more concussions), Lafontaine (another concussion away from la la land player), Bure (of the busted up knees) etc. etc. etc.



Sather of course is wily enough not to speak ill of his b-o-s-s who had him doing pretty much the same **** as he had Neil Smith doing before he fired him. This is not to say Smith doesn't have a % share of why the Rangers hit the skids but Sather really didn't start rebuilding the team until he was forced to by circumstance and a major circumstance was the salary cap. No longer was it possible anymore for Mr. Dolan to dream of buying a championship.

IMO if there is anyone who is pretty much blameless and does not get enough credit for the Rangers becoming a pretty good team again it's Tom Renney. The guy worked hard--did whatever the team asked him to do and almost always did it well and without blowing his own horn or pissing off the media (like Torts) for no good reason.
I pretty much go along with this.

I agree that Sather's reputation is built on getting to keep Gretzky and Messier from the WHA, drafted Kurri, Lowe, Coffey, Fuhr, Anderson, etc. in 1979-1981. His drafts with Edmonton after that (with the exception of a couple of players) was horrid. The draft picks he got from LA in the Gretzky trade didn't amount to much of anything. Then he gets to the NYR; says he wants to build with youth, but it takes him 5 years to get around to it and only because everyone knew a salary cap was coming. He only half-assed it when he did do it. He got a tragic break with Cherepanov, got a bad break with Dan Blackburn; lucked out with Lundqvist (how many All Star goalies are drafted in the 7th round 205 overall?). Trading for Pavel Bure, Eric Lindros and Jaromir Jagr when you're supposedly trying to rebuild with youth made absolutely no sense. They didn't really give up a lot, but Bure and Lindros had injury issues when Sather acquired them. Trying to rebuild and win at the same time rarely if ever works. A very flawed plan. Drafting since the 2004-2005 lockout has been a bit better, but no franchise impact players; (do you want say Staal is close to that?) Nice, useful players, but no top line forwards, outside of Cherepanov, but sadly, he passed away before he could arrive. It's true they haven't had any top 5 overall draft selections, but other teams have found impact players later on, sometimes MUCH later on (see the Detroit Red Wings, the best organization of all time at that)


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08-12-2013, 04:12 PM
  #67
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We have not won **** since hes been here and its been a long time. Hes a terrible GM does not do any scouting and his decisions are based on hunches and 1 play in a game. He trades guys like Korpo for Lesin, signs contracts to ****, and than tries to say he knew he could get assests for it. ya we got lucky with a few free agents because for exp Mon was even stupider, but come on, how many decesions has he made that has led us to a cup. The only reason we compete every year is because of Henrik.

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08-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by nsvoyageurs View Post
I pretty much go along with this.

I agree that Sather's reputation is built on getting to keep Gretzky and Messier from the WHA, drafted Kurri, Lowe, Coffey, Fuhr, Anderson, etc. in 1979-1981.
Messier was drafted, but Sather wasn't yet GM for that draft, which also included Lowe and Anderson.

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08-14-2013, 09:30 AM
  #69
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Agreed about Renney, but not for nothing, the plan for the Rangers in the 2004-05 season was to be very, very bad. And that decision was made during the 03-04 season. Many of the players that made 05-06 so special wouldn't have been there. No Straka, no Sykora, no Rucinsky, no Rucchin, no Rozsival, no Malik. Most of these guys wouldn't have been free agents in the lockout year or, in Rucchin and Sykora's case, they might not have been traded. Also, we probably wouldn't have had Lundqvist yet. It was supposed to be a true rebuild year.

Maybe the timing was auspicious with the advent of the salary cap anyway, but the rebuild decision was made before a salary cap was in place.
What rebuild? The Rangers stripped the team before the lockout to increase their chances of landing Crosby. The team was horrible and they figured they could get away with a month where they iced an even worse lineup (and they did, winning 2 and losing 10 from the day after the trade deadline to the end of the season). This was their opportunity to "tank the season" and they wound up tied for the best odds of landing Crosby. Unfortunately, the ping pong balls did not cooperate.

Which leads me to another point. Sather is simply an average GM. He's not awesome and he's no longer as much of a failure here as he was pre-lockout. Look, there are very, very few great GM's in this league. I'm not even sure who qualifies, although it's hard to discount what Holland has done in Detroit or Chiarelli in Boston. A lot of it can come down to one singular event. Had the Rangers been able to draft Crosby, Sather might have a bookend to his Edmonton era of success. Three seasons (and possibly a 4th) of Crosby and Jagr would have been a pretty interesting foundation.


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08-14-2013, 12:10 PM
  #70
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Trying to get Crosby wouldn't have been rebuilding? I think you're just quibbling there to change the way we look at the events at the end of the 03-04 season.

The team was going to be simply awful that season for sure. And it was a conscious decision. We ended up rebuilding anyway, by the way. It just took until 10-11 where we saw the fruits of it. Slow rebuild because we were competitive during that time. It was an organizational change in direction, more than a full on roster overhaul, that was the real hallmark of the rebuild.

All of that being said, I agree that Sather hasn't been much more than average. I would've said he had been above average until the Nash trade. Sometimes, his ability to evaluate his own team is still lacking.

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08-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #71
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Trying to get Crosby wouldn't have been rebuilding? I think you're just quibbling there to change the way we look at the events at the end of the 03-04 season.

The team was going to be simply awful that season for sure. And it was a conscious decision. We ended up rebuilding anyway, by the way. It just took until 10-11 where we saw the fruits of it. Slow rebuild because we were competitive during that time. It was an organizational change in direction, more than a full on roster overhaul, that was the real hallmark of the rebuild.

All of that being said, I agree that Sather hasn't been much more than average. I would've said he had been above average until the Nash trade. Sometimes, his ability to evaluate his own team is still lacking.
So, rebuilding teams hand over $120M in contracts to Gomez, Drury, and Redden? Lets not pretend Sather had some 7 year plan here. He didnt.

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08-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #72
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So, rebuilding teams hand over $120M in contracts to Gomez, Drury, and Redden? Lets not pretend Sather had some 7 year plan here. He didnt.
Rebuilding teams who are trying to stay competitive at the same time do. Teams can have two goals at the same time. I don't think Sather laid it out as a 7-year plan, but if you look at the makeup of our rosters post-Jagr, they're a lot more homegrown than they had been. And that's only possible because the system was rebuilt and was producing NHL quality players, although not many top end guys., admittedly.

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08-14-2013, 01:33 PM
  #73
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Rebuilding teams who are trying to stay competitive at the same time do. Teams can have two goals at the same time. I don't think Sather laid it out as a 7-year plan, but if you look at the makeup of our rosters post-Jagr, they're a lot more homegrown than they had been. And that's only possible because the system was rebuilt and was producing NHL quality players, although not many top end guys., admittedly.
I think you're trying to frame modus operandi for the entire NHL as some sort of rebuilding plan for the New York Rangers.

The salary cap forced the Rangers to start flooding the roster with young/drafted guys. I don't think it represented any sort of seismic shift in the ideology of Glen Sather, who I think has been confused regarding how he wants to build this team from the day he got here.

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08-14-2013, 01:37 PM
  #74
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Again, the rebuild decision was made before the salary cap was in place. The Rangers INTENDED to be awful, both the year we lost and the first year back.

The Nash trade was the first time since before the lockout that Sather traded youth for a vet. That's a pretty seismic shift, given how Sathers first 4 seasons went.

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08-14-2013, 01:56 PM
  #75
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I'm not condoning Sather's stint as the GM of the NYR, but I'm seeing some poster seemingly insinuating that the Nash trade was a bad one which is ridiculous to me.

The 2012-13 New York Rangers would not have made the playoffs had they not done that trade. The decline primarily stemmed from poor shooting luck and the surprising sharp decline of play from Richards and Gaborik.

The two trades with Columbus is a big net plus for the Rangers IMO.

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