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Lundqvist to be best paid player?

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Old
08-14-2013, 07:43 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Yes there are a few outliers such as Marty, Roy and Hasek, but for each of those guys there are the Howards, Osgoods, MA Fleury's and Wards as well.

Lundqvist at more than 7.5 per is a mistake.
Ward has a Conn Smythe. You take Hank off this team, be prepared for NHL limbo, a.k.a the Maple Leafs until this past season: not bad enough to suck beneficially, not good enough to make the playoffs. zZzZzZz

Give him whatever the hell he wants.

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08-14-2013, 07:59 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
Ward has a Conn Smythe. You take Hank off this team, be prepared for NHL limbo, a.k.a the Maple Leafs until this past season: not bad enough to suck beneficially, not good enough to make the playoffs. zZzZzZz

Give him whatever the hell he wants.
Ward with a Conn Smythe means he had a nice PO run, not that he is an elite level goalie, because we all know that he is not.

Put Ward on this Rangers team with the defence we have and the style that we play and while he will not be as good as Hank, I 1000% believe we make the PO's.

This summer coming up, Crawford, Hillier and Halak are all UFA's. They are all 31 and under and will be making between 5 and 6 million.

Potentially that's a 1-2 million per year savings. Add that to the cap space freed up with the Richards buyout and you have an opportunity to retain ALL the defence and add scoring up front.

History has shown us time and again you do NOT need an elite level goalie to win the Cup.

Specifically since the last lockout in 2005 it's become more evident that an elite level goalie is an un-needed to win a cup or two in the Hawks case.

The structure of the team is all wrong and continues to be wrong.

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08-14-2013, 08:05 PM
  #78
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The Rangers will have enough money to give Hank a huge deal, resign Callahan and Girardi and still bring in scoring help, chill out.

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08-14-2013, 08:11 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
The Rangers will have enough money to give Hank a huge deal, resign Callahan and Girardi and still bring in scoring help, chill out.
not sure how you figure that out.

good luck with that

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08-14-2013, 08:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
not sure how you figure that out.

good luck with that
lets say the Rangers give Hank 8M, Callahan 5.8 (same as Brown) and Girardi 4.5

From what they make now, that's a raise of about 3.9M for 3 players which comes out to about 1.33M per player. That's not going to cripple our cap.

Rangers only have 6 player signed for next season. Nash, Staal, Mcdonagh, Hagelin, Richards, Dorsett, and soon to be 7 with Stepan..


Last edited by Lundsanity30: 08-14-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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08-14-2013, 09:00 PM
  #81
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So, Crawford + $2M cap space > Lundqvist?

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08-14-2013, 09:08 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
So, Crawford + $2M cap space > Lundqvist?
Crawford and Boyle.. get it right

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08-14-2013, 09:17 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
So, Crawford + $2M cap space > Lundqvist?
It's not just Crawford and the difference in their salaries.

It's Crawford, 2+ million in savings, the cap increase and the Richards buy out means retaining all of our current players and adding another top line forward of which there are many in 2014 (as of today)

The Rangers defensively are going to be sound enough that you don't have to rely on your goalie being the best player on the ice every night.

Adding an offensive player for a top line role will also mean that the pressure to HAVE to win games 1-0 and 2-1 are a thing of the past.

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08-14-2013, 09:24 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
It's not just Crawford and the difference in their salaries.

It's Crawford, 2+ million in savings, the cap increase and the Richards buy out means retaining all of our current players and adding another top line forward of which there are many in 2014 (as of today)

The Rangers defensively are going to be sound enough that you don't have to rely on your goalie being the best player on the ice every night.

Adding an offensive player for a top line role will also mean that the pressure to HAVE to win games 1-0 and 2-1 are a thing of the past.
With the Richards buy out AND the cap going up most likely, what makes you think the Rangers can't afford to bring one in even with giving Hank 8M a year?

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08-14-2013, 09:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
lets say the Rangers give Hank 8M, Callahan 5.8 (same as Brown) and Girardi 4.5

From what they make now, that's a raise of about 3.9M for 3 players which comes out to about 1.33M per player. That's not going to cripple our cap.

Rangers only have 6 player signed for next season. Nash, Staal, Mcdonagh, Hagelin, Richards, Dorsett, and soon to be 7 with Stepan..
6 players at 27 million.

Add Cally, Hank and Girardi that's another 18.3

We are now at 45.3 million on 9 players

Stepan is going to be at (we hope) 2.85 on a bridge deal.

48.1 on 10 players

Assuming the cap goes up to 70 million, we would have 22 million to fill out 12 spots

1.3-1.5 for a back up
1.5 for Kreider
1.8 for Zuccs
4 per for Brassard (800k raise from what he's making now)
4 per for MDZ
2 per for J. Moore

That's an additional 14.6 for 6 players

we would then have 8 million to spend on the final 6 players.

There's no room to add that additional offence we need to stop relying on Hank to be our best player night in and night out.

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08-14-2013, 09:40 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
6 players at 27 million.

Add Cally, Hank and Girardi that's another 18.3

We are now at 45.3 million on 9 players

Stepan is going to be at (we hope) 2.85 on a bridge deal.

48.1 on 10 players

Assuming the cap goes up to 70 million, we would have 22 million to fill out 12 spots

1.3-1.5 for a back up
1.5 for Kreider
1.8 for Zuccs
4 per for Brassard (800k raise from what he's making now)
4 per for MDZ
2 per for J. Moore

That's an additional 14.6 for 6 players

we would then have 8 million to spend on the final 6 players.

There's no room to add that additional offence we need to stop relying on Hank to be our best player night in and night out.
I'm also of the believe that guys like Kristo, Mcilrath, Lindberg will take some of those spots, and I EXPECT Miller to be on the 2014 team..

In your scenario (70M cap)

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($6.643m—7.0%) / Derek Stepan ($3.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derick Brassard ($4.000m) / Ryan Callahan ($5.500m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / J.T. Miller ($1.244m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($4.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael Del Zotto ($4.000m)
John Moore ($2.000m) / Dylan McIlrath ($1.295m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m) /
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.000m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
OTHER
Buyout: Brad Richards ($0.000m)
Buyout: Derick Brassard ($0.000m)
Buyout: Arron Asham ($0.000m)
Buyout: Taylor Pyatt ($0.000m)
Buyout: Brian Boyle ($0.000m)
Buyout: Benoit Pouliot ($0.000m)
Buyout: Mats Zuccarello ($0.000m)
Buyout: Dominic Moore ($0.000m)
Buyout: Darroll Powe ($0.000m)
Buyout: Dan Girardi ($0.000m)
Buyout: Michael Del Zotto ($0.000m)
Buyout: Anton Stralman ($0.000m)
Buyout: Aaron Johnson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Henrik Lundqvist ($0.000m)
Buyout: Ryan Callahan ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,900,357; BONUSES: $2,125,000
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $7,224,643

I'm pretty sure 7.2M is enough for a 4th line LW, a 3rd line RW and a 13th forward.

There's no way the cap goes up to 70M next year though IMO


Last edited by Lundsanity30: 08-14-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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08-14-2013, 10:06 PM
  #87
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The good thing is I believe Gorton said he wants to have Hank/Cally/G all locked up before the season. That should give us some direction of what we want to do going into the 14 off season.

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08-14-2013, 10:31 PM
  #88
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pay cut for the team would be nice, like 8 years, 6-6.5m.

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08-14-2013, 11:12 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN88 View Post
pay cut for the team would be nice, like 8 years, 6-6.5m.
However, that's not going to happen.

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08-15-2013, 07:52 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I'm also of the believe that guys like Kristo, Mcilrath, Lindberg will take some of those spots, and I EXPECT Miller to be on the 2014 team..

In your scenario (70M cap)

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($6.643m—7.0%) / Derek Stepan ($3.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derick Brassard ($4.000m) / Ryan Callahan ($5.500m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / J.T. Miller ($1.244m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($4.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael Del Zotto ($4.000m)
John Moore ($2.000m) / Dylan McIlrath ($1.295m)
Justin Falk ($0.975m) /
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.000m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
OTHER
Buyout: Brad Richards ($0.000m)
Buyout: Derick Brassard ($0.000m)
Buyout: Arron Asham ($0.000m)
Buyout: Taylor Pyatt ($0.000m)
Buyout: Brian Boyle ($0.000m)
Buyout: Benoit Pouliot ($0.000m)
Buyout: Mats Zuccarello ($0.000m)
Buyout: Dominic Moore ($0.000m)
Buyout: Darroll Powe ($0.000m)
Buyout: Dan Girardi ($0.000m)
Buyout: Michael Del Zotto ($0.000m)
Buyout: Anton Stralman ($0.000m)
Buyout: Aaron Johnson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Henrik Lundqvist ($0.000m)
Buyout: Ryan Callahan ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,900,357; BONUSES: $2,125,000
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $7,224,643

I'm pretty sure 7.2M is enough for a 4th line LW, a 3rd line RW and a 13th forward.

There's no way the cap goes up to 70M next year though IMO
A few things.

First, no way in hell are we going to be lucky enough to retain Girardi for anything under 5 million. Based on the perfect storm that he is, a better than average defenceman, a right handed shot that plays the right side. The league is short on Righty shooting RS defenceman. We are going to have to pay a premium for that type of player. I'm expecting 5 to 5.5 per for Girardi.

Additionally, how are you getting Vanek at 6.6? A goal scoring threat like Vanek is going to be in demand. With the cap going up, he's going to demand (and get) over 7 per.

How is Kreider's number not going up? He will be at 1.5 at the very least.

Still lack scoring on the 2nd line and on the 3rd line.

There's more questions than answers with your line up.

So, even with the cap going up and the Richards buyout, the lack of scoring on the 2nd and third lines remains an issue.

I'm with you in that I hope that Kreider starts to show what the package suggests he's capable of. I also hope that Miller can step into that 3rd line center spot and deliver 30+ points. I can tell you he's not going to do that playing with Dorsett who I actually like alot.

And what really throws both of views into chaos is if Stepan gets signed long term (which I would have no issues with) at something along the lines of 4.75 per over 6 years.

I just think that we are going to have real problems retaining guys and while all I am arguing for here si 500k in cap space on Lundqvist deal, that can be the differecne in getting a scorer for the 2nd line or a better than average 3rd liner.

I don't see the need to pay Hank more than 7.5. It addresses being paid as an elite level player and makes him the highest paid at his position over the next 7 years.

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08-15-2013, 08:18 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I very much enjoy watching people flip over a million dollars or 2.

Like our genius GM could legitimately use that to make the team better. Ha.
Every drop in the bucket adds up.

An extra million for Hank...then an extra million for another player...then another 500k for an emergency replacement for an injury...then another guy getting 300k more than what he's worth....before you know it, there's an extra 5, 6, 7 million tied up in salary compared to the roster's worth. That money could translate into the missing piece for a Cup run.

It's simply a matter where a good GM tries to make sure he pays the least amount possible on every contract on the team, if the ultimate goal is to win a Cup. You need to manage every single penny of that cap effectively to assemble the best team possible.

Everyone knows how valuable Hank is to the team. But, you can't gamble and say oh, the cap will be 70, 80, 90 million in two years, let's throw a pile of money at the feet of one player! It's just too risky.

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08-15-2013, 08:25 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
Every drop in the bucket adds up.

An extra million for Hank...then an extra million for another player...then another 500k for an emergency replacement for an injury...then another guy getting 300k more than what he's worth....before you know it, there's an extra 5, 6, 7 million tied up in salary compared to the roster's worth. That money could translate into the missing piece for a Cup run.

It's simply a matter where a good GM tries to make sure he pays the least amount possible on every contract on the team, if the ultimate goal is to win a Cup. You need to manage every single penny of that cap effectively to assemble the best team possible.

Everyone knows how valuable Hank is to the team. But, you can't gamble and say oh, the cap will be 70, 80, 90 million in two years, let's throw a pile of money at the feet of one player! It's just too risky.
If Lundqvist makes $8.5M instead of $7.5M per year, its something I can live with. If anyone else on the roster - literally, anyone else - gets overpaid, then its stupidity that shouldnt happen.

Yes, its a double standard, and yes, you bend when someone has given as much to this team as Lundqvist has and will.

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08-15-2013, 08:42 AM
  #93
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It's been proven time and time again in the salary cap era that elite level defense and good goaltending wins Stanley Cups...not vice versa. But we do things differently here...

That said, at this point Sather has painted us into a corner...we really have no choice but to overpay Hank with an eight year deal that BEGINS with him at age 32. Without Hank we would be even worse than we are now...a team that more often than not struggles to make the playoffs, and wins five playoff series in eight years...all this with an elite goaltender.

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08-15-2013, 08:59 AM
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If Hank REALLY wants to win a cup, he should not try to be the richest Swede in NY while trying to do so. But that's probably obvious. Whatever business adventure he's got going With Avery (restaurant?) will probably be more popular with a guy that brought the cup owning it as well.

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08-15-2013, 09:06 AM
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It's been proven time and time again in the salary cap era that elite level defense and good goaltending wins Stanley Cups...not vice versa. But we do things differently here...

That said, at this point Sather has painted us into a corner...we really have no choice but to overpay Hank with an eight year deal that BEGINS with him at age 32. Without Hank we would be even worse than we are now...a team that more often than not struggles to make the playoffs, and wins five playoff series in eight years...all this with an elite goaltender.
Whats proven to win championships in the post-lockout era is elite homegrown talent. If you're going to frame the argument as "you dont need an elite goaltender to win a Stanley Cup," then you are missing the point.

Your beef shouldnt be with paying Lundqvist, the one elite player Sather has stumbled upon in his 13 years, your beef should be with the fact Sather hasn't procured anybody else to help him.

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08-15-2013, 09:29 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ilovemymum View Post
If Hank REALLY wants to win a cup, he should not try to be the richest Swede in NY while trying to do so. But that's probably obvious. Whatever business adventure he's got going With Avery (restaurant?) will probably be more popular with a guy that brought the cup owning it as well.
So, essentially, Lundqvist foregoes money that he would likely get on the open market, so Glen Sather has more cap space to build a contender.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place. That cant miss. I mean, theres nothing in Sather's track record that suggests he'd waste the space.

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08-15-2013, 09:32 AM
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I would normally agree but it seens Gorton is the one making the moves now so cap space is a good thing

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08-15-2013, 09:36 AM
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If we let Lundqvist go to free up space for top line forwards, one major issue still remains unsolved: Sather has no clue how to build an elite offense.

The Rangers have finished top 10 in goals per game only once during Sather's reign - his first season as GM, 2000-2001. Even in the prelockout years with no cap constraints and the freedom to spend at will, he struggled to field a top scoring team other than that one season. In the cap era, Sather and the front office has shown that when they do have cap space and money to spend, they don't necessarily spend it on the right players.

Is it lack of cap space that has held us back offensively, or is it the ineptness of Sather & Co.? It's probably the latter. One thing is for certain: if Lundqvist ends up leaving the Rangers, I would in no way, shape, or form trust Sather to build a team that is capable of being competitive let alone a contender without an elite goaltender such as Hank.

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08-15-2013, 09:40 AM
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Whats proven to win championships in the post-lockout era is elite homegrown talent. If you're going to frame the argument as "you dont need an elite goaltender to win a Stanley Cup," then you are missing the point.

Your beef shouldnt be with paying Lundqvist, the one elite player Sather has stumbled upon in his 13 years, your beef should be with the fact Sather hasn't procured anybody else to help him.
While I don't disagree with any of your statements, the point remains that elite goaltending has not led to a Stanley Cup in the salary cap era.

As I said, Sather has left us no choice. We're going to overpay Hank for eight years because we have no other options. If you haven't seen my posts ridiculing Sather's GM acumen, you have not been paying attention.

We've accomplished little in eight years with Hank in goal...not blaming Hank, but the whole plan (or the different plan year to year) is not working. But I guess we're sticking with the plan...eight more years of moaning about Hank being great but not having enough support.

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08-15-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
A few things.

First, no way in hell are we going to be lucky enough to retain Girardi for anything under 5 million. Based on the perfect storm that he is, a better than average defenceman, a right handed shot that plays the right side. The league is short on Righty shooting RS defenceman. We are going to have to pay a premium for that type of player. I'm expecting 5 to 5.5 per for Girardi.

Additionally, how are you getting Vanek at 6.6? A goal scoring threat like Vanek is going to be in demand. With the cap going up, he's going to demand (and get) over 7 per.

How is Kreider's number not going up? He will be at 1.5 at the very least.

Still lack scoring on the 2nd line and on the 3rd line.

There's more questions than answers with your line up.

So, even with the cap going up and the Richards buyout, the lack of scoring on the 2nd and third lines remains an issue.

I'm with you in that I hope that Kreider starts to show what the package suggests he's capable of. I also hope that Miller can step into that 3rd line center spot and deliver 30+ points. I can tell you he's not going to do that playing with Dorsett who I actually like alot.

And what really throws both of views into chaos is if Stepan gets signed long term (which I would have no issues with) at something along the lines of 4.75 per over 6 years.

I just think that we are going to have real problems retaining guys and while all I am arguing for here si 500k in cap space on Lundqvist deal, that can be the differecne in getting a scorer for the 2nd line or a better than average 3rd liner.

I don't see the need to pay Hank more than 7.5. It addresses being paid as an elite level player and makes him the highest paid at his position over the next 7 years.
Vanek was really just a hypothetical, I dont think we need someone like a Vanek, we just need a LW better than Kreider and Hagelin to push those two down. I think 5.5 is definitely way too high for Girardi, I dont think he puts up enough offense to justify that IMO. Look I get your debate, but Hank is the ONE person and the ONLY one that we shouldn't try to save cap on IMO

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