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08-14-2013, 05:01 PM
  #801
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Edmonton wouldn't move Schultz for anything short of a gross overpayment. There's really no deal to be made there unless you want to gut the team. He chose Edmonton because their lousy defensive group and "rebuilding" mentality all but guaranteed him a spot on their NHL roster. It's also a 60 minute flight from his hometown to Edmonton. Whereas the Rangers already had Richards and Del Zotto on the points on the PP. Despite that, from what I heard, the Rangers were right in there until the end.
Bold = the key point.

I would have assumed Sather would have grown a pair and told Torts, or any coach, this kid is can't miss, if he wants a spot on the team, first pair YOU GIVE IT TO HIM regardless of whether or not he deserves it. If he succeeds great, if not, you can recalibrate and try again slower up the ladder. So IMO the issue should not have been the spot. Esp. w/Rangers pitiful PP at point.

Thanks.

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08-14-2013, 05:06 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I can answer all your questions very easily:

We aren't getting Justin Schultz.

The only speculation that I recall was from NYR fans based on his ties to McD and Step. He chose edmonton for a reason. He isn't going to want out after 1 or 2 years. Edmonton isn't going to trade him.
Thanks.
I agree Edmonton is not going to trade him ordinarily, that's why I inquired about what was the deal behind the scenes.

What was that reason? Specifically.
Seems Trxjw got it.

Was there any basis to hope Schultz might not renew? That would be the only basis to think we could get any trade, which would still be expensive.

Again, thanks.

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08-14-2013, 05:06 PM
  #803
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Hopefully next year with MSG done being renovated, we can have a home game at a normal time to start the season.

Those 10 PM starts are a killer.

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08-14-2013, 05:15 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I think that allure of playing a 1st pairing role with the likes of RNH, Hall, Ebs and Yakupov all made Edmonton a much more attractive option than NY where he would not have gotten the top pairing spot (rightfully so) and the thought or growing as a team with Stepan, McD and a few other guys here is not nearly as appealing as the guys he's playing with now.

Edmonton was and is a better fit for that player. They will re-sign him. He will not become a RFA
Also thank you.

I agree that the Fs they had and added, along with a couple of decent guys in the D prospect pool, did make Edmonton arguably more attractive then.

However, I believe we have improved more greatly, and will have more flexibility w/Richards gone next year. Perhaps we are more attractive now.

I was hoping someone, possibly Rangerboy, would have some CIA level ***** identifying a core reason was Torts, and the aggravation with his nonsense.
Thus no more Torts - no impediment there to future JSchultz.

However, it seems the core reason is the x factor of family in that his home is an hour away from Edmonton, according to Trxjw.

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08-14-2013, 05:27 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Also thank you.

I agree that the Fs they had and added, along with a couple of decent guys in the D prospect pool, did make Edmonton arguably more attractive then.

However, I believe we have improved more greatly, and will have more flexibility w/Richards gone next year. Perhaps we are more attractive now.

I was hoping someone, possibly Rangerboy, would have some CIA level ***** identifying a core reason was Torts, and the aggravation with his nonsense.
Thus no more Torts - no impediment there to future JSchultz.

However, it seems the core reason is the x factor of family in that his home is an hour away from Edmonton, according to Trxjw.
I wasn't really a Torts fan either, but c'mon now...

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08-14-2013, 05:37 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by 3rdlineglory View Post
I wasn't really a Torts fan either, but c'mon now...
WHAT!
No c'mon now.

There is no way by any realistic measurement you can say Torts was a positive factor who would have helped us get this guy, or any other prospect/player besides Brad Richards, and conversely, based on the obvious way he berated guys, including rookies, you can make the argument he actively hurt our cause.

Water under the bridge now, and I assume when Trxjw said home, he meant family roots, etc and not just a residence that could easily be bought and replaced. THAT is the dominant factor, apparently. But if that were not so, and if he were open to offers, that could mean that no JT would be an improved atmosphere in NY for JS to consider, along with everything else that comes with the territory.

You can't imagine how pleased I am Torts is buh-bye,
Barring injury, possibly favorite Torts whipping boy Kreider is gonna do well and I will enjoy underscoring that for those posters here who wanted to give me a hard time about it.

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08-14-2013, 05:40 PM
  #807
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If Kreider does well this season, it won't be because Tortorella is gone, but because he is ready to be an NHL player. He clearly wasnt last year.

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08-14-2013, 06:27 PM
  #808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
WHAT!
No c'mon now.

There is no way by any realistic measurement you can say Torts was a positive factor who would have helped us get this guy, or any other prospect/player besides Brad Richards, and conversely, based on the obvious way he berated guys, including rookies, you can make the argument he actively hurt our cause.

Water under the bridge now, and I assume when Trxjw said home, he meant family roots, etc and not just a residence that could easily be bought and replaced. THAT is the dominant factor, apparently. But if that were not so, and if he were open to offers, that could mean that no JT would be an improved atmosphere in NY for JS to consider, along with everything else that comes with the territory.

You can't imagine how pleased I am Torts is buh-bye,
Barring injury, possibly favorite Torts whipping boy Kreider is gonna do well and I will enjoy underscoring that for those posters here who wanted to give me a hard time about it.
I'm not sure any NHL coach would give more minutes to a player that hasn't proven anything at the NHL level than any of Staal, McD, Girardi, MDZ, and Stralman. People keep criticizing Torts for pushing the young players, but that was actually one of his best traits. My issues with Torts reside in other areas.

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08-15-2013, 12:43 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
If Kreider does well this season, it won't be because Tortorella is gone, but because he is ready to be an NHL player. He clearly wasnt last year.
Hard to argue against that.

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08-15-2013, 12:53 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
If Kreider does well this season, it won't be because Tortorella is gone, but because he is ready to be an NHL player. He clearly wasnt last year.
I think it's a little of both, but mostly the latter. I think he's ready.

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08-15-2013, 04:32 AM
  #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Edmonton wouldn't move Schultz for anything short of a gross overpayment. There's really no deal to be made there unless you want to gut the team. He chose Edmonton because their lousy defensive group and "rebuilding" mentality all but guaranteed him a spot on their NHL roster. It's also a 60 minute flight from his hometown to Edmonton. Whereas the Rangers already had Richards and Del Zotto on the points on the PP. Despite that, from what I heard, the Rangers were right in there until the end.
Its not always easy to predict, but situation is everything in the NHL. It really is.

I mean, if you are short of Sid or Malkin, you cannot compare entering the league for Pittsburg the last 7-8 years with entering the league for Florida during that time frame. I am sure that he bottom line is pretty darn diffrent for a Letang or Mike Green if they were drafted by Florida instead of Pit/Was.

I think we would have been a good fit for Schultz. Like I said, its hard to predict, but if a young offensvie D could join Detroit in the mid 90's, Qubeck/Colorado in 95/96, Washington with Bäckström and AO in place, Pittsburgh with Sid and Malkin, and so forth, its hard to argue against it.

I do wonder how EDM will pan out. RNH, Hall and Yaks are great young players, but so far neither has really stepped up. There are never any guarantees. Many think just sucking the worst of all teams (which is a feat in itself) is a slam dunk. I wonder if you even get a 50% shot of making it to the SCF's once with multiple 1st overall picks. For every Pittsburgh and Qubeck/Colorado, there seem to be a a couple of Atlantas or Ottawas.

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08-15-2013, 05:32 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Its not always easy to predict, but situation is everything in the NHL. It really is.

I mean, if you are short of Sid or Malkin, you cannot compare entering the league for Pittsburg the last 7-8 years with entering the league for Florida during that time frame. I am sure that he bottom line is pretty darn diffrent for a Letang or Mike Green if they were drafted by Florida instead of Pit/Was.

I think we would have been a good fit for Schultz. Like I said, its hard to predict, but if a young offensvie D could join Detroit in the mid 90's, Qubeck/Colorado in 95/96, Washington with Bäckström and AO in place, Pittsburgh with Sid and Malkin, and so forth, its hard to argue against it.

I do wonder how EDM will pan out. RNH, Hall and Yaks are great young players, but so far neither has really stepped up. There are never any guarantees. Many think just sucking the worst of all teams (which is a feat in itself) is a slam dunk. I wonder if you even get a 50% shot of making it to the SCF's once with multiple 1st overall picks. For every Pittsburgh and Qubeck/Colorado, there seem to be a a couple of Atlantas or Ottawas.
While RNH did regress somewhat, Yak had a decent rookie season and Hall produced at a 90 point pace.

Not sure we can expect more than 90 per from Hall.

It's the first year these five guys have played together. If after this season we see continued regression from both RNH and Eberle, then they are going to have some serious issues to address like the cap hit for Eb's.

Until then, there's time for these guys to show what they are as players.

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08-15-2013, 05:52 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
While RNH did regress somewhat, Yak had a decent rookie season and Hall produced at a 90 point pace.

Not sure we can expect more than 90 per from Hall.

It's the first year these five guys have played together. If after this season we see continued regression from both RNH and Eberle, then they are going to have some serious issues to address like the cap hit for Eb's.

Until then, there's time for these guys to show what they are as players.
Yeah for sure.

What really is hard is taking that step from being outside the top 8 in the West to getting into the PO's year after year for atleast a 3-4 year period. Its just rare for teams to be able to do that journey. And when looking at the cellar teams that have been able to do it, in almost each and every case it has taken something extra. Its really rare that a team improve inch for inch for three years and than all of a sudden is in. Some teams can get in, and are then back out against instantly (like say CBJ).

In the end, I am not doubting EDM's ability to do well pretty soon. Just acknowledging that its a really tough situation they are in -- too.

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08-15-2013, 06:39 AM
  #814
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Torts tried to make Chris Kreider into Carl Hagelin. Using his speed to chase down loose pucks like the energizer bunny.

3:20. Kreider talks about learning to play your(his) game as one of the things he learned his first full year of pro hockey.



Kreider has quick hands around the net. He scored his goals in the 2010 WJC around the net. In his 2nd stint with the Whale,he scored around the net. He is a big boy. The Leafs used JVR around the net on the PP. VAN used Burrows around the net. The Rangers will need some net presence.




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08-15-2013, 06:41 AM
  #815
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This is how the Rangers should use Kreider

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08-15-2013, 06:45 AM
  #816
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This is how the Rangers should use Kreider
And Callahan, which is a bit of a problem...

Kreider might not be allowed to learn that trade in the NHL as long as Cally is here.

We got what we got in Kreider. Chris has certainly to any point imaginable done his part so far. He is in tremendous shape, and I don't for a second buy any talk about him not pulling his wait in HFD. People equal lack of -- not hockey sense -- but elite (that is what it takes) (offensive) understanding of the game, and hence not being able to get involved enough, with lack of effort (It was the same with Grachev who didn't have the agility (duh 1% of players 6'4 can skate like someone who is 6'1) to get involved by itself, and everyone called him lazy).

So what do we do with him now?

Its up to us, but at the same time its not easy. Wasting him shouldn't be an option, he has too much for that. Putting him on the PP? We have a PP that must get going and a bunch of players who also somehow needs to play on the PP to get going. Kreider is important for this org, but so are many others. Should HFD be an option for him? There are many options.


Last edited by Ola: 08-15-2013 at 07:14 AM.
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08-15-2013, 06:46 AM
  #817
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This is how the Rangers should use Kreider
This just isn't true. Remember in the WJC when Kreider was used in front of the net?

Being a net front presence is good. Standing in front of the net on the PP is a waste of his skill. He has never done well there. When he scored his goals in CT "in front of the net", it was usually shots from the slot, not bang-in garbage goals.

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08-15-2013, 06:59 AM
  #818
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Plus, the only reason Tortorella tried to get Kreider to play a similar game to Hagelin is because Kreider looked like crap playing his own game.

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08-15-2013, 07:43 AM
  #819
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so nothings really changed lately. Boyle on wing full time?\

Stepan, Richards, Brassard, Moore
Nash, Hagelin, Pouliott, Boyle
Callahan, Zuccarello, Pyatt, Dorsett
Asham and Powe likely start with team since Cally and Hags may be out to start. Although I am going to say they are on waiers again before the yr starts.

pray Kreider, Kristo, Miller, Fast,Lindberg, Hrvik, Haley somebody! steps up

I like the G obviously

D is solid too even though which LD moving to RD is up in the air

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08-15-2013, 08:28 AM
  #820
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Tortorella is the reason Schultz didnt come to NY? Ha. What idiocy.

Schultz should ask McDonagh about progressing under Torts and how he enjoys his new $30M contract.

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08-15-2013, 12:38 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by 3rdlineglory View Post
I'm not sure any NHL coach would give more minutes to a player that hasn't proven anything at the NHL level than any of Staal, McD, Girardi, MDZ, and Stralman. People keep criticizing Torts for pushing the young players, but that was actually one of his best traits. My issues with Torts reside in other areas.
If it is the difference between getting him at all or not, you make an exception and provide a guarantee. If the player survives baptism under fire, which was more less the case w/JSchultz, great; if not, you tell the player, who is under contract to you, ok, you've tried, you still got the talent, you need some insight to the NHL game; let us give it to you so we can fast track you back as soon as your up to speed. Since the inexperienced player doesn't wanna be embarrassed or amass bad stats, he does it.

Also there is a difference between "pushing" and berating, which we KNOW Torts did to certain players. Repeatedly.

Good riddance, JT, kiss my --- what was it Bender said, my shiny metal .... aw, never mind.

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08-15-2013, 12:43 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Tortorella is the reason Schultz didnt come to NY? Ha. What idiocy.

Schultz should ask McDonagh about progressing under Torts and how he enjoys his new $30M contract.
Not idiocy.
Clearly, Torts was a negative factor. Possibly a deciding one.
However, I asked for some opinions and I agree with what was said that his family was but an hour away from Edmonton.

Apparenlty THAT was "the" reason, if you had to narrow it down to one.

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08-15-2013, 12:44 PM
  #823
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Torts tried to make Chris Kreider into Carl Hagelin. Using his speed to chase down loose pucks like the energizer bunny.

3:20. Kreider talks about learning to play your(his) game as one of the things he learned his first full year of pro hockey.



Kreider has quick hands around the net. He scored his goals in the 2010 WJC around the net. In his 2nd stint with the Whale,he scored around the net. He is a big boy. The Leafs used JVR around the net on the PP. VAN used Burrows around the net. The Rangers will need some net presence.




Thank you.
Exactly.
What a waste of CK's potential.

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08-15-2013, 12:50 PM
  #824
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If Kreider does well this season, it won't be because Tortorella is gone, but because he is ready to be an NHL player. He clearly wasnt last year.
To the extent Kreider is obviously improved from the year under his belt, which having played a min of professional hockey he sorely needed, sure he'll be better this year.

Duh.

The ? is did he get a fair shake last year to be all he could be, or did Torts get into his head, and screw up his game by trying to make him be Hagelin, or this or that.

Young players make mistakes.
He could have made them here, on a higher line w/better players. Instead, he got minimal time here, on 4th line.

It was not a fair trial, and not a fair judge.

We will see now, this year.

I will have the last laugh on this.

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08-15-2013, 12:53 PM
  #825
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Plus, the only reason Tortorella tried to get Kreider to play a similar game to Hagelin is because Kreider looked like crap playing his own game.
Or, more likely to be accurate, CK never really had a chance to grow or fail.

Torts wanted to dominate all the players, including the fresh new golden boy.

So Emile Francis of him.

The chains are supposed to be off as of NOW. Let's talk about it after a coupla weeks.

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