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Old
08-15-2013, 09:44 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
While I don't disagree with any of your statements, the point remains that elite goaltending has not led to a Stanley Cup in the salary cap era.

As I said, Sather has left us no choice. We're going to overpay Hank for eight years because we have no other options. If you haven't seen my posts ridiculing Sather's GM acumen, you have not been paying attention.

We've accomplished little in eight years with Hank in goal...not blaming Hank, but the whole plan (or the different plan year to year) is not working. But I guess we're sticking with the plan...eight more years of moaning about Hank being great but not having enough support.
You are insinuating here that letting our best player, by far, walk is somehow going to put the team on the right path. When, in all likelihood, it will just lead to more of the same crap roster building without the team's best player in decades.

Unless Gorton is officially named GM, and the Rangers plan is to tear it all down (which it wont be), I don't understand this line of thinking.

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08-15-2013, 09:47 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I would normally agree but it seens Gorton is the one making the moves now so cap space is a good thing
I won't believe that Gorton has any real power in the decision making until he's handed the title of General Manager.

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08-15-2013, 09:49 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
While I don't disagree with any of your statements, the point remains that elite goaltending has not led to a Stanley Cup in the salary cap era.

As I said, Sather has left us no choice. We're going to overpay Hank for eight years because we have no other options. If you haven't seen my posts ridiculing Sather's GM acumen, you have not been paying attention.

We've accomplished little in eight years with Hank in goal...not blaming Hank, but the whole plan (or the different plan year to year) is not working. But I guess we're sticking with the plan...eight more years of moaning about Hank being great but not having enough support.
Well... that's just flat out not true.

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08-15-2013, 09:49 AM
  #104
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7.5, 8 or 8.5, it won't matter that much. 7 or 8 years, it won't matter that much. Yeah, every little bit counts, but we have a number of good young prospects knocking on the door. Why do we even need to bring in a guy like Vanek? If we still have a glaring need for a LW next year, we don't have to fill it with Vanek. We don't always need to go out and get the "best", most expensive player to fill a hole.

There will be cheaper options available, either in free agency or through trade.

Here's my projection for 2014:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.850m) / Derek Stepan ($3.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Derick Brassard ($4.500m) / Ryan Callahan ($5.500m)
Danny Kristo ($1.300m) / J.T. Miller ($1.244m) / Jesper Fasth ($0.900m)
Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael Del Zotto ($4.500m)
John Moore ($1.500m) / Dylan McIlrath ($1.295m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.000m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,507,500; BONUSES: $2,337,500
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $10,830,000

Yes, this includes 5 guys that will be either 1st or 2nd year players. But these are all players that are ready now or should be ready by 2014. We have a little over 10 mil left to sign 3 more players. Maybe we bring Boyle back. Maybe we go with Talbot or a cheaper UFA over Biron. Maybe we trade Staal, move MDZ back to the left side, and re-sign Stralman. If we are unable to buy out Richards, we can still make it work.

We have lots of flexibility next year and we have a lot of young players who can fill spots. We'll be fine.

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08-15-2013, 09:53 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Well... that's just flat out not true.
All you need to do is look at how goalies have won the Conn Smythe.

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08-15-2013, 09:54 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You are insinuating here that letting our best player, by far, walk is somehow going to put the team on the right path. When, in all likelihood, it will just lead to more of the same crap roster building without the team's best player in decades.

Unless Gorton is officially named GM, and the Rangers plan is to tear it all down (which it wont be), I don't understand this line of thinking.
The line of thinking I simply cannot buy into is 'let's not give Sather more cap room, because he'll just screw it up anyway'. If that's the case, why are we even bothering to discuss anything here.

Nothing needs to be torn down...but we do need better decisions from our GM.

While it needs to at least be mentioned that other teams have managed to win Stanley Cups with goaltenders not named Henrik Lundqvist (our teams playoff record with Hank in goal is a very mediocre 5-7), I am not advocating letting Hank walk...we have no choice now but to sign him.

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08-15-2013, 09:58 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
7.5, 8 or 8.5, it won't matter that much. 7 or 8 years, it won't matter that much. Yeah, every little bit counts, but we have a number of good young prospects knocking on the door. Why do we even need to bring in a guy like Vanek? If we still have a glaring need for a LW next year, we don't have to fill it with Vanek. We don't always need to go out and get the "best", most expensive player to fill a hole.

There will be cheaper options available, either in free agency or through trade.

Here's my projection for 2014:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.850m) / Derek Stepan ($3.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Derick Brassard ($4.500m) / Ryan Callahan ($5.500m)
Danny Kristo ($1.300m) / J.T. Miller ($1.244m) / Jesper Fasth ($0.900m)
Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael Del Zotto ($4.500m)
John Moore ($1.500m) / Dylan McIlrath ($1.295m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.000m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,507,500; BONUSES: $2,337,500
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $10,830,000

Yes, this includes 5 guys that will be either 1st or 2nd year players. But these are all players that are ready now or should be ready by 2014. We have a little over 10 mil left to sign 3 more players. Maybe we bring Boyle back. Maybe we go with Talbot or a cheaper UFA over Biron. Maybe we trade Staal, move MDZ back to the left side, and re-sign Stralman. If we are unable to buy out Richards, we can still make it work.

We have lots of flexibility next year and we have a lot of young players who can fill spots. We'll be fine.
I agree, Vanek was just a hypothetical big signing.. We just need someone to push down Kreider or Hags unless they take a big step. RW is pretty much set with Nash and Cally

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08-15-2013, 10:05 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
The line of thinking I simply cannot buy into is 'let's not give Sather more cap room, because he'll just screw it up anyway'. If that's the case, why are we even bothering to discuss anything here.

Nothing needs to be torn down...but we do need better decisions from our GM.

While it needs to at least be mentioned that other teams have managed to win Stanley Cups with goaltenders not named Henrik Lundqvist (our teams playoff record with Hank in goal is a very mediocre 5-7), I am not advocating letting Hank walk...we have no choice now but to sign him.
My point is there isn't a person in the world that could lose a top 3 goaltender in the league, take $8M in cap space, and make that team a champion. The fact that Glen Sather would screw it up more than most is irrelevant.

This problem of roster building is far deeper and more systemic than an expensive goaltender.

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08-15-2013, 10:30 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
My point is there isn't a person in the world that could lose a top 3 goaltender in the league, take $8M in cap space, and make that team a champion.
And the other side of this argument is that history tells us it does not take a top 3 goaltender in the league to win a championship in the first place.

Quote:
This problem of roster building is far deeper and more systemic than an expensive goaltender.
Of this we can agree. With or without Hank, $5 million or $10 million spent on goaltending, we will win nothing until the person making ultimate decisions is replaced. Should happen in about 15-20 years by all estimation.

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08-15-2013, 10:33 AM
  #110
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Considering Henriks intelligence(knowing he can't ask for the moon) and future family stability there is going to be a balancing act in establishing his final? contract. I can see three areas that will shape his contract. 1)His contract cannot subtract from the NYR's icing a competitive team. 2) most likely a ever increasing cap has to be taken into consideration 3) contractual compensation for being an elite player.

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08-15-2013, 10:36 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
And the other side of this argument is that history tells us it does not take a top 3 goaltender in the league to win a championship in the first place.
I think this is used far too much as a crutch to an argument that investment in an elite goaltender isn't needed.

First off, I think a sample size of 8 seasons is a bit small to be making such an assertion. Secondly, most of the goaltenders that did wind up winning cups certainly played like top 3 goaltenders for their run. So, I'll take my chances with an elite goaltender over the past 8 years to take me there, rather than hoping that my average goaltender gets hot/lucky.

Most importantly, all the teams that have won cups have had top 3 positional players - most of them have had multiple ones at various positions. If the Rangers showed me they had any plan at all to acquire such players, maybe I could buy into an argument to let Lundqvist walk. But the mere notion of this is so far removed, that I dont even think its worth thinking about.

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08-15-2013, 10:42 AM
  #112
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Letting Lundqvist walk is not an option. We do not have top positional players outside of D, but that isn't making us more goals. Like BRB, I think the Rangers need to acquire some top top players or start drafting really, really good. Sure Nash and Stepan are great and cool. But it isn't like we have Kane and Toews.

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08-15-2013, 10:59 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Sure Nash and Stepan are great and cool. But it isn't like we have Kane and Toews.
...which is sad, considering Nash has a much higher cap hit than both Kane and Toews.

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08-15-2013, 11:01 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
...which is sad, considering Nash has a much higher cap hit than both Kane and Toews.
Their deals cover mostly RFA years though.

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08-15-2013, 11:10 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Well... that's just flat out not true.
Really?

Thomas and Quick are the only two guys that could be considered elite level goalies.

The other guys that have won cups?

Niemi, Crawford, MA Fleury, Howard, Giguere and Ward

6 of 8 guys not elite.

and a Conn Smythe doesn't make you elite. It means you had a great PO run. Nothing more, nothing less.

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08-15-2013, 11:18 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
7.5, 8 or 8.5, it won't matter that much. 7 or 8 years, it won't matter that much. Yeah, every little bit counts, but we have a number of good young prospects knocking on the door. Why do we even need to bring in a guy like Vanek? If we still have a glaring need for a LW next year, we don't have to fill it with Vanek. We don't always need to go out and get the "best", most expensive player to fill a hole.

There will be cheaper options available, either in free agency or through trade.

Here's my projection for 2014:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.850m) / Derek Stepan ($3.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Derick Brassard ($4.500m) / Ryan Callahan ($5.500m)
Danny Kristo ($1.300m) / J.T. Miller ($1.244m) / Jesper Fasth ($0.900m)
Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Michael Del Zotto ($4.500m)
John Moore ($1.500m) / Dylan McIlrath ($1.295m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.000m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,507,500; BONUSES: $2,337,500
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $10,830,000

Yes, this includes 5 guys that will be either 1st or 2nd year players. But these are all players that are ready now or should be ready by 2014. We have a little over 10 mil left to sign 3 more players. Maybe we bring Boyle back. Maybe we go with Talbot or a cheaper UFA over Biron. Maybe we trade Staal, move MDZ back to the left side, and re-sign Stralman. If we are unable to buy out Richards, we can still make it work.

We have lots of flexibility next year and we have a lot of young players who can fill spots. We'll be fine.
Unless we see drastic offensive growth from Kreider, Hagelin, Miller we are going to be worse off offensively in 2014 than we have been in the last few years.

I'm not sure that we should be relying on those guys along with Kristo and Fast to provide secondary scoring at the NHL Level that we were not gettign from more established NHL players that were playing their position.

there's alot of reaching going on there.

Maybe Vanek isn't the guy, maybe you split that cap hit on Setoguchi and Downie. Or, if he makes it to UFA, you go after a younger guy like Kessel and shift Nash to LW

Until the younger guys show that theya re ready and capable of taking over a scoring role, I'm not sure we should pencil them in to those roles.

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08-15-2013, 11:18 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Really?

Thomas and Quick are the only two guys that could be considered elite level goalies.

The other guys that have won cups?

Niemi, Crawford, MA Fleury, Howard, Giguere and Ward

6 of 8 guys not elite.

and a Conn Smythe doesn't make you elite. It means you had a great PO run. Nothing more, nothing less.
Which just means that I'm right. Elite goalies have won Cups.

Also, a few of those guys are top 10 goalies in the league.

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08-15-2013, 11:24 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Really?

Thomas and Quick are the only two guys that could be considered elite level goalies.

The other guys that have won cups?

Niemi, Crawford, MA Fleury, Howard, Giguere and Ward

6 of 8 guys not elite.

and a Conn Smythe doesn't make you elite. It means you had a great PO run. Nothing more, nothing less.
If we had guys like Toews and Kane on this roster, I'd be much more inclined to try to get a hot playoff run out of an ordinary goaltender. We dont, and won't anytime soon. So, Im much more inclined to take my chances with a consistently great goaltender on the roster.

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08-15-2013, 11:28 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Which just means that I'm right. Elite goalies have won Cups.

Also, a few of those guys are top 10 goalies in the league.
Yes they have, but the trend is clear. You don't need a top flight goalie to win in the NHL.

And not one of those goalies was their teams highest paid or or best player.

If your goalie nowadays is your best and highest paid player, you can probably expect medicore amounts of success. Maybe a PO appearance here and there but beyond that, not much else.

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08-15-2013, 11:29 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If we had guys like Toews and Kane on this roster, I'd be much more inclined to try to get a hot playoff run out of an ordinary goaltender. We dont, and won't anytime soon. So, Im much more inclined to take my chances with a consistently great goaltender on the roster.
Hey, if you're happy with 2nd round exits, god bless you.

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08-15-2013, 11:33 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Yes they have, but the trend is clear. You don't need a top flight goalie to win in the NHL.

And not one of those goalies was their teams highest paid or or best player.

If your goalie nowadays is your best and highest paid player, you can probably expect medicore amounts of success. Maybe a PO appearance here and there but beyond that, not much else.
Lundqvist's cap hit is not inhibiting Sather from acquiring/developing elite players.

I think the point you're trying to make, which is basically a few million dollars is the difference between failure and success, is absolutely absurd.

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08-15-2013, 11:37 AM
  #122
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Hey, if you're happy with 2nd round exits, god bless you.
Give me a plan that doesnt include massive overreaches about getting elite positional players in here. Go ahead, Im waiting.

Let Lundqvist walk + more cap space = success isn't cutting it for me. In fact, its so stupid I can hardly wrap my head around it.

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08-15-2013, 11:55 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Yes they have, but the trend is clear. You don't need a top flight goalie to win in the NHL.

And not one of those goalies was their teams highest paid or or best player.

If your goalie nowadays is your best and highest paid player, you can probably expect medicore amounts of success. Maybe a PO appearance here and there but beyond that, not much else.
And Boston proved you don't need a forward superstar. There is no set formula to winning.

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08-15-2013, 12:00 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You are insinuating here that letting our best player, by far, walk is somehow going to put the team on the right path. When, in all likelihood, it will just lead to more of the same crap roster building without the team's best player in decades.

Unless Gorton is officially named GM, and the Rangers plan is to tear it all down (which it wont be), I don't understand this line of thinking.
Exactly! It makes no sense...

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08-15-2013, 12:12 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Give me a plan that doesnt include massive overreaches about getting elite positional players in here. Go ahead, Im waiting.

Let Lundqvist walk + more cap space = success isn't cutting it for me. In fact, its so stupid I can hardly wrap my head around it.
We let Hank walk - 6.875 off the books.
Buy out Richards - 6.66 off the books.
Cap increases 70 million.

Sign Kessel at 7 per

Sign Stepan long term at 4.5
Sign Girardi long term at 5.5
Sign Callahan long term at 5.25

Derek Stepan C $4,500,000.00
Rick Nash LW $7,800,000.00
Phil Kessel RW $7,000,000.00
Derick Brassard C $4,000,000.00
Ryan Callahan RW $5,250,000.00
Chris Kreider LW $1,500,000.00
Carl Hagelin LW $2,250,000.00
JT Miller C $1,250,000.00
Derek Dorsett RW $1,650,000.00
Mats Zuccarello RW $1,500,000.00
Oscar Lindberg C $760,000.00
Jasper Fast LW $900,000.00
Danny Kristo LW $1,500,000.00



Defenceman
Dan Girardi D $5,500,000.00
Ryan McDonagh D $4,700,000.00
Michael Del Zotto D $4,000,000.00
Marc Staal D $3,975,000.00
John Moore D $2,000,000.00
Dylan McIlrath D $1,300,000.00
Justin Falk D $1,250,000.00


Goalie
Corey Crawford G $5,500,000.00
Martin Biron G $1,500,000.00

All of these are doable.

Not much of a change to the team seeing as most here think we're OK up front and the lack of scoring was all systemic.

Kessel to much of a reach for you? take the 7 and split that amongst Setoguchi and Downie. Both are proven 20 goal guys with speed and fiestiness

Crawford has shown that while not an elite level goalie, he can and will make important saves.

Its my opinion and I don't care if anyone shares it.

The salary structure of the team with the goalie position taking upwards of 15% of the total cap number is going to be a hinderance to becoming a team capable of winning one Stanley Cup, let alone multiple cups

If your goalie is your best player night in and night out then you have a serious personel problem. That problem is compounded when that goalie is the teams highest paid player to boot.

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