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The Offseason Thread V: Needs to End Edition

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:14 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Plus, the only reason Tortorella tried to get Kreider to play a similar game to Hagelin is because Kreider looked like crap playing his own game.
Really?

Kreider hadn't played a second with the Rangers before Tortorella had already "typecast" Kreider as Hagelin.

Quote:
Rookie Chris Kreider, who joined the Rangers on Wednesday and was a healthy scratch Thursday night, had a Game 1 homework assignment: Keep your eye on No. 62.

"I was told to watch Carl Hagelin," Kreider said. "How he hounds pucks, the puck pursuit, the energy he brings to the game."
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...earn-1.3658140

It had nothing to do with Kreider's play. This was an issue from the moment Kreider left BC for the Rangers. Be like Carl Hagelin.

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08-15-2013, 01:14 PM
  #827
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i seem to remember that in the WJC he wasnt in front of the net, he was in the middle of the ice...they had someone else at the front of the net, had Kreider in the high slot, and 3 guys up high in an umbrella (Stepan, Carlsson, and someone else?)

thats just going off of memory, i could be wrong.

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08-15-2013, 01:16 PM
  #828
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If Haley ends up on this team, we have ALOT of injuries.

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:22 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Or, more likely to be accurate, CK never really had a chance to grow or fail.

Torts wanted to dominate all the players, including the fresh new golden boy.

So Emile Francis of him.

The chains are supposed to be off as of NOW. Let's talk about it after a coupla weeks.
Kreider was the first example we saw of Tortorella trying to play someone in the NHL who didn't deserve to be there. He wasn't given a chance to grow or fail? Bull. The guy was handed a roster spot, which is something that hasn't happened with one of our young players since the days of Jamie Lundmark. What he did was fail at what he was asked to be, which was an NHL player. I'm not saying anything about the future, because he wouldn't be the first player in history to struggle in his first full season as a pro. And in a couple of weeks, it won't change anything. If Kreider is ready to be an NHLer, he will be, whether we have Alain Vigneault as coach or if Tortorella was still here.

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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Really?

Kreider hadn't played a second with the Rangers before Tortorella had already "typecast" Kreider as Hagelin.



http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...earn-1.3658140

It had nothing to do with Kreider's play. This was an issue from the moment Kreider left BC for the Rangers. Be like Carl Hagelin.
And yet, Kreider wasn't an issue playing his own game in those playoffs, though, was he? That's because he was playing his own game and looked good doing it. Tortorella asked Kreider to watch Hagelin as a speedy player. To take tips from someone who has made it to the league. It's about being a pro, not about being typecast. The issue isn't that Kreider was being forced into someone else's game last season. The issue was that he sucked. He was awful. If he had looked good playing his own game, this never would've been an issue, just like it wasn't during that playoff run.

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
This just isn't true. Remember in the WJC when Kreider was used in front of the net?

Being a net front presence is good. Standing in front of the net on the PP is a waste of his skill. He has never done well there. When he scored his goals in CT "in front of the net", it was usually shots from the slot, not bang-in garbage goals.
Getting in front of the net. Around the net. At the side. In the crease. In the slot. Semantics. Kreider has excellent eye-hand coordination. Rebounds. Tips. Deflections. Quick stick.







Play starts at :18

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:35 PM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Really?

Kreider hadn't played a second with the Rangers before Tortorella had already "typecast" Kreider as Hagelin.



http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...earn-1.3658140

It had nothing to do with Kreider's play. This was an issue from the moment Kreider left BC for the Rangers. Be like Carl Hagelin.
Or, Torts realized that he and Hagelin both have the same attribute that makes them stand out from the pack, which is their speed. Hagelin knows how to use it and Kreider doesn't/didn't, so Kreider was told to watch the way Hags uses his wheels to his benefit. e.

Should Kreider not be told to use his speed to hound the puck like Hagelin does? The guy's production was laughable, he shouldn't have been told to get out there and keep failing to put up points.

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08-15-2013, 01:43 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Kreider was the first example we saw of Tortorella trying to play someone in the NHL who didn't deserve to be there. He wasn't given a chance to grow or fail? Bull. The guy was handed a roster spot, which is something that hasn't happened with one of our young players since the days of Jamie Lundmark. What he did was fail at what he was asked to be, which was an NHL player. I'm not saying anything about the future, because he wouldn't be the first player in history to struggle in his first full season as a pro. And in a couple of weeks, it won't change anything. If Kreider is ready to be an NHLer, he will be, whether we have Alain Vigneault as coach or if Tortorella was still here.



And yet, Kreider wasn't an issue playing his own game in those playoffs, though, was he? That's because he was playing his own game and looked good doing it. Tortorella asked Kreider to watch Hagelin as a speedy player. To take tips from someone who has made it to the league. It's about being a pro, not about being typecast. The issue isn't that Kreider was being forced into someone else's game last season. The issue was that he sucked. He was awful. If he had looked good playing his own game, this never would've been an issue, just like it wasn't during that playoff run.
Tortorella didn't like Kreider's game in the playoffs either.

Quote:
“He’s still young, a kid that came in and played some really good games and then was God awful in some games during the playoffs,” said Tortorella, who noted that Kreider has practiced “very well” this week. “He has the gift of skating, he’s a big strong kid.… To get on the ice, you’ve got to help yourself and help the team defensively. You can’t hurt them. And that makes me feel more comfortable to get him on the ice.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz2c435nY4g

That statement can be used for many players in the 2012.

Tortorella was never satisfied.

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08-15-2013, 01:44 PM
  #833
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His game? Kreider never got an opportunity to play his game. The 4th line is not his game.

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:45 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Or, Torts realized that he and Hagelin both have the same attribute that makes them stand out from the pack, which is their speed. Hagelin knows how to use it and Kreider doesn't/didn't, so Kreider was told to watch the way Hags uses his wheels to his benefit. e.

Should Kreider not be told to use his speed to hound the puck like Hagelin does? The guy's production was laughable, he shouldn't have been told to get out there and keep failing to put up points.
Every player is different.

Kreider had an opportunity in 2013? Put with players who can play. Boyle and Pyatt can't play. Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella. Kreider was always the first player to change. He was scared to make a mistake. You can't play that way.

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08-15-2013, 01:46 PM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
i seem to remember that in the WJC he wasnt in front of the net, he was in the middle of the ice...they had someone else at the front of the net, had Kreider in the high slot, and 3 guys up high in an umbrella (Stepan, Carlsson, and someone else?)

thats just going off of memory, i could be wrong.
It was there or in college, or both. I kind of forgot to be honest, I may be wrong which one. I do know he was tried out there though and it was just a waste.

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:47 PM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Getting in front of the net. Around the net. At the side. In the crease. In the slot. Semantics. Kreider has excellent eye-hand coordination. Rebounds. Tips. Deflections. Quick stick.







Play starts at :18
Agreed on that front. Getting to the net and playing at the net are different things. He's much more Rick Nash than Ryan Callahan.

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Old
08-15-2013, 01:54 PM
  #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Every player is different.

Kreider had an opportunity in 2013? Put with players who can play. Boyle and Pyatt can't play. Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella. Kreider was always the first player to change. He was scared to make a mistake. You can't play that way.
Yes, he had an opportunity in 2013. If he had played well, as an individual, with Boyle and Pyatt, he would've been promoted above that line. He sucked, so he wasn't.

Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella? What was his problem under Gernander then? He should have gone into 12-13 brimming with confidence. What happened? If he lost his confidence in the AHL before ever getting to Tortorella, then he never should've been handed the spot he was handed.

The entire team was playing scared to make mistakes. That's definitely on Tortorella. It's why I'm glad Tortorella is gone, but it doesn't have anything to do with Kreider specifically. Kreider didn't earn a spot on the team. He didn't earn the right to play with better players. He definitely played his way off it, though.

I need to mention, by the way, that I'm not down on Kreider at all. The way I look at it, that was what Ryan Callahan would've looked like if he spent a large portion of his first season as a pro in the NHL instead of in the AHL. Kreider is a kid. Just because he wasn't ready for the NHL in February doesn't mean he won't be in October.

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Old
08-15-2013, 02:30 PM
  #838
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The difference between 2013 and 2012 for Kreider is that in 2013, he was expected to play well defensively and away from the puck. He wasn't ready to do both that and contribute offensively at the same time. It was his first pro season. It's a big adjustment for any player.

There is no blame to throw around here. Kreider isn't a failed prospect because he wasn't ready. Torts didn't hurt his development by not playing him more. There was obviously a disconnect between what management wanted and what Torts was willing to do, but that's water under the bridge now.

Kreider improved as the season went on and he put up very good numbers in his last stint in the AHL. As he gets more comfortable and begins playing more instinctively rather than thinking so much, he'll get better and better.

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Old
08-15-2013, 02:37 PM
  #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Every player is different.

Kreider had an opportunity in 2013? Put with players who can play. Boyle and Pyatt can't play. Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella. Kreider was always the first player to change. He was scared to make a mistake. You can't play that way.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

No one expected Kreider to be productive on the 4th line. Showing a pulse most nights would've been a nice start.

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Old
08-15-2013, 02:39 PM
  #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Every player is different.

Kreider had an opportunity in 2013? Put with players who can play. Boyle and Pyatt can't play. Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella. Kreider was always the first player to change. He was scared to make a mistake. You can't play that way.
He wasn't handed a top-6 spot, but I don't consider that the only way of being given an opportunity. He wasn't very good in the A and he got NHL time - that's an opportunity. One that he didn't deserve IMO.

Kreider had a ton of confidence in the playoffs when he first came in under Torts and he had zero confidence in the AHL under someone else. Maybe the problem is the kid who's trying to put his game together, not the coach who has overseen the maturation of a lot of very good young players. Kreider looked apprehensive in both leagues with both coaches. Was he scared in the AHL too? After his performance in the NHL playoffs a few months before?

I think he's going to be a good player in time, but I don't think last year's play was Torts' fault, at least not primarily. Maybe he could have been more supportive of the kid, but giving him top 6 minutes when he shows he can't handle bottom 6 minutes isn't supportive to me. The team comes first. They were in the hunt until very late, and Torts rightfully put their success over the coddling of an individual player.

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08-15-2013, 02:43 PM
  #841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Every player is different.

Kreider had an opportunity in 2013? Put with players who can play. Boyle and Pyatt can't play. Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella. Kreider was always the first player to change. He was scared to make a mistake. You can't play that way.
More eloquent detail of my 'Torts got into Kreider's head', made him think about doing everything too much, f'd up his game.

Thank you. I rest my case.

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08-15-2013, 02:46 PM
  #842
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I don't understand this whole thing that Boyle can't play. He can play, just not offensively.

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Old
08-15-2013, 02:47 PM
  #843
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So the reason Kreider played significantly worse than Pyatt or Boyle is that he was playing with Pyatt and Boyle?

P.S. the forward he played most with was Richards.

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08-15-2013, 02:51 PM
  #844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Kreider was the first example we saw of Tortorella trying to play someone in the NHL who didn't deserve to be there. He wasn't given a chance to grow or fail? Bull. The guy was handed a roster spot, which is something that hasn't happened with one of our young players since the days of Jamie Lundmark. What he did was fail at what he was asked to be, which was an NHL player. I'm not saying anything about the future, because he wouldn't be the first player in history to struggle in his first full season as a pro. And in a couple of weeks, it won't change anything. If Kreider is ready to be an NHLer, he will be, whether we have Alain Vigneault as coach or if Tortorella was still here. ...
He was supposed to be given the best opportunity HERE, ASAP, fully aware he had minimal pro experience, and we gambled to put him in playoffs prior year, trip starting his ELC first year for just a few games.

IMO, he did not have enough of a full opportunity to fail, because of the coach.

Don''t believe that can really be objectively argued.

As to my comment "couple of weeks", my bad, I meant after we are into the season.

Until we have enough time to see Kreider prove me right, this will just be, like Billy Preston once said, 'go round in circles'.

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08-15-2013, 02:53 PM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
He was supposed to be given the best opportunity HERE, ASAP, fully aware he had minimal pro experience, and we gambled to put him in playoffs prior year, trip starting his ELC first year for just a few games.

IMO, he did not have enough of a full opportunity to fail, because of the coach.

Don''t believe that can really be objectively argued.

As to my comment "couple of weeks", my bad, I meant after we are into the season.

Until we have enough time to see Kreider prove me right, this will just be, like Billy Preston once said, 'go round in circles'.
I'd say, if anything, he didn't have a full opportunity to fail because of his lackluster play even in the AHL and the season being shortened by nearly half.

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08-15-2013, 02:55 PM
  #846
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P.S. the forward he played most with was Richards.
that says more about richards than kreider

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08-15-2013, 02:55 PM
  #847
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IMO, he did not have enough of a full opportunity to fail, because of the coach.
Then the amount that he failed was remarkable.

I have high hopes for Kreider, but this blame Torts for everything angle is getting more than mildly annoying. He had 1 goal and 1 assist in 19 AHL games right before the lockout ended. Clearly Torts didn't get a player firing on all cylinders.

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08-15-2013, 03:00 PM
  #848
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that says more about richards than kreider
How? We already knew Richards was playing like ****. Kreider didn't earn his TOI.

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08-15-2013, 03:04 PM
  #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Getting in front of the net. Around the net. At the side. In the crease. In the slot. Semantics. Kreider has excellent eye-hand coordination. Rebounds. Tips. Deflections. Quick stick.







Play starts at :18
yeah, i agree, i like the idea of Cally right in fornt of the net, and Kreider as more of a rover in the slot and moving around.

would make an excellent 2nd pp unit....

Brassard Cally and Kreider..

then do Stepan Nash and Richards or something like that on your first unit (Assuming Richards bounces back)

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08-15-2013, 03:12 PM
  #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Yes, he had an opportunity in 2013. If he had played well, as an individual, with Boyle and Pyatt, he would've been promoted above that line. He sucked, so he wasn't.

Kreider had zero confidence under Tortorella? What was his problem under Gernander then? He should have gone into 12-13 brimming with confidence. What happened? If he lost his confidence in the AHL before ever getting to Tortorella, then he never should've been handed the spot he was handed.

The entire team was playing scared to make mistakes. That's definitely on Tortorella. It's why I'm glad Tortorella is gone, but it doesn't have anything to do with Kreider specifically. Kreider didn't earn a spot on the team. He didn't earn the right to play with better players. He definitely played his way off it, though.

I need to mention, by the way, that I'm not down on Kreider at all. The way I look at it, that was what Ryan Callahan would've looked like if he spent a large portion of his first season as a pro in the NHL instead of in the AHL. Kreider is a kid. Just because he wasn't ready for the NHL in February doesn't mean he won't be in October.
I don't think you want to bring up an offensive oriented player's performance under Gernander as an argument against the player. I grant you, I was shocked that Kreider didn't pick up more points during that stretch simply due to physical domination - but Gernander's coaching is well established as ****ing poison to offensive creativity in young players.

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