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08-16-2013, 10:38 AM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
A whole 4 years huh? Must be an expert.
I can't say much cause I'm still a young man does 16 years (Am 18) make *meeeee* and expert?

But seriously. If people pay attention to the team closely and everything, they can get educated pretty good.

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08-16-2013, 10:41 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
I can't say much cause I'm still a young man does 16 years (Am 18) make *meeeee* and expert?

But seriously. If people pay attention to the team closely and everything, they can get educated pretty good.
People who have watched/played/studied/analyzed the game for 50 years still don't know everything

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08-16-2013, 10:46 AM
  #878
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I know. I never said we'd know everything. But if one follows closely enough I thin it's possible to get a good grasp on a good chunk of what happens, yeah?

Compared to the orgs I know nothing but maybe even a sliver. No one will ever really know everything as the game and semantics evolve.. or devolve with Buttman but... Yeah.

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08-16-2013, 10:56 AM
  #879
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There are people here who brag about watching the game for 40 years who I wouldn't trust more than some 2012 bandwagon fans.

I think the only constant is that we all overstate our own grasp of the game.

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08-16-2013, 10:59 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Hodgy OFWG View Post
the fact that you called him a mamaluke should validate nominating you for funniest poster
He who laughs last....

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08-16-2013, 10:59 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
There are people here who brag about watching the game for 40 years who I wouldn't trust more than some 2012 bandwagon fans.

I think the only constant is that we all overstate our own grasp of the game.
True.

But in regards to the youngins whose Ranger memories do not stretch before the lockout, I give this warning. Be careful about complaining about Tortorella or Renney's defensive structure. Its far, far better than no team structure at all.

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08-16-2013, 11:02 AM
  #882
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There are people here who brag about watching the game for 40 years who I wouldn't trust more than some 2012 bandwagon fans.

I think the only constant is that we all overstate our own grasp of the game.
Perhaps the most poignant statement I've read on HF!

The hubris flows through all of us.

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08-16-2013, 11:03 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I love how Bernie thinks his take on the situation is fact.
Everyone is generically entitled to their opinion.

Whether or not it is factual requires objective, in addition to or instead of subjective, elements.

Is there ANY amount of blame to go around? Sure.
Who was the one with authority who was responsible for the construct in which the player had to operate? Torts, almost exclusively.

Therefore CK only minimally at fault.

That's the fact, Jack.
like it or not.

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08-16-2013, 11:04 AM
  #884
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Ive never seen somebody use so many words that contain so little substance.

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08-16-2013, 11:05 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Seems to be the prevailing wisdom towards every current and former coach associated with the New York Rangers organization. Its pervasive among the fanbase.

...nahhh, could never be the player's fault.
Could be.
But then you gotta focus on the like of immature Avery for a clear cut example.

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08-16-2013, 11:05 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Perhaps the most poignant statement I've read on HF!

The hubris flows through all of us.
I should note that I don't include myself in that statement, of course. I am wicked smaht.

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08-16-2013, 11:06 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
gabs had no freedom, he was thrown out of his natural position and forced to play with boyle because he sucked on the LW and torts was too stubborn to admit that his little experiment went horribly wrong
Thank you.
I was being generous in saying to a lesser degree, but I concur with your memory it was virtually no freedom.

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08-16-2013, 11:12 AM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ive never seen somebody use so many words that contain so little substance.
We often disagree.
This usually requires one or both explaining the differences.
That's a lot of words, leave it to you to think there is "so little substance".

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08-16-2013, 11:13 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Everyone is generically entitled to their opinion.

Whether or not it is factual requires objective, in addition to or instead of subjective, elements.

Is there ANY amount of blame to go around? Sure.
Who was the one with authority who was responsible for the construct in which the player had to operate? Torts, almost exclusively.

Therefore CK only minimally at fault.

That's the fact, Jack.
like it or not.
Some people just have it set up so well with Ranger fans.

Kreider does well in playoffs: Kreider get all credit.
Kreider performs poorly: Tortorella, not Kreider, gets all blame.

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08-16-2013, 11:14 AM
  #890
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post

Therefore CK only minimally at fault.

Players control their own destiny's. If CK was flying all over the ice and creating scoring opportunities while playing responsible defense, he wouldn't have been bounced around.

Blaming Torts is just a crutch. Countless prospects have succeeded under Torts. He gives young players an opportunity. The players themselves determine their fate.

Isn't it ironic how often you find yourself trying to explain your logic, and failing miserably at it?

You've been hyping up Kreider so much that it's gotten to the point where people can't take your opinion on Kreider seriously anymore. Just a few months ago you were arguing with me how Kreider has more value than Stepan..

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08-16-2013, 11:15 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
So few words... only laughter... without thought, let alone profound thought.

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08-16-2013, 11:26 AM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
A whole 4 years huh? Must be an expert.
What a constructive way of continuing the discussion, tell me more!

I just wanted to lay it out that Kreider is seemingly given preferential treatment by parts of our fanbase that hasn't been extended to any of our other prospects.

What makes him so different?

He was a 1st round pick? McIlrath was a higher pick and doesn't get the same treatment. The same goes for Miller.

He impressed at the WJC? He was good, but not near the level of Stepan - who didn't get the same treatment.

I would LOVE for Kreider to develop into Erik Cole or Max Pacioretty, but we can't afford to force him into the lineup and hope he does. Chris got absolutely buried last year, and it was obvious to the eye as well as on the statsheet. Pacioretty went up and down for several years before he stuck - let Kreider figure out how to play with the pros and when he is ready he is ready and will force himself into the lineup like so many has done before him. Max had 17 goals and 32 points in 27 games for the Bulldogs at the time of his last ever call up at 22 years of age.

Let's see how he does in camp, hopefully he'll blow us all away!

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08-16-2013, 11:38 AM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Players control their own destiny's. If CK was flying all over the ice and creating scoring opportunities while playing responsible defense, he wouldn't have been bounced around.

Blaming Torts is just a crutch. Countless prospects have succeeded under Torts. He gives young players an opportunity. The players themselves determine their fate.

Isn't it ironic how often you find yourself trying to explain your logic, and failing miserably at it?

You've been hyping up Kreider so much that it's gotten to the point where people can't take your opinion on Kreider seriously anymore. Just a few months ago you were arguing with me how Kreider has more value than Stepan..
People complain about my verbosity, but the fact is you force my hand.

Quote:
... If CK was flying all over the ice and creating scoring opportunities while playing responsible defense, he wouldn't have been bounced around. ...
An erroneous opinion, which is less than assuming facts not in evidence.

CK was told to play a controlled game, ergo, he could not be flying all over the ice unless he wanted to defy the coach, and that is especially not a good idea for a rookie player under a control freak coach.

See, right there. That is how you are factually wrong, unless your position is CK was not so instructed and Torts was not a control freak.

Instead of mouthing off negatives to other people to try and make yourself look important or knowledgeable, before you see your arrogance bend, buckle and break on this one, consider being more supportive of freedom of speech of fellow posters who have a difference of opinion, saving me from the need for another dress down like this one which is not preferable and a distasteful last resort.


Quote:
Isn't it ironic how often you find yourself trying to explain your logic, and failing miserably at it?
I am not failing, at least most of the time.
It is a handful of critics like you who want to take your digs. Knock yourself out.
Occasionally I will have to make time with a counter post like this to correct the record.

Like when so many said it was IMPOSSIBLE for JT Miller to be called up, let alone for him to remain a number of weeks, even though that impacted his ELC status.
I am often more correct than you wish to give me credit for.

Even among my detractors, who say I am terrible at trade proposals, which I consider more a matter of perspective, and thus opinion, less fact based, I have been called otherwise a great poster.

Seems you just gotta go there

Quote:
You've been hyping up Kreider so much that it's gotten to the point where people can't take your opinion on Kreider seriously anymore.
Torts obviously slowed CK's status here. He will be, barring injury, most of what I hoped for/predicted, and a proverbial bag of chips to boot. He has already shown flashes of brilliance under handicapped circumstances. When Miller is ready, that will be a high speed line doing well, other combos are also good.

Quote:
Just a few months ago you were arguing with me how Kreider has more value than Stepan..
Immediately before Stepan stepped it up big time --- which I was glad to see as that spurt was somewhat overdue --- that is true.

I again don't recant what was said. Time will ultimately tell.
Clearly CK is way >>>>>>>>>>>> more physically gifted that DS, only better at experience, hockey smarts, and to certain degree vision for passing. Once the shackles are off and CK catches up, eventually that comment by me will ring true.

We shall see.

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08-16-2013, 11:42 AM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I agree Kreider would be well-utilized in front of the net.

What I disagree about is why he was ineffective last year. Did Torts misuse him? Possibly. Did Kreider show a flat-out unwillingless to engage and get into those tough areas last season? Absolutely.
Yeah, im not sure I see it the same way as you.

I saw him be tentative, not unwilling to engage...he looked scared to make a mistake, he tried to play everything super conservative...almost the anti-JT Miller who was WAY too aggressive for my liking.

it was kinda weird in that, Kreider would make a mistake and get benched for the rest of the game, Miller would make a mistake and get more ice time...it was tough to understand why each player was getting rewarded or reprimanded for doing basically the same thing, in fact, id say Miller played far worse than Kreider...but thats just me.

Regardless, I agree that Torts takes way too much of the blame for Kreider, and yet no credit at all for developing Stepan, McDonagh, Hagelin, Dubinsky, Anisimov, etc.

Torts was a very good coach, guys have to pay their dues...my only complaint is the way Kreider was handled WHEN COMPARED to the way Miller was handled...I feel like Miller was given way too long of a leash, and was often times abysmal out there.

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08-16-2013, 11:43 AM
  #895
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CK was told to play a controlled game, ergo, he could not be flying all over the ice unless he wanted to defy the coach, and that is especially not a good idea for a rookie player under a control freak coach.
As usual, I see a lot of words but no valid facts that contradict what I said.

But do me a favor and explain to me why guys like Hagelin succeeded under Torts, yet CK didn't. Hagelin's been flying all over the ice since his debut. Are you telling me that Torts, without reason, allowed a young guy like Hagelin to use his attributes but not CK? lolwut?


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08-16-2013, 11:46 AM
  #896
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In response to BBG, I think Hagelin thrived because he has a different style of play. Hags chases down the pucks and can zip around and get into the dirty areas and not flinch. Not be afraid, etc. While CK is pretty fast and athletic, he just didn't exert himself and did not use his skillset to the fullest extent. It does not seem like Hags and CK have the same sets.

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08-16-2013, 11:53 AM
  #897
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In response to BBG, I think Hagelin thrived because he has a different style of play. Hags chases down the pucks and can zip around and get into the dirty areas and not flinch. Not be afraid, etc. While CK is pretty fast and athletic, he just didn't exert himself and did not use his skillset to the fullest extent. It does not seem like Hags and CK have the same sets.
I don't see how that was Torts's fault.

As far as their styles of play, I don't see what your trying to suggest.

Chasing down pucks and zipping into dirty areas isn't a skill. Kreider has the wheels to zip around the ice. He also has the body-frame to get into those dirty areas, assuming he's willing.

Hagelin just skates his ass off every shift. Offensively and defensively. That's just hustle. Hard work. Kreider's capable of that. Every player is, to a certain degree.

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08-16-2013, 11:54 AM
  #898
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Yeah, im not sure I see it the same way as you.

I saw him be tentative, not unwilling to engage...he looked scared to make a mistake, he tried to play everything super conservative...almost the anti-JT Miller who was WAY too aggressive for my liking.

it was kinda weird in that, Kreider would make a mistake and get benched for the rest of the game, Miller would make a mistake and get more ice time...it was tough to understand why each player was getting rewarded or reprimanded for doing basically the same thing, in fact, id say Miller played far worse than Kreider...but thats just me.

Regardless, I agree that Torts takes way too much of the blame for Kreider, and yet no credit at all for developing Stepan, McDonagh, Hagelin, Dubinsky, Anisimov, etc.

Torts was a very good coach, guys have to pay their dues...my only complaint is the way Kreider was handled WHEN COMPARED to the way Miller was handled...I feel like Miller was given way too long of a leash, and was often times abysmal out there.
Its not rocket science. Tortorella, as with most coaches, are going to give more leeway when a mistake is made out of aggression. You say you think Kreider was tentative, but not unwilling to engage. Whats the difference? I also dont think Brooks Orpik knocking him into next week helped matters much either.

Bottom line is that Kreider played most of the season like he had a carton of eggs in his hockey pants. Thats unacceptable, period.

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08-16-2013, 11:56 AM
  #899
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Yeah, im not sure I see it the same way as you.

I saw him be tentative, not unwilling to engage...he looked scared to make a mistake, he tried to play everything super conservative...almost the anti-JT Miller who was WAY too aggressive for my liking.

it was kinda weird in that, Kreider would make a mistake and get benched for the rest of the game, Miller would make a mistake and get more ice time...it was tough to understand why each player was getting rewarded or reprimanded for doing basically the same thing, in fact, id say Miller played far worse than Kreider...but thats just me.

Regardless, I agree that Torts takes way too much of the blame for Kreider, and yet no credit at all for developing Stepan, McDonagh, Hagelin, Dubinsky, Anisimov, etc.

Torts was a very good coach, guys have to pay their dues...my only complaint is the way Kreider was handled WHEN COMPARED to the way Miller was handled...I feel like Miller was given way too long of a leash, and was often times abysmal out there.
Miller is very raw. But something I liked about his game was he was always engaging. He was always around the puck. He was always near the play. There were games last season where I asked myself if Kreider even played, because of his ability to become absolutely invisible on the ice. I didn't notice much of that with Miller.

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08-16-2013, 12:04 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I don't see how that was Torts's fault.

As far as their styles of play, I don't see what your trying to suggest.

Chasing down pucks and zipping into dirty areas isn't a skill. Kreider has the wheels to zip around the ice. He also has the body-frame to get into those dirty areas, assuming he's willing.

Hagelin just skates his ass off every shift. Offensively and defensively. That's just hustle. Hard work. Kreider's capable of that. Every player is, to a certain degree.
Never said it was the coach's fault. Please don't hurry up and make the assumption that I said it was.
Not every player can chase 'em down and get in there as good as the next guy. Carl is pretty good at it. The lines that Hagelin play on help that style of play I'm suggesting. Like he is the one to do it and such. Kreider sure does have the speed and athleticism to do that. But does he have mentality for it? We don't know. It seems like he is going to be a strong power-forward like player, and IMO he should be put in a role to crash and drive the net and get in front/take shots close in, rather than dump in and go after it like, say, Hagelin would do more because he 's slippery.

The one thing I do think is the coaching's fault is this; Torts and co. seemed to have set the same role for too many of the players and expected almost all of them to play that sort of grind it out game, when some players are not fit for it and on a line would produce and play more effectively when not playing that way. The fact that the players would be scared to engage, or do almost anything, save blocking shots and grinding with a side of jam, was bad.

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