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If Del Zotto is healthy, how many goals will he score in an offensive system?

View Poll Results: HEALTHY DEL ZOTTO..in AV's SYSTEM....how many goals?
0-2 6 5.13%
3-6 8 6.84%
7-8 19 16.24%
9 13 11.11%
10+ 71 60.68%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-16-2013, 06:41 PM
  #51
offdacrossbar
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with pp time he can net 10-12 goals. he will have a decent assist year as well with more pp time.

the more important question is how many goals will he allow. as john moore develops, im afraid mdz will see less time. i continue to like jm's overall game better than mdz's.

mikes still a horror show defensively on most nights. his skating in mud act doesnt play well against speedy top 6 forwards.

his best attribute continues to be his puck management and passing skills. he does pass the pill very well. the rest is just average.

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08-16-2013, 06:47 PM
  #52
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All of them.

Richards will have every assist.

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Old
08-16-2013, 07:08 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
with pp time he can net 10-12 goals. he will have a decent assist year as well with more pp time.

the more important question is how many goals will he allow. as john moore develops, im afraid mdz will see less time. i continue to like jm's overall game better than mdz's.

mikes still a horror show defensively on most nights. his skating in mud act doesnt play well against speedy top 6 forwards.

his best attribute continues to be his puck management and passing skills. he does pass the pill very well. the rest is just average.

As to the bolded, that just isn't true. He had some rough games down the stretch, when he was playing with a hernia. Before the injury, he was one of our best defensemen for the previous year and a half.

I reiterate my question about John Moore, however. SO many people either think he's arrived or think he will surpass Del Zotto as he "develops." They are the same age. Del Zotto has shown four years of regular development. What makes anyone think that Moore will suddenly surpass Del Zotto when MDZ has been the significantly better player for the entirety of their careers?

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08-16-2013, 07:32 PM
  #54
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No d on our team is a defensive liability on the ice. Gilroy, Bickel are the horror shows.

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08-16-2013, 07:33 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
As to the bolded, that just isn't true. He had some rough games down the stretch, when he was playing with a hernia. Before the injury, he was one of our best defensemen for the previous year and a half.

I reiterate my question about John Moore, however. SO many people either think he's arrived or think he will surpass Del Zotto as he "develops." They are the same age. Del Zotto has shown four years of regular development. What makes anyone think that Moore will suddenly surpass Del Zotto when MDZ has been the significantly better player for the entirety of their careers?
jm hasnt had the nhl games that mdz has. mike has had more key minutes.

some of us still believe mdz has serious holes in his game.

i happen to believe jm's game shows more upside. his skating is head and shoulders better and thats huge. imo, mdz doesnt process the game that well and his recovery ability is suspect. even though jm is still learning on the job, his overall game is better suited to a top 4 nhl defender.

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08-16-2013, 07:45 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
jm hasnt had the nhl games that mdz has. mike has had more key minutes.

some of us still believe mdz has serious holes in his game.

i happen to believe jm's game shows more upside. his skating is head and shoulders better and thats huge. imo, mdz doesnt process the game that well and his recovery ability is suspect. even though jm is still learning on the job, his overall game is better suited to a top 4 nhl defender.
Same age. Nowhere near the same results. You keep on talking as if Del Zotto is a finished product. He's 5 months older than Moore. Gilroy's skating is much better than MDZ's as well. Skating helps, but not if you don't have the instincts on O. To date, it is patently obvious that Del Zotto's offensive game is "head and shoulders" above Moore's, and considering what we need on D, that is huge.

Moore has had 100 NHL games. He has 14 points. He has 3 fricking goals. He isn't exactly likely to supplant Del Zotto with that production. You also bring up the difference in games played as if that is in Moore's favor. He couldn't crack the top 6 on Columbus. That's just sad.

I'm glad to have him on the 3rd pairing. He's light years better than the Gilroys, Hamrliks and Bickels of the world. But all he has shown thus far is that he can take care of the easiest minutes of a game (again, take a look--he got ridiculously protected minutes last year).

Once again, a group of folks on here rip on what we have because they want to praise what they think something COULD be. Shiny. New. Toy. Get over this syndrome, folks.

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08-16-2013, 08:33 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I reiterate my question about John Moore, however. SO many people either think he's arrived or think he will surpass Del Zotto as he "develops." They are the same age. Del Zotto has shown four years of regular development. What makes anyone think that Moore will suddenly surpass Del Zotto when MDZ has been the significantly better player for the entirety of their careers?
Well said. It's unbelievable how fickle people can be.

Moore gained confidence last year, and had some impressive games. I'm thrilled to have him as part of our core, he's going to be good. But his best as a Ranger hasn't even come close to what Del Zotto has shown he can bring consistently. MDZ is good defensively as well, this is a worse myth then Brad Richards being good in '11-'12.

Some of the things people say about Del Zotto's defensive game are just completely false and were never true. He's always had defensive fundamentals, even in junior, he just wasn't coached or developed to harness them at that age. He thinks the game well, and works hard, he just gets down on himself.

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Old
08-16-2013, 09:09 PM
  #58
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All the kid needs is some confidence. He seems to get rattled fairly easily. A gentler coach will probably help him a lot.

I'd say he gets a good 15-20 goals with 40-50 points.

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08-16-2013, 09:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
jm hasnt had the nhl games that mdz has. mike has had more key minutes.

some of us still believe mdz has serious holes in his game.

i happen to believe jm's game shows more upside. his skating is head and shoulders better and thats huge. imo, mdz doesnt process the game that well and his recovery ability is suspect. even though jm is still learning on the job, his overall game is better suited to a top 4 nhl defender.
The reason Moore doesn't have the amount of NHL games that MDZ does is because he didn't earn it when he was in Columbus. He's had his impressive games for the Rangers for sure, but he hasn't shown nearly as much as MDZ has.

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08-16-2013, 11:54 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
with pp time he can net 10-12 goals. he will have a decent assist year as well with more pp time.

the more important question is how many goals will he allow. as john moore develops, im afraid mdz will see less time. i continue to like jm's overall game better than mdz's.

mikes still a horror show defensively on most nights. his skating in mud act doesnt play well against speedy top 6 forwards.

his best attribute continues to be his puck management and passing skills. he does pass the pill very well. the rest is just average.
i just cant take anyone seriously who writes stuff like that.

MDZ is a horroshow defensively like 5 games a year, the rest hes either average or above average defensively...and about 5 games a year he's our best defenseman on the ice.

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08-17-2013, 01:17 AM
  #61
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compared to the top 3 defensemen of M-S-G and the defensively reliable guys of the bottom pairings in Moore and Stralman, Del Zotto will naturally SEEM like a disaster because everything bad that he does is a result of his "offensive game" and thereby making any mistake inherently a shortcoming of his game. No one mentions when Girardi almost scores on Henrik from behind the net with a stupid pass in that game against the Devils with Parise right there, or a similar spot with McDonagh. As soon as Del Zotto does anything wrong, it's Del Zaster. How naturally people attribute MDZ's lapses to his inherent lack of defensive understanding as opposed to making a mistake in a tight spot or otherwise is the reason why he's called Del Zaster. There's a Natural Del Zaster joke in there somewhere but I would have to contradict myself to make it.

We've had like 1.2 offensive defensemen in our lineup in the last 6 years or so. We haven't had anyone who could fit the bill to be our 50 points defensemen until MDZ came along. It's unnatural how critical people are of offensive defensemen when strictly evaluating their defensive game. Even other offensive defensemen in Subban and Karlsson can be a defensive mess in some games. There's a "McDonagh wouldn't have ****ed that up" mentality. If you're gonna be critical of MDZ and evaluate his defensive game to the standards of McDonagh and Staal, you're going to have a bad time.

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08-17-2013, 01:36 AM
  #62
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Leetch got the same criticism Del Zotto is getting now. Not saying the two are comparable, they played in different eras. Del Zotto is average to above average in his own end. Pairing him with Staal or McDonagh would help to stabilize his game a bit.

Leetch is the hall of famer and all time great because his hockey IQ is off the charts. His intelligence and understanding of the game is unparalleled. Del Zotto isn't quite there yet, but he has time. This is a big year for him.

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08-17-2013, 03:42 PM
  #63
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I think he will be traded.

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08-17-2013, 03:53 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
i just cant take anyone seriously who writes stuff like that.

MDZ is a horroshow defensively like 5 games a year, the rest hes either average or above average defensively...and about 5 games a year he's our best defenseman on the ice.
I, in turn, find it difficult to believe that anyone believes MDZ is ever the best D on the ice if McDonagh is dressed for the game.

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08-17-2013, 04:09 PM
  #65
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I think he will be traded.
Wouldn't surprise me either. Don't think it's going to happen right away though. Somewhat depends on how Staal returns and how Moore plays. Then on what they can get back for him.

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I, in turn, find it difficult to believe that anyone believes MDZ is ever the best D on the ice if McDonagh is dressed for the game.
Ditto.

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08-17-2013, 04:10 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I keep seeing people saying this. Please tell me, how has John Moore "emerged." He's played in 100 NHL games. He has 14 points. He's the same age as Del Zotto.

I like Moore, but he's got a LOT more to prove before we count on him as anything more than a 3rd pairing guy. Don't forget that he got very sheltered minutes last season. He's our #6 D right now, and there is a BIG gap between him and the top 4.
My opinion, faster, bigger, better shot

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08-17-2013, 04:24 PM
  #67
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I, in turn, find it difficult to believe that anyone believes MDZ is ever the best D on the ice if McDonagh is dressed for the game.
did you see the first few games when Staal went down? The first few games MDZ was our best defenseman.......it's not like McD had the most consistent year either.

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08-17-2013, 04:40 PM
  #68
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did you see the first few games when Staal went down? The first few games MDZ was our best defenseman.......it's not like McD had the most consistent year either.
McDonagh simply doesn't have bad games. He has less good games.

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08-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
All the kid needs is some confidence. He seems to get rattled fairly easily. A gentler coach will probably help him a lot.

I'd say he gets a good 15-20 goals with 40-50 points.
Put me down for the same.

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08-17-2013, 06:01 PM
  #70
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20 goals?

Maybe he's the top 6 LW we need!

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08-17-2013, 06:07 PM
  #71
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20 goals?
Bobby Orr Jr..... Well they both wore #4...

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08-17-2013, 06:37 PM
  #72
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This **** is getting ridiculous. August has driven people insane. 20 goals? Karlsson had 19 in what was a sensational Norris winning season. Alain Vigneault is not Dumbledore. The excitement for the season is building up and it's clearly entering into the calculus of posters when making such assessments. MDZ isn't one of those defensemen that gets half as many goals as assists. He gets one per 3+ assists. By that rate of 15-20 goals, he'll have a 15-45-60 to a 20-60-80 season which will almost guarantee a Norris nomination for the lower end of that spectrum and guarantee a Norris with the latter end. Karlsson ran away with the Norris with 19-59-78.

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08-17-2013, 06:50 PM
  #73
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Quote:
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McDonagh simply doesn't have bad games. He has less good games.
MDZ's game is not perpetually inferior to even McDonagh's "less good games"

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08-17-2013, 08:43 PM
  #74
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DZ is definitely a level below McDonagh as a defenseman. DZ's only advantage and it's not a big one is he's more of a offensively creative player. McDonagh--much better size, strength, positioning, skating in every aspect--forwards, backwards, laterally, hockey IQ. If given a choice between only having one of them I wouldn't hesitate a split second in taking McDonagh.

Del Zotto is a good player but he's not proven to be a top pairing guy and IMO it's not likely he's ever going to at least in New York. McDonagh eclipses him as does Staal on the left side. Girardi is a much much steadier presence on the right side and Stralman as well is better on the right side. IMO the best game DZ played last year was the one in which he clocked Neal with the backward flying elbow.

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08-17-2013, 09:16 PM
  #75
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Quote:
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McDonagh simply doesn't have bad games. He has less good games.
Agree with this. He's made some errors, but they're few and far in between. He's about as "perfect" a defensive player as you'll find in this league.

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