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If Del Zotto is healthy, how many goals will he score in an offensive system?

View Poll Results: HEALTHY DEL ZOTTO..in AV's SYSTEM....how many goals?
0-2 6 5.13%
3-6 8 6.84%
7-8 19 16.24%
9 13 11.11%
10+ 71 60.68%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-17-2013, 09:27 PM
  #76
offdacrossbar
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Mcd and Moore are both great skaters. Mdz isn't.

Staal, stral and girardi are all excellent 2 way defenders. Mdz isn't.

Del Zotto is a solid 3rd pair guy on this team. He isn't terrible. He's an offensively talented d man who is an average skater and who should not be matched up against big strong fast forwards.

What's he's not is simple. He's not head and shoulders better than any of those other 5 above.

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08-17-2013, 09:36 PM
  #77
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08-17-2013, 10:07 PM
  #78
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Just laughed out loud at the notion that Anton Stralman is a better two-way defenseman then MDZ.

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08-18-2013, 01:15 AM
  #79
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I look to the contract Sather gave them off ELCs. McDonagh got the long term deal. He is better overall AND has offensive upside. I don't think Del Zotto can come close to the type of player Mac is on defense, but McDonagh can come close to DZ on offense and production.

Is Del Zotto a top 4 player? Absolutely. I don't know about top pairing though. Needs to show something this season to say he is overall getting better and can play those top minutes. He still gets around 4th-5th on ES minutes. Stralman was getting more ES minutes at times.

Something I am happy about is that in the past years we looked at the 5th-7th D as a weak part of the team. Now, we have youth and depth in those spots. Moore, Stralman, Falk, and McIlrath are young and/or solid players. Some nights DZ falls to the bottom pairing and these guys can play top 4 (Moore and Stralman). Guys who can skate a make decent plays. It is nice to have multiple players we can say can step up and be big pieces that are young and promising.

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08-18-2013, 01:59 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
DZ is definitely a level below McDonagh as a defenseman. DZ's only advantage and it's not a big one is he's more of a offensively creative player. McDonagh--much better size, strength, positioning, skating in every aspect--forwards, backwards, laterally, hockey IQ. If given a choice between only having one of them I wouldn't hesitate a split second in taking McDonagh.

Del Zotto is a good player but he's not proven to be a top pairing guy and IMO it's not likely he's ever going to at least in New York. McDonagh eclipses him as does Staal on the left side. Girardi is a much much steadier presence on the right side and Stralman as well is better on the right side. IMO the best game DZ played last year was the one in which he clocked Neal with the backward flying elbow.
While I disagree that McDonagh has never has a bad game, I completely agree that he is the better player now and going forward. That said, while I love Staal, Del Zotto at 23 is better than Staal was at the same age. I don't see any realistic scenario in which the Rangers move Del Zotto, particularly when you factor Staal's injury concerns into the equation. I also don't see any threat to MDZ's place on the team from John Moore. I'm no mind reader, but I can easily imagine the Rangers FO picturing a pair of first pairings-- MDZ/McIlrath and McD/Girardi. I think they've been thinking about that MDZ/McIlrath pair ever since they drafted McI.

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08-18-2013, 02:03 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
Mcd and Moore are both great skaters. Mdz isn't.

Staal, stral and girardi are all excellent 2 way defenders. Mdz isn't.

Del Zotto is a solid 3rd pair guy on this team. He isn't terrible. He's an offensively talented d man who is an average skater and who should not be matched up against big strong fast forwards.

What's he's not is simple. He's not head and shoulders better than any of those other 5 above.
Del Zotto was our #4 last season, and there was a considerable gap between him and the bottom pair. Moore, Stralman and the spare part collection all received protected minutes. Del Zotto did not. He is absolutely head and shoulders ahead of Stralman and Moore.

That said, he is also clearly behind the other three guys in the top 4. I don't see him ever eclipsing McDonagh, but if you look at where Staal and Girardi were at 23 years of age, you might notice that 23 year old Del Zotto stacks up pretty favorably against 23 year old Staal/Girardi. Development is a process. He's been developing every year. You just don't want to see it.

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08-18-2013, 02:57 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
Just laughed out loud at the notion that Anton Stralman is a better two-way defenseman then MDZ.
I did the same

Stralman is now the excellent two way guy while dz is the measly third pairing defender who for whatever reason plays good defense on a nightly basis playing 20+ minutes...

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08-18-2013, 08:47 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
While I disagree that McDonagh has never has a bad game, I completely agree that he is the better player now and going forward. That said, while I love Staal, Del Zotto at 23 is better than Staal was at the same age. I don't see any realistic scenario in which the Rangers move Del Zotto, particularly when you factor Staal's injury concerns into the equation. I also don't see any threat to MDZ's place on the team from John Moore. I'm no mind reader, but I can easily imagine the Rangers FO picturing a pair of first pairings-- MDZ/McIlrath and McD/Girardi. I think they've been thinking about that MDZ/McIlrath pair ever since they drafted McI.
The only thing that DZ has an advantage over Staal is offensive production. At 23 he doesn't match Staal at 23 either. And he's not going to get to top pairing as long as either McDonagh or Staal are around and healthy. Staal at 23 was very good in his own end. You have to think about who some of these D are lining up against. Del Zotto doesn't get to see much of Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Tavares, Eric Staal, Kovalchuk. It's guys like Marc Staal, McDonagh and Girardi that face them. They have the size, the strength, the skating (or enough of it in Girardi's case), the defensive aptitude to shut those players down with the help of Lundqvist. Del Zotto's defense isn't bad but it's not great and he's sheltered from playing against the best.

As for the future I don't know. I think someone from the left side D is getting moved this year--one player that's not going to be is McDonagh. Staal would deservedly bring back a much larger package than MDZ. Moore may need more sheltered minutes as well but he's a much better skater and a stronger player than MDZ. I don't see the Rangers moving him until they know exactly what they have. DZ needs to start putting up more offense. That is really his bread and butter and if he is to solidify his spot on the team he needs to get to 50 points anyway. Hearing how he's improving all the time but from his rookie season--37 points to his best season in 11-12--41 points is not much. This is the part of his game where he has the potential to stand out from the rest to the Rangers D corps and he needs to start doing it.

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08-18-2013, 09:20 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
Mcd and Moore are both great skaters. Mdz isn't.

Staal, stral and girardi are all excellent 2 way defenders. Mdz isn't.

Del Zotto is a solid 3rd pair guy on this team. He isn't terrible. He's an offensively talented d man who is an average skater and who should not be matched up against big strong fast forwards.

What's he's not is simple. He's not head and shoulders better than any of those other 5 above.
You mean a third pairing D man with offensive talent who's going to either play with our worst offensive guys or best defensive guys so will generate no offense?

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08-18-2013, 09:48 AM
  #85
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One thing about him I've noticed he tends to wear down by the time the playoffs come, he needs better conditioning, also his hip is his weak spot, he needs to protect it more if possible

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08-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #86
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...while I love Staal, Del Zotto at 23 is better than Staal was at the same age...
This one of the single most inaccurate statements ever posted here.

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08-18-2013, 10:36 AM
  #87
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This one of the single most inaccurate statements ever posted here.
Wow, that statement is laughable, there's no comparison

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08-18-2013, 10:37 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
While I disagree that McDonagh has never has a bad game, I completely agree that he is the better player now and going forward. That said, while I love Staal, Del Zotto at 23 is better than Staal was at the same age. I don't see any realistic scenario in which the Rangers move Del Zotto, particularly when you factor Staal's injury concerns into the equation. I also don't see any threat to MDZ's place on the team from John Moore. I'm no mind reader, but I can easily imagine the Rangers FO picturing a pair of first pairings-- MDZ/McIlrath and McD/Girardi. I think they've been thinking about that MDZ/McIlrath pair ever since they drafted McI.
Marc Staal was selected to the All-Star team when he was 23. Del Zotto is not better than him at the same age.

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08-18-2013, 12:12 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
The only thing that DZ has an advantage over Staal is offensive production. At 23 he doesn't match Staal at 23 either. And he's not going to get to top pairing as long as either McDonagh or Staal are around and healthy. Staal at 23 was very good in his own end. You have to think about who some of these D are lining up against. Del Zotto doesn't get to see much of Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Tavares, Eric Staal, Kovalchuk. It's guys like Marc Staal, McDonagh and Girardi that face them. They have the size, the strength, the skating (or enough of it in Girardi's case), the defensive aptitude to shut those players down with the help of Lundqvist. Del Zotto's defense isn't bad but it's not great and he's sheltered from playing against the best.
Revisionist memory on Staal. During Staal's 22/23 year old season, he was focusing on adding an offensive side to his game. As a result, his defensive play suffered. People on this board were up in arms about it, saying he had regressed or that he needed to stop trying to jump into the attack. Del Zotto has done far more by 23 to become a complete defenseman than Staal did by the same age. Will MDZ ever be the shut down D that Staal/Girardi are? I highly doubt it, but a guy who is above average on the defensive side while being exceptional on the attacking side is a more valuable player.

Quote:
As for the future I don't know. I think someone from the left side D is getting moved this year--one player that's not going to be is McDonagh. Staal would deservedly bring back a much larger package than MDZ. Moore may need more sheltered minutes as well but he's a much better skater and a stronger player than MDZ. I don't see the Rangers moving him until they know exactly what they have. DZ needs to start putting up more offense. That is really his bread and butter and if he is to solidify his spot on the team he needs to get to 50 points anyway. Hearing how he's improving all the time but from his rookie season--37 points to his best season in 11-12--41 points is not much. This is the part of his game where he has the potential to stand out from the rest to the Rangers D corps and he needs to start doing it.
Again, Moore and Del Zotto are the same age. Assuming that one will jump forward while the other is a finished product is just odd. As for the improvement you keep "hearing about", it's easy to see if you watch the games from year to year.

Rookie MDZ was given such sheltered minutes that he would have needed a GPS to find his own zone. He was a kid, so they told him to just play an offensive game and not worry about the rest. The result was a decent point total and a hideous +/-.

2nd year MDZ wasn't quite as sheltered, and he didn't seem prepared for it. He was sent down as a wake up call. He was focusing on defense, but couldn't seem to bring those new responsibilities together with his offense.

Offseason--the wake up call seemed to work. Because of injury, MDZ didn't really get much time in the AHL. He DID go do Gary Roberts' conditioning camp and work on his skating though.

3rd year MDZ was still receiving sheltered minutes, but not nearly as sheltered as his rookie year. He responded by putting up career highs in points while also showing marked improvement in his defensive game.

4th year MDZ wasn't sheltered. He WAS getting some of the hard minutes against the top guys. His offense slipped a little bit, but that is to be expected from a 22 year old playing real minutes for the first time (especially when playing 1/3 of the season with a hernia).

Each year he has showed solid progression. Development isn't just about the stat line. I never in a million years would have believed that the guy we saw four years ago would be a (slightly) above average player in his own end. That's what he's done. I'm excited to see what he does in the next couple of seasons. Now that he knows how to defend, he can focus on building on his attacking instincts.

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08-18-2013, 12:20 PM
  #90
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One thing about him I've noticed he tends to wear down by the time the playoffs come, he needs better conditioning, also his hip is his weak spot, he needs to protect it more if possible
He didn't wear down, and his conditioning is quite good. He had a hernia.

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This one of the single most inaccurate statements ever posted here.
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Marc Staal was selected to the All-Star team when he was 23. Del Zotto is not better than him at the same age.
No, Staal was selected to the All-Star team when he was 24. Two years older than Del Zotto was last season (MDZ was 22 last season). Staal's 22/23 year old seasons were his 08/09 and 09/10 seasons where he was trying to add offense and his defense suffered as a result. Seriously, were you guys around during those seasons? Staal didn't really become the Staal we know until about halfway through 09/10. He didn't really start adding offense until last year. Don't revise history just because it suits you. Staal is one of my favorite Rangers, but he didn't pop onto the ice as a finished/fully developed player. He had his struggles. The only one of our D that didn't have a lengthy development curve has been McDonagh--that's what makes McD so impressive to me.

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08-18-2013, 12:31 PM
  #91
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Revisionist memory on Staal. During Staal's 22/23 year old season, he was focusing on adding an offensive side to his game. As a result, his defensive play suffered. People on this board were up in arms about it, saying he had regressed or that he needed to stop trying to jump into the attack. Del Zotto has done far more by 23 to become a complete defenseman than Staal did by the same age. Will MDZ ever be the shut down D that Staal/Girardi are? I highly doubt it, but a guy who is above average on the defensive side while being exceptional on the attacking side is a more valuable player.



Again, Moore and Del Zotto are the same age. Assuming that one will jump forward while the other is a finished product is just odd. As for the improvement you keep "hearing about", it's easy to see if you watch the games from year to year.

Rookie MDZ was given such sheltered minutes that he would have needed a GPS to find his own zone. He was a kid, so they told him to just play an offensive game and not worry about the rest. The result was a decent point total and a hideous +/-.

2nd year MDZ wasn't quite as sheltered, and he didn't seem prepared for it. He was sent down as a wake up call. He was focusing on defense, but couldn't seem to bring those new responsibilities together with his offense.

Offseason--the wake up call seemed to work. Because of injury, MDZ didn't really get much time in the AHL. He DID go do Gary Roberts' conditioning camp and work on his skating though.

3rd year MDZ was still receiving sheltered minutes, but not nearly as sheltered as his rookie year. He responded by putting up career highs in points while also showing marked improvement in his defensive game.

4th year MDZ wasn't sheltered. He WAS getting some of the hard minutes against the top guys. His offense slipped a little bit, but that is to be expected from a 22 year old playing real minutes for the first time (especially when playing 1/3 of the season with a hernia).

Each year he has showed solid progression. Development isn't just about the stat line. I never in a million years would have believed that the guy we saw four years ago would be a (slightly) above average player in his own end. That's what he's done. I'm excited to see what he does in the next couple of seasons. Now that he knows how to defend, he can focus on building on his attacking instincts.

There have been games where he's been benched, or played under 20, but in the last for years Del Zotto has been playing a top 4 role since his rookie year. In his second season, he looked out of place, and looked tired towards the end of the first.

The word sheltered; to me, reflects how Matt Gilroy was deployed, and not most definitely not Del Zotto.

I think Michael hits 12-16 goals for the season, and starts skating the puck up the ice a lot more, as in creating a rush then he did under Torts. In a contract year, and with all the talk around him, I expect DZ to step up and deliver.

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08-18-2013, 12:40 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Revisionist memory on Staal. During Staal's 22/23 year old season, he was focusing on adding an offensive side to his game. As a result, his defensive play suffered. People on this board were up in arms about it, saying he had regressed or that he needed to stop trying to jump into the attack. Del Zotto has done far more by 23 to become a complete defenseman than Staal did by the same age. Will MDZ ever be the shut down D that Staal/Girardi are? I highly doubt it, but a guy who is above average on the defensive side while being exceptional on the attacking side is a more valuable player.



Again, Moore and Del Zotto are the same age. Assuming that one will jump forward while the other is a finished product is just odd. As for the improvement you keep "hearing about", it's easy to see if you watch the games from year to year.

Rookie MDZ was given such sheltered minutes that he would have needed a GPS to find his own zone. He was a kid, so they told him to just play an offensive game and not worry about the rest. The result was a decent point total and a hideous +/-.

2nd year MDZ wasn't quite as sheltered, and he didn't seem prepared for it. He was sent down as a wake up call. He was focusing on defense, but couldn't seem to bring those new responsibilities together with his offense.

Offseason--the wake up call seemed to work. Because of injury, MDZ didn't really get much time in the AHL. He DID go do Gary Roberts' conditioning camp and work on his skating though.

3rd year MDZ was still receiving sheltered minutes, but not nearly as sheltered as his rookie year. He responded by putting up career highs in points while also showing marked improvement in his defensive game.

4th year MDZ wasn't sheltered. He WAS getting some of the hard minutes against the top guys. His offense slipped a little bit, but that is to be expected from a 22 year old playing real minutes for the first time (especially when playing 1/3 of the season with a hernia).

Each year he has showed solid progression. Development isn't just about the stat line. I never in a million years would have believed that the guy we saw four years ago would be a (slightly) above average player in his own end. That's what he's done. I'm excited to see what he does in the next couple of seasons. Now that he knows how to defend, he can focus on building on his attacking instincts.
Not quite--no matter how you want to parse it--McDonagh, Staal, Girardi get the assignments against the better players. Stralman is the 2nd pair right D. Del Zotto's moved up a bit in the pecking order when Marc has been out. Marc has been a top notch shutdown d-man for several years now and arguably would be the Rangers best d-man if it weren't for a couple of unfortunate injuries. DZ's defense is at best slightly above average. He's good enough to pk some. Again his strength--offensive creativity is what he needs to accentuate to legitimize himself as a top 4 NHL defenseman. 40 point years are pretty good for most defensemen but not enough to equal what the Rangers top three d-men are doing. He needs to get to a higher plateau.

To look at the Rangers top 6 in another way DZ is the smallest of the regulars--maybe the slowest--it's him or Girardi--the weakest strength wise. What makes some see upside with Moore vis-a-vis DZ is a bigger, stronger, better skating, more effortless ability to--as Brad Park use to say 'play the man'. DZ sometimes looks like he's working way to hard. Personally I'm not convinced that Moore has all that much offensive ability as some of our thinking he might. But I do see him at least somewhat as a McDonagh clone. Back to Del Zotto--he's not the guy I want on the ice in the last minute of a game we're leading by a goal. Not the guy that should be out there regularly getting schooled by Crosby, Tavares or Malkin.

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08-18-2013, 02:18 PM
  #93
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I'd almost rather DelZ put some snarl in his game than anything else. He seems to have a bit of it already... I'd like to see more.

Hopefully he can do that and make some passes that aren't of the "Home Run" variety. Smart, crisp passes... not throw and hope. Passes that open up ice instead of forcing the receiver to do something once it's on his tape.

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08-18-2013, 02:31 PM
  #94
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He needs to be smart and confident on a regular basis. When he's on his game he's physical, good defensively, great offensively, and has an edge. Take some cues from McDonagh.

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08-18-2013, 02:37 PM
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He didn't wear down, and his conditioning is quite good. He had a hernia.





No, Staal was selected to the All-Star team when he was 24. Two years older than Del Zotto was last season (MDZ was 22 last season). Staal's 22/23 year old seasons were his 08/09 and 09/10 seasons where he was trying to add offense and his defense suffered as a result. Seriously, were you guys around during those seasons? Staal didn't really become the Staal we know until about halfway through 09/10. He didn't really start adding offense until last year. Don't revise history just because it suits you. Staal is one of my favorite Rangers, but he didn't pop onto the ice as a finished/fully developed player. He had his struggles. The only one of our D that didn't have a lengthy development curve has been McDonagh--that's what makes McD so impressive to me.
What about the year before, besides when they need to up his minutes , do to an injury, he wears down

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08-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #96
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We have 4 LHD in top 6. Who plays on right side?

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08-18-2013, 03:38 PM
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No, Staal was selected to the All-Star team when he was 24. Two years older than Del Zotto was last season (MDZ was 22 last season). Staal's 22/23 year old seasons were his 08/09 and 09/10 seasons where he was trying to add offense and his defense suffered as a result. Seriously, were you guys around during those seasons? Staal didn't really become the Staal we know until about halfway through 09/10. He didn't really start adding offense until last year. Don't revise history just because it suits you. Staal is one of my favorite Rangers, but he didn't pop onto the ice as a finished/fully developed player. He had his struggles. The only one of our D that didn't have a lengthy development curve has been McDonagh--that's what makes McD so impressive to me.
Staal was selected to the All-Star Game when he was 23. He played in the All-Star Game when he was 24. He had a birthday in between. Technically, two days before he turned 24. The point is, the selection was based on his work as a 23 year old.

The McDonagh point is funny to me. The guy became a top pairing caliber defenseman in the NHL 5 years after he was drafted. So did Marc Staal. Just because we saw all of Staal's development and missed McDonagh's while he was at Wisconsin and a prospect for a different organization doesn't mean that McDonagh didn't need as much development. Let's not forget that there was a team very down on the guy at one point.

I like Del Zotto and I'm not down on him in any way. But right now, he's a 2nd pairing defenseman. That's just what he is. Could he progress into another level to his game? Of course he can. But until he does, he is what he is.

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08-18-2013, 04:04 PM
  #98
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MDZ's game is not perpetually inferior to even McDonagh's "less good games"
I find it amazing that some do not understand just how good McDonagh is.

I have seen a handful of Rangers defensemen who were better in 50 years.

Barring injury, I believe he will end up the 3rd best in that time span.

If Staal ever recovers fully, he too will be in the discussion.

MDZ may end up in that grouping because no one knows how someone at his age will end up, but so far, he is not even in the discussion, and MDZ has shown games of inept D, something McD and Staal have never displayed.

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08-18-2013, 04:15 PM
  #99
BlueshirtBlitz
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50 points.

Let's say 10 goals because why not?

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08-18-2013, 04:23 PM
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Nyrfan25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I find it amazing that some do not understand just how good McDonagh is.

I have seen a handful of Rangers defensemen who were better in 50 years.

Barring injury, I believe he will end up the 3rd best in that time span.

If Staal ever recovers fully, he too will be in the discussion.

MDZ may end up in that grouping because no one knows how someone at his age will end up, but so far, he is not even in the discussion, and MDZ has shown games of inept D, something McD and Staal have never displayed.
Howell
Park
Greschner
Patrick
Leetch
Ruotsalainen
Beukeboom
Maloney
Lowe
Beck
Neilson
Vadnais

3rd best ? Maybe when he is done but right now ?
He has some climbing to get top 10.
He is not passing Leetch, Park, Howell or Patrick all that easily.


Last edited by Nyrfan25: 08-18-2013 at 04:31 PM.
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