HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

If Del Zotto is healthy, how many goals will he score in an offensive system?

View Poll Results: HEALTHY DEL ZOTTO..in AV's SYSTEM....how many goals?
0-2 6 5.17%
3-6 8 6.90%
7-8 19 16.38%
9 13 11.21%
10+ 70 60.34%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-18-2013, 04:40 PM
  #101
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrfan25 View Post
Howell
Park
Greschner
Patrick
Leetch
Ruotsalainen
Beukeboom
Maloney
Lowe

3rd best ? Maybe when he is done but right now ?
He has some climbing to get top 10.
He is not passing Leetch, Park, Howell or Patrick all that easily.
I've seen the entire careers of all these guys except for Howell. McDonagh looks to me to easily rank above Greschner, Patrick, Ruotsolainen, Beukeboom, Maloney and Lowe unless you want to count his time as an Oiler. You might want to move Barry Beck into the mix though. I'd rank Staal ahead of most of this list as well.

James Patrick was a very good player but he never really became a top NHL defenseman. IMO he was more of a heady skill player and not very physical and to be honest getting Steve Larmer for him was a good deal for the Rangers. Ruotsolainen was an offensive force but very small and not great defensively. Best comparable here to DZ though Reijo was smaller but a better skater and quite a bit more creative.

eco's bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2013, 04:43 PM
  #102
PromNite
Cloud Strife
 
PromNite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tampa, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,150
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to PromNite
Offensive system? People are gonna be very surprised how this team plays this season

__________________


Adam Tensta's from the 163
PromNite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2013, 04:45 PM
  #103
Nyrfan25
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Saratoga Springs
Country: United States
Posts: 61
vCash: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
I've seen the entire careers of all these guys except for Howell. McDonagh looks to me to easily rank above Greschner, Patrick, Ruotsolainen, Beukeboom, Maloney and Lowe unless you want to count his time as an Oiler. You might want to move Barry Beck into the mix though. I'd rank Staal ahead of most of this list as well.

James Patrick was a very good player but he never really became a top NHL defenseman. IMO he was more of a heady skill player and not very physical and to be honest getting Steve Larmer for him was a good deal for the Rangers. Ruotsolainen was an offensive force but very small and not great defensively. Best comparable here to DZ though Reijo was smaller but a better skater and quite a bit more creative.

Forgot Beck, add him as well.

I saw them all play and over their career they did much more than McD has so far, he has the skill to over take many of them but having the skill is not doing it.
As far as individual skills they were each very good in their own ways, comparing the over-all player is hard to do, so I am not going to get into the offense vs defense debate.

Nyrfan25 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2013, 07:02 PM
  #104
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrfan25 View Post
Forgot Beck, add him as well.

I saw them all play and over their career they did much more than McD has so far, he has the skill to over take many of them but having the skill is not doing it.
As far as individual skills they were each very good in their own ways, comparing the over-all player is hard to do, so I am not going to get into the offense vs defense debate.
McDonagh is pretty much at the beginning of his career and as Chosen remarked aptly--he doesn't have bad games--he has less good games at worst. He hasn't built the legacy though the other players have. One can project that even if he doesn't get any better he's going to be a hell of a player--barring major injury. If I had to choose most valuable Rangers players at this point in time--Lundqvist would come first and McDonagh next.

eco's bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2013, 07:05 PM
  #105
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 16,287
vCash: 500
McD is still real young career wise. He has a while to go before he makes legacies... But he is gonna be a hell of a player. He already is. But still.

Silence Of The Plams is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2013, 09:04 PM
  #106
Nyrfan25
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Saratoga Springs
Country: United States
Posts: 61
vCash: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
McDonagh is pretty much at the beginning of his career and as Chosen remarked aptly--he doesn't have bad games--he has less good games at worst. He hasn't built the legacy though the other players have. One can project that even if he doesn't get any better he's going to be a hell of a player--barring major injury. If I had to choose most valuable Rangers players at this point in time--Lundqvist would come first and McDonagh next.
I would still argue for Staal but anyway I agree with what you're saying and LOVE McD and what I think he will become.
If he stays the same he will climb Ranger greats from the past let alone if he improves.

Also Del Zotto has a chance to also pass some Ranger defensemen from the past.

Nyrfan25 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-18-2013, 09:55 PM
  #107
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrfan25 View Post
I would still argue for Staal but anyway I agree with what you're saying and LOVE McD and what I think he will become.
If he stays the same he will climb Ranger greats from the past let alone if he improves.

Also Del Zotto has a chance to also pass some Ranger defensemen from the past.
The way I look at DZ is he's never going to be great defensively. He's not terrible. He's okay at it. His advantage over the rest of the defense corps is the offensive part of his game. That's where he needs to improve as much as possible. There's a belief in some quarters that Torts held him back. I think the Rangers real strength during his time was from the goal on out and McDonagh and Staal were much better options on the left side for the kind of game that Torts wanted out of them. Del Zotto still got decent ice time. In any case I don't think 40 point seasons are going to continue to cut it for him. He has a new coaching staff to work with and a contract coming up after next year--so he has more than enough motivation to improve on the kind of numbers he's put up in the past. Eventually though I suspect someone on the left side is going to be moved. It won't be McDonagh.

eco's bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 04:55 AM
  #108
Fanned On It
Registered User
 
Fanned On It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
Offensive system? People are gonna be very surprised how this team plays this season
Yea it probably won't look all that different from last season =P.

Fanned On It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 06:20 AM
  #109
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,013
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrfan25 View Post
Howell
Park
Greschner
Patrick
Leetch
Ruotsalainen
Beukeboom
Maloney
Lowe
Beck
Neilson
Vadnais

3rd best ? Maybe when he is done but right now ?
He has some climbing to get top 10.
He is not passing Leetch, Park, Howell or Patrick all that easily.
He is already better than 6 or 7 of those.

Vadnais? Seriously? MDZ is already as good as him.

Park, Leetch and Beck were better. Lowe was as good, but not in NY.

I also loved Reijo but defensively, eh.


Last edited by chosen: 08-19-2013 at 06:39 AM.
chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 08:23 AM
  #110
Off Sides
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 663
vCash: 120
Last season 5 on 5 production per 5 on 5 minute.

Staal
~425 mins, 8 pts = .0188 pts per minute (*smaller sample size 21 games)

McD
~988 mins, 18 pts = .0182 pts per minute. (47 games)

Del Zotto
~860 mins, 13 pts= .0151 pts per minute. (46 games)

If both McD and Staal are healthy and good, only way I see Del Zotto getting enough ice time to produce points on the levels he has is on the power play. McD and Staal are just better defensively and they put up about the same or more points 5 on 5.

With a healthy team, I think it's possible Staal, McD, maybe even Stralman and Moore end up getting some of the power play time this year that Del Zotto would have last year.

I guess the way I see it, unless Del Zotto really comes out strong and forces his way onto the top power play unit, or another player is injured putting him on the top unit and getting him more 5 on 5 ice time, I'm just not so sure he is going to get the ice time to put up the points he has in the past. There is just more competition for that ice time this year if the D is healthy.

Off Sides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 08:46 AM
  #111
KreidertheGlider
MDZ for NYR Blueline
 
KreidertheGlider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 473
vCash: 500
MDZ and Richards should never be on the same PP Unit. Both pass more often then they shoot.

MDZ in the shooting slot DOES NOT work.

KreidertheGlider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 11:29 AM
  #112
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
offdacrossbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: da cuse
Country: Tuvalu
Posts: 7,771
vCash: 500
if this team has a healthy staal and the other returning dmen are also healthy.

girardi
mcd
stralzie
moore
mdz

thats a pretty good top 6 right there. im ok with that group although i still think another vet dman with some snarl woudlnt hurt.

mdz's problem is purely a numbers game. hes clearly the weakest or one of the 2 weakest defensively. hes the worst skater and his ineptitude on the pp, specifically his wet noodle shot, is gonna make it tough on him to get top offensive minutes.

its very tough to be an "offensive" dman in this league and skate in mud like he does. its also just as hard to be a solid 2 way guy and skate like he does. he lacks recovery ability and thats bad.

im just not a huge mike fan when hes playing top minutes. hes a decent guy who can carry the play and make some heady passes. beyond that, hes scare me.

offdacrossbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 12:15 PM
  #113
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
if this team has a healthy staal and the other returning dmen are also healthy.

girardi
mcd
stralzie
moore
mdz

thats a pretty good top 6 right there. im ok with that group although i still think another vet dman with some snarl woudlnt hurt.

mdz's problem is purely a numbers game. hes clearly the weakest or one of the 2 weakest defensively. hes the worst skater and his ineptitude on the pp, specifically his wet noodle shot, is gonna make it tough on him to get top offensive minutes.

its very tough to be an "offensive" dman in this league and skate in mud like he does. its also just as hard to be a solid 2 way guy and skate like he does. he lacks recovery ability and thats bad.

im just not a huge mike fan when hes playing top minutes. hes a decent guy who can carry the play and make some heady passes. beyond that, hes scare me.
McDonagh and Moore can both get caught on a pinch and get back in position with most players in the league. Del Zotto does not have that extra gear. If he's caught it's all on Henrik. I really think his size and strength are issues at times too. He just doesn't have enough to handle a real power forward which is why he's not out there against the leagues best forwards--whereas in the past Leetch who had similar size had greater mobility and a better intuitiveness of where a play was going and could offset size and strength issues. The other thing is I think Leetch was always all business--DZ strikes me more as still a kid.

DZ simply to get to the next step has to find a way to up his production. To me that's his only path forward to more ice time.

eco's bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 01:07 PM
  #114
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
offdacrossbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: da cuse
Country: Tuvalu
Posts: 7,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
McDonagh and Moore can both get caught on a pinch and get back in position with most players in the league. Del Zotto does not have that extra gear. If he's caught it's all on Henrik. I really think his size and strength are issues at times too. He just doesn't have enough to handle a real power forward which is why he's not out there against the leagues best forwards--whereas in the past Leetch who had similar size had greater mobility and a better intuitiveness of where a play was going and could offset size and strength issues. The other thing is I think Leetch was always all business--DZ strikes me more as still a kid.

DZ simply to get to the next step has to find a way to up his production. To me that's his only path forward to more ice time.
pretty much agree with your take.

his skating is what holds him back. and his shot.

hard to be an "offensive" dman without the solid skating or shooting ability.

leetch was a machine. played a ton of top end minutes, could play both ends of the ice and always seemed to know where to be. in addition, he was a natural leader on the ice even though he was a very soft spoken man off ice.

as you said, his "intuitiveness" is was what set him apart from other dmen at the time.

del zotto, to me, just seems more limited in his overall upside.

offdacrossbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 01:46 PM
  #115
Trxjw
Moderator
Bored.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 15,784
vCash: 500
Frankly, I think the 11-12 season is more along the lines of where Del Zotto is heading than the shortened season with a bad back is. He was excellent that year. He played tough minutes and was top-20 in scoring among defenders. The real key isn't for him to take some giant leap forward in production, it's for him to find more consistency in his game. If he can be a reliable 2nd pairing defender who notches 50 points in a season, that's tremendous. Despite all of these "shortcomings" people keep listing, he had a very productive full season and managed to score 10 goals.

Moore has shown in the past that he's capable of playing the right side. He might be the guy who switches over this season.

Trxjw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 02:10 PM
  #116
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,040
vCash: 500
Del Zotto has a pretty damn good shot. Not sure what people are saying.

So did a guy like Roszival, we just only saw it once every 5 games.

He also has no issues with strength. He's very stocky and strong, and a hell of a lot more physical then McDonagh (although McD can be a wrecking ball like he was in college if he chose to).

ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 02:27 PM
  #117
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 16,287
vCash: 500
DZ shoots wide too much

Silence Of The Plams is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 02:42 PM
  #118
vipernsx
Flatus Expeller
 
vipernsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 6,084
vCash: 566
He's had 9 and 10 goals already so going into a contract year, I'm going with career highs and 10+

vipernsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:00 PM
  #119
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,013
vCash: 500
The Rangers D is fine defensively. Offensively, it is among the worst. This was never more evident than in the Bruins series, the other major problem being the total domination at the 4th line level.

The Rangers are in desperate need of at least one gifted offensive defenseman. MDZ was supposed to be that. So far, no.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:17 PM
  #120
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The Rangers D is fine defensively. Offensively, it is among the worst. This was never more evident than in the Bruins series, the other major problem being the total domination at the 4th line level.

The Rangers are in desperate need of at least one gifted offensive defenseman. MDZ was supposed to be that. So far, no.
So what I got from this post is that Del Zotto should stop working on his defense, and go back to the perennial liability that can run a power play? Marc Andre Bergeron is in Switzerland, lets go get him. Hell call back Kotalik also, those were the glory days because we had a damn good PP.

The man is not Nick Lidstrom, he's worked hard to round out his game and he's 23 years old. DZ's well on his way to becoming a 50 point two-way defenseman that can play 22+ minutes a night. That's an exceptional hockey player. Shame on him for proving every single hockey mind wrong and becoming a solid NHL defenseman.

This thread is one of the worst I've seen on this board in awhile.

ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:20 PM
  #121
BrianBoyle
↓ Perfection ↓
 
BrianBoyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: On the grass
Country: United States
Posts: 51,506
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The Rangers D is fine defensively. Offensively, it is among the worst. This was never more evident than in the Bruins series, the other major problem being the total domination at the 4th line level.

The Rangers are in desperate need of at least one gifted offensive defenseman. MDZ was supposed to be that. So far, no.
Boston had one offensively oriented defenseman during that series, and that was a rookie Krug who produced one point in 10 games after scoring four goals and five points against the Rangers.

The culprit? Coaching. Yes, coaching. I know it's everyone's go-to factor, but I've been on Tortorella for the lack of usage of the blueline's speed since the beginning of the season. He was terrible with the defense offensively. Do you honestly think Boston's blueline is that much more offensively capable than the Rangers? If you do, you're being overly negative.

__________________

Neutral Milk Hotel are literally GOAT
Amy Poehler <3

Credit to Ail for the sig.
BrianBoyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:23 PM
  #122
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Boston had one offensively oriented defenseman during that series, and that was a rookie Krug who produced one point in 10 games after scoring four goals and five points against the Rangers.

The culprit? Coaching. Yes, coaching. I know it's everyone's go-to factor, but I've been on Tortorella for the lack of usage of the blueline's speed since the beginning of the season. He was terrible with the defense offensively. Do you honestly think Boston's blueline is that much more offensively capable than the Rangers? If you do, you're being overly negative.
100%. It's not a change to a more offensive system (lol), but it is indeed a system change. The Rangers forwards and defense were essentially separate units under Tortorella. That's why our breakout and transition games were a travesty and it looked like they never practiced. He got the worst out of both in terms of offense. AV won't make them magically more offensive, but they will play as one unit, and it will help.

McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, Moore, Stralman and Girardi are all capable of putting up solid points.

ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:25 PM
  #123
BrianBoyle
↓ Perfection ↓
 
BrianBoyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: On the grass
Country: United States
Posts: 51,506
vCash: 300
I'm hoping you guys realize this thread is a parody, by the way.

BrianBoyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:27 PM
  #124
-31-
portnor, pls
 
-31-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,750
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
I'm hoping you guys realize this thread is a parody, by the way.
Think you're the first.

__________________
Rangers Unlimited
-31- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-19-2013, 03:27 PM
  #125
Inferno
HFB Partner
 
Inferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Country: United States
Posts: 19,032
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Boston had one offensively oriented defenseman during that series, and that was a rookie Krug who produced one point in 10 games after scoring four goals and five points against the Rangers.

The culprit? Coaching. Yes, coaching. I know it's everyone's go-to factor, but I've been on Tortorella for the lack of usage of the blueline's speed since the beginning of the season. He was terrible with the defense offensively. Do you honestly think Boston's blueline is that much more offensively capable than the Rangers? If you do, you're being overly negative.
it was definitely coaching, but not about our lack of offense from our d, but more about their offense from their D.

we collapse everything down low and give the points away for free. Krug was just wailing away at one timers. Its a dumb strategy to use because it just locks you in your own zone unles syou can block the shot, have the puck in front of you, and skate it out.

never was a fan of that mentality.

Inferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.