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Understanding the Rebuild

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Old
08-19-2013, 12:45 AM
  #26
Skobel24
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Show me examples of teams who hovered around the bottom of the league for 3-5 years are now cup contenders every year. :help;
Pittsburgh
Washington
Los Angeles
Chicago
St.Louis

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08-19-2013, 12:57 AM
  #27
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This is fine if you have the right information.

Mistake #1 is thinking the Flames farm system was depleted under Sutter.

This is a misconception that needs to stop. Before Sutter the Flames didn't even have a farm system, they were sharing a team because they didn't have enoug prospects to fill a roster and on top of that the team had one of the smallest scouting departments in the NHL.

Sutter was instrumental in the Flames re-starting their AHL program and expanding the scouting department. He was not great at drafting, but to say he depleted the system is just outright wrong.

I agree UFAs will be harder to sign, so in the meantime I wouldn't target any free agent unless I believed they could actually help the rebuild by being a positive influence in the youth.

I will never support intentionally losing, I know you aren't outright suggesting it, but if the team isn't trying to get better I believe that is a problem. You do not went to end the message that losing is acceptable to the players.
Sutter did a lot of good things in terms or setting up the infrastructure that Feaster has been able to reap the rewards of the last couple of years.

However, Sutter probably would of had a better drafting record picking names out of a hat.

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08-19-2013, 12:57 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
Pittsburgh
Washington
Los Angeles
Chicago
St.Louis
St.Louis and Washington are a stretch to be "contenders" every year.

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08-19-2013, 01:55 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
I like you bash my point of saying " what if this group gets us to the 12th pick". Beartchsi, Knight, Brodie, Horak, Bouma, maybe Monohan, Cundari, Breen, Reinhart could all play for us next year. Little different than last year, or the year before. Not to mention Girardi and Jones are new younger players than before....that's already quite the rebuild IMO. No? I said if our current crop of players get us to 18th overall in the NHL you would think that is a rebuild failure, and be disappointed because it isn't a top pick and therefore the rebuild is incorrect.

And don't worry I understand completely that I'm a minority in thinking we won't be a bottom 3 team. I got a small 12 game sample size against teams trying to make the playoffs and/or better their position, and was rather pleased with the results. And we're already better this season on paper because Glencross was injured.
A sample size that you admit is small, that came in a shortened season and where the Flames actually played hungry rookies and prospects over apathetic vets is a paper thin foundation to suggest the Flames will be anything more than a bottom five team. But don't worry; both Oiler and Leaf fans are well versed in this - stinking it up for 75% of the season, but turning it on for the last 25% led to more than a few wasted seasons for them as their management chased imaginary ropes. It's in the Flames best interests not to make the same silly mistake.

Will guys like Reinhart, Horak, Breen, and Cundari, also known as the guys hungry for NHL jobs be on the opening day roster? Or will they stay in the AHL until an injury or trade occurs? And I think you're confusing lateral moves for rebuilding - adding pieces like Jones and O'Brien qualify as the former; which just so happens to be what the Flames have been doing for the last few years anyway.

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I don't see us as a contender or a bottom feeder. I see you in particular among others telling people we will finish last then say we shouldn't make competitive trades or signings when the likes of Hudler, Gio and Glencross will still be with this team after 3 years if we are comptetitive. And there will be progress by our prospects if that happens. They will succeed in the roles given and the vets will slowly move down.....isn't that a rebuild or how all these cup teams win cups???? And so what if Hudler GlenX lead the charge, it doesn't mean it's a failure.
I don't believe I've said anything of sort. And for the record, I don't think the Flames will finish dead last in the league, but I do think they will finish in the bottom five and where they pick depends on the lottery. Of course, a lot depends on whether the Flames sell again at the deadline, how the goaltending holds up, how the prospects look, etc.

As for the trades or signings part, it's simply a matter of not being so myopic to think that this current group is anywhere near competitive and thereby not wanting them to limit their future by wasting assets on a faulty premise. The Flames aren't a playoff team next season and adding a Stepan or Kadri or whatever at their expected cost won't change that. It will however hurt them tremendously, not only as they now have to re-sign their own RFA's to comparable contracts, but have to deal with cap ramifications of an offer sheet contract, the loss of the what will likely be multiple top five picks (it's beyond delusional to think you can snag someone like Stepan for nothing more than a 1st and a 3rd), the added pressure to compete immediately because of the lack of their own first round pick, and so on.

The Flames simply put, are not in a position to take shortcuts now. If they want to make this process as short as possible and not enter into a perpetual rebuild scenario like Columbus or Florida, they'd be better off rebuilding properly once, even if it means some fans have to endure the horrible ordeal of writing off seasons in terms of competitiveness before they even begin.

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08-19-2013, 10:32 AM
  #30
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I really don't know why people call it the Edmonton model. Look at Chicago, Pittsburgh, NY Islanders and other teams who did have top picks and their current success is based on those picks. That's why Edmonton went that route. They weren't the first team to do it and won't be the last. Maybe some of you have only watched hockey for the last 3 or 4 years and that's why its become "the Oilers model"

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08-19-2013, 10:42 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
St.Louis and Washington are a stretch to be "contenders" every year.
5 years ago washington was probably the favorite. last year st. louis could have won the presidents trophy. main thing stopping them are washington ****** GM and st louis' internal cap

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08-19-2013, 11:15 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Flamesfan 26 View Post
I really don't know why people call it the Edmonton model. Look at Chicago, Pittsburgh, NY Islanders and other teams who did have top picks and their current success is based on those picks. That's why Edmonton went that route. They weren't the first team to do it and won't be the last. Maybe some of you have only watched hockey for the last 3 or 4 years and that's why its become "the Oilers model"
Yea I am new to hockey, that's why I needed to understand the rebuild. Trying to figure out the game.

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08-19-2013, 11:44 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Yea I am new to hockey, that's why I needed to understand the rebuild. Trying to figure out the game.
Not sure if this was a sarcastic remark or not....

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Old
08-19-2013, 12:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross View Post
Not sure if this was a sarcastic remark or not....
Yes very much so sarcastic. Geez, people list 5 teams that went through 'similar' rebuilds getting top picks being cup contending teams, but fail to remember these same teams also got some of their core from other trades or FA signings.

Look, I'm not saying we should trade for Now pieces or sign for now, with the exception of Stepan, all I am saying is making the proper adjustments to our roster to not be last is not a bad thing. I understand the game quite well, I understand Backlund shouldn't have starte his career on the 4th line, neither should Sven, Monahan, etc. I get that. What I'm saying and the basis Of this thread is if we did ice this lineup consisting of all the young drafted/aquired pieces: Backlund, Baertschi, Knight, Brodie, Bouma, Monahan, Horak, Cundari, Breen.... And we finished 18th, there would be irate fans on this board, mad we didn't draft top 5.

Delusional or not. It's as hypothetical as it is finishing last. Did everyone predict Philly to finish where they did? Did everyone predict Columbus to finish where they did? No, there is nothing to go by but a small sample. And we're Better on paper than we were at the end of this season.

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08-19-2013, 12:02 PM
  #35
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^^ We downgraded in defense (lost Bouwmeester), offense (lost Iggy and Tangs), and in goalie.

How are we better on paper?

I would wait until we've established a solid core of players before making any crazy "purchases"

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08-19-2013, 12:07 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
^^ We downgraded in defense (lost Bouwmeester), offense (lost Iggy and Tangs), and in goalie.

How are we better on paper?

I would wait until we've established a solid core of players before making any crazy "purchases"
What was our record after we traded those players, lost Glencross/Tangs to injury? What teams did we beat and what was their position going into playoffs?

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08-19-2013, 12:09 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
What was our record after we traded those players, lost Glencross/Tangs to injury? What teams did we beat and what was their position going into playoffs?
Doesn't count.

Most of the players on the team after the trade(s) had something to prove, such as Cundari, Hanowski, MacDonald, ect. I definitely believe that it will be a different outcome when January/February is here.


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Old
08-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
What was our record after we traded those players, lost Glencross/Tangs to injury? What teams did we beat and what was their position going into playoffs?
What, the 10 games (or whatever) after the deadline? You're suggesting we give up on the rebuild and that we're all set to win a cup based on those few games?

Its common knowledge that teams out of the mix are hard to beat because player's have low motivation to risk injury playing against a basement dweller, while the team who's out of it has no pressure and is playing for fun.

Not the same thing when a season is on the line.

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08-19-2013, 12:24 PM
  #39
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What, the 10 games (or whatever) after the deadline? You're suggesting we give up on the rebuild and that we're all set to win a cup based on those few games?

Its common knowledge that teams out of the mix are hard to beat because player's have low motivation to risk injury playing against a basement dweller, while the team who's out of it has no pressure and is playing for fun.

Not the same thing when a season is on the line.
Do people here just read what they want to read, and come up with an argument to argue????

I AM NOT SAYING GIVE UP ON THE REBUILD. I AM NOT SAYING GO OUT AND SIGN PLAYERS. I am simply saying if our current roster, although unlikely, gets us to 18th overall, how is that a bad thing? I have listed a number of players on our roster who I consider are our rebuild for now, and if they played their way to a 12th overall pick, the Flames fans on this board would mad it isn't a top 5 pick and blame Feaster for not rebuilding. I did say the '10 games was a sample size' and not a full season.
No where did I mention we should give up the rebuild or did I say we are cup contending.

Of coarse our players had something to prove. There is a whole season coming up with a lot of players that need to prove their worth and earn a spot on the roster.

I'm simply trying to understand or rather differentiate between fans that want to tank, and follow edmontons rebuild, or fans that want them to succeed using our young players, or bringing in YOUNG future core players.

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08-19-2013, 12:27 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Do people here just read what they want to read, and come up with an argument to argue????

I AM NOT SAYING GIVE UP ON THE REBUILD. I AM NOT SAYING GO OUT AND SIGN PLAYERS. I am simply saying if our current roster, although unlikely, gets us to 18th overall, how is that a bad thing? I have listed a number of players on our roster who I consider are our rebuild for now, and if they played their way to a 12th overall pick, the Flames fans on this board would mad it isn't a top 5 pick and blame Feaster for not rebuilding. I did say the '10 games was a sample size' and not a full season.
No where did I mention we should give up the rebuild or did I say we are cup contending.

Of coarse our players had something to prove. There is a whole season coming up with a lot of players that need to prove their worth and earn a spot on the roster.
I disagree. The players (Sven, Monahan, Cundari, Hanowksi if he makes it, Knight, Bouma, ect) don't have the experience to understand that it takes a whole season to make the playoffs. I believe that they'll storm out early in the season and steam off when January/February comes. Much like Edmonton the past few years.


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Old
08-19-2013, 12:41 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross View Post
I disagree. The players (Sven, Monahan, Cundari, Hanowksi if he makes it, ect) don't have the experience to understand that it takes a whole season to make the playoffs. I believe that they'll storm out early in the season and steam off when January/February comes. Much like Edmonton the past few years.
Sure your probably right, and the flames will give spots to guys who earn it and not ones who feel they are entitled to a spot. The exact reason we are in this position in the first place. We brought in players all the time and everyone felt they deserved a spot. This year every player has a chance. This should raise the compete level twice as high than in most recent years.

Maybe they will storm out come Jan., someone else will step up or whatever. I'm not delusional, we traded our best players for prospects and we are nothing but a bunch of question marks for the season. We may finish last or 20th or whatever. My point is the fan base WANTs to finish last so we can get a high pick, which by evidence hasn't worked out well for the majority of teams

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08-19-2013, 12:53 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Do people here just read what they want to read, and come up with an argument to argue????

I AM NOT SAYING GIVE UP ON THE REBUILD. I AM NOT SAYING GO OUT AND SIGN PLAYERS. I am simply saying if our current roster, although unlikely, gets us to 18th overall, how is that a bad thing? I have listed a number of players on our roster who I consider are our rebuild for now, and if they played their way to a 12th overall pick, the Flames fans on this board would mad it isn't a top 5 pick and blame Feaster for not rebuilding. I did say the '10 games was a sample size' and not a full season.
No where did I mention we should give up the rebuild or did I say we are cup contending.

Of coarse our players had something to prove. There is a whole season coming up with a lot of players that need to prove their worth and earn a spot on the roster.

I'm simply trying to understand or rather differentiate between fans that want to tank, and follow edmontons rebuild, or fans that want them to succeed using our young players, or bringing in YOUNG future core players.
I'm not sure I understand. You think our team is not built for a cup, yet you want our team to contend for 12th-18th place? That helps the franchise how?

What building model are you proposing? The perpetually-mediocre model?

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08-19-2013, 01:06 PM
  #43
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I'm not sure I understand. You think our team is not built for a cup, yet you want our team to contend for 12th-18th place? That helps the franchise how?

What building model are you proposing? The perpetually-mediocre model?
You don't understand. That's crystal clear. I want our team to contend for anything but last place. I want our team to contend for the playoffs. Yes. If they finished 18th overall I would be jumping for joy and even more excited for next year....IF this Roster today did it.

I will not be happy if we finish last. I will not be happy if our lineup, consisted of our young players, failed to win, or develop, or show promise, or gave up, or ran out of steam. I do not want a mediocre team. I sure don't want a bottom feeding team. If we do finish last, ill be choked. If we finish 2nd last in 2015, ill be choked. I do not want an irrelevant hockey team. I don't dish out thousands of dollars every year to get good draft picks, an watch countless prospects come and go and develop a losing attitude. I am patient, I have been for 3 years. I have enough common sense to understand I must patient for at least 3 more years before we are supposed to be actual contenders, but if we are comparing teams on who does what and how, I'd rather follow in the footsteps of OTT an MTL, instead of NYI, EDM, FLA, TBL, etc

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08-19-2013, 01:08 PM
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BVicious, I've always thought of the salary-cap era NHL as a perpetual cycle for all teams who aren't the Red Wings. When you have a bad team, you can usually navigate that team through a rebuild and produce a period of success some years later. There are various parameters which can be adjusted when putting together a rebuild, and the two main results are the height of the team's peak and the time it takes to get there. Yes, we can make moves to acquire a Derek Stepan or other similar guys and move that peak closer to now. However, that sort of move will usually mean sacrificing multiple Derek Stepans who will be ready a few years down the road. In essence, we would be bringing the peak nearer chronologically, but likely bringing down the potential height. The philosophy of pro-tankers is that until we are actually one of the top 3 teams in the league and a legitimate contender for the cup, the results of all of the seasons in between are completely irrelevant. Meanwhile, if those are really, really bad, then our time at the top should be longer and more fruitful.

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08-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #45
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I have enough common sense to understand I must patient for at least 3 more years before we are supposed to be actual contenders, but if we are comparing teams on who does what and how, I'd rather follow in the footsteps of OTT an MTL, instead of NYI, EDM, FLA, TBL, etc
But this is the thing. Yes, Ottawa and Montreal are solid teams and give their teams something to cheer for most years, but does anyone actually think these teams are built to win a cup in the next few years? I have a hard time buying it, personally. If they do, it will have to be an extremely fortuitous run.

There is merit in that, too. It's just that a lot of fans crave being a dominant team. A team that other teams look out for because they know they're outmatched. A team that we can actually expect to win a cup rather than hope.

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08-19-2013, 01:18 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
You don't understand. That's crystal clear.
You're fault, not mine. I can't write concisely for you and I certainly cannot explain one's madness.

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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
I want our team to contend for anything but last place. I want our team to contend for the playoffs. Yes. If they finished 18th overall I would be jumping for joy and even more excited for next year....IF this Roster today did it.

I will not be happy if we finish last. I will not be happy if our lineup, consisted of our young players, failed to win, or develop, or show promise, or gave up, or ran out of steam. I do not want a mediocre team. I sure don't want a bottom feeding team. If we do finish last, ill be choked. If we finish 2nd last in 2015, ill be choked. I do not want an irrelevant hockey team. I don't dish out thousands of dollars every year to get good draft picks, an watch countless prospects come and go and develop a losing attitude. I am patient, I have been for 3 years. I have enough common sense to understand I must patient for at least 3 more years before we are supposed to be actual contenders, but if we are comparing teams on who does what and how, I'd rather follow in the footsteps of OTT an MTL, instead of NYI, EDM, FLA, TBL, etc
You don't understand, because you have yet to answer the questions. This helps us how? What do you propose to rebuild?

Weren't the Flames a borderline playoff team for 5 years? How did that work out?

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08-19-2013, 01:56 PM
  #47
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Laugh all you want at the Oilers... us as fans dealt with it for a while. The Flames situation will only get worst before it gets better, but fact is id rather watch my team now than 5 years ago... we didnt support 'tanking', losing just happened for long time and it wears on someone... but we are still here supporting our team no matter what. I just want meaningful BOA's and hopefully the flames gets their **** together fast, keep selling out unlike the Sens and stay with it. Now I can get back to hating you guys.

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08-19-2013, 02:07 PM
  #48
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Laugh all you want at the Oilers... us as fans dealt with it for a while. The Flames situation will only get worst before it gets better, but fact is id rather watch my team now than 5 years ago... we didnt support 'tanking', losing just happened for long time and it wears on someone... but we are still here supporting our team no matter what. I just want meaningful BOA's and hopefully the flames gets their **** together fast, keep selling out unlike the Sens and stay with it. Now I can get back to hating you guys.
How so? How can you be worse than having a team loaded with veterans who can't keep up with the rest of the league, and a complete and utter dearth of prospects? That was our situation a few years ago.

Maybe our record will get a little worse, but I'd much rather watch Monahan, Baertschi and co. win games as the underdog than watch Bouwmeester, Tanguay and (dare I say) an aging Iginla lose games they should win.

We are not the Oilers. Our rebuild will have a different shape because we have not stopped signing players the last couple of years, and we have some players of value who are currently in their respective primes. There's a good chance that the worst is behind us, in my opinion.

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08-19-2013, 02:17 PM
  #49
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BVicious, we cannot have a rebuild like MTL or OTT because we do not have a supporting cast like they did when they started to rebuild. The Sens already had Spezza, Alfredsson, Heatley IIRC, and Gonchar. The Habs had Plekanec, Gorges, Gionta, Gomez (to an extent), and others. Both of those teams had a number one center along with a 1st line wingerr, which we do not have. The Habs also got really unlucky in the 2011-2012 season and got a good pick because of it, asmthey weren't trying to rebuild. Unfortunately, the Flames took too long to trade their cast, so we were left with draft picks and not up-and-coming stars.

The rebuild in Calgary will most likely be like the Oilers. When the Oilers started their rebuild, they basically had nothing to start with, like the Flames (roster wise; not prospect wise). As shown during this years offseason, we didn't try to sign any top FA's (however, the tide has turned for the Oilers with the signings of Gordon and Ference). There's no point in overpaying for highly regarded free agents (such as Wideman, Boumeester, ect) when you are rebuilding as it will become cap hell when you try to re-sign your younger players.

If the Oilers had signed Vanek to that long term/money contract, it most likely would have hurt them in the long run. Would signing Vanek really make them into playoff contenders? Probably not. In fact, I'd say it would hurt them more as Vanek would make the Oilers into a playoff binge team but not a playoff team. That 10th place finish would have not gotten them a good prospect, meanwhile their prospect pool was already deflated at the time. Much like the Flames 2009-2012. So, would signing Stepan make the Flames into a playoff contender this year? Probably not. Good thing is, we do have a good amount of prospects in our pool than the Oilers did when they started the rebuild.

I'm probably rambling a bit, but this is my honest opinion about the whole thing.


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Old
08-19-2013, 02:18 PM
  #50
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I would classify myself as a realist fan. I won't and cannot understand how some posters on this board are already 'hoping' that we finish dead last before the puck has even dropped for the opening game. I can get people saying that they expect we finish last, but hoping for it because it's the only way to build a winner is something I'll never support and cannot get why anyone would.

At the same time, like this past season if half the games have been played and the conclusion of the of season has been but decided, then management needs to put their plan into action and do what is best for the future because the season is lost.

I'm not expecting it, but I'm hoping the Flames surprise the hell out of me and overachieve. And I will not be unhappy if they do.

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