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Strongest players in the history of the game, within the context of the game

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08-19-2013, 12:36 PM
  #101
SaintPatrick33
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Cus D'Amato and Tyson's subsequent handlers were notorious for cherrypicking opponents with little head movement and no jab as lambs to the slaughter for Tyson. He beat Holmes, but the second time (and all subsequent times) he fought a taller, heavier guy with reasonable (but not crazy) skill and power who jabbed and moved his head, he got wrecked.

And in any event, Tyson's career is the exception and not relevant, unless you're trying to say everyone smaller than Howe in the 50s and 60s (which is basically everyone) had outlier speed and ferocity compared to everyone else in the league at the time, which is, by definition, impossible.
Looks like you just moved the goalposts. We weren't talking about whether they jabbed or moved their heads: We were talking about whether they were stronger or not. Nor were we talking about whether the players Howe faced had outlier speed or not. All those questions are irrelevant to the discussion which was whether they were stronger. Bringing up jabs and speed is a smokescreen that doesn't change the fact that smaller guys can be stronger than bigger guys.

And btw, after the Douglas fight Tyson fought Razor Ruddock twice, a fighter with reasonable skill and a LOT of power who was both taller and heavier than Tyson, and Tyson wrecked HIM twice.

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08-19-2013, 12:40 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by skillhockey View Post
Someone already said it but Datsyuk is really strong for his size. There's video where he dumps Shea Weber like a rag doll.
Datsyuks built like a tank. That dudes got some Shoulder son him. Similiar to Claude Lemiuex. Those guys were built for hockey

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08-19-2013, 01:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Looks like you just moved the goalposts. We weren't talking about whether they jabbed or moved their heads: We were talking about whether they were stronger or not. Nor were we talking about whether the players Howe faced had outlier speed or not. All those questions are irrelevant to the discussion which was whether they were stronger. Bringing up jabs and speed is a smokescreen that doesn't change the fact that smaller guys can be stronger than bigger guys.

And btw, after the Douglas fight Tyson fought Razor Ruddock twice, a fighter with reasonable skill and a LOT of power who was both taller and heavier than Tyson, and Tyson wrecked HIM twice.
Where did I say the stronger, heavier guy wins every boxing match? I didn't say that. There's no goalpost-moving here, only straw men.

The maxim, once again, is "a good big man will beat a good small man." Tyson wasn't "good" at what he did well, which was throw fast bombs in combinations from strange angles. He was great. And Ruddock wasn't good at using his size to smother or otherwise neutralize smaller fighters. Frankly, he was horrible at it (he didn't keep the Great White Hype off of him, like, at all). His thing was to trade hooks. That's not a "good" strategy to use against a guy who throws more punches than you do, faster than you do and blocks your punches while you're not blocking his.

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08-19-2013, 01:13 PM
  #104
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Ted Lindsay is often called "the toughest pound-for-pound hockey player in history." But there's a reason why after he started things with a guy much bigger than him, he'd lead that guy in Gordie Howe's direction.

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08-19-2013, 01:28 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Where did I say the stronger, heavier guy wins every boxing match? I didn't say that. There's no goalpost-moving here, only straw men.

The maxim, once again, is "a good big man will beat a good small man."
And what was the context of your "a good big man will beat a good small man" quote? That's right! In the context of a discussion of whether bigger equals stronger! Sorry, but you can twist and change context and try to divert the discussion into channels unrelated to your hearts content but it doesn't refute my premise that size doesn't equal strength. Nor does it alter the fact the "good big man beats....." saying is a cliche that's been shown false over and over again throughout the course of boxing history.

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08-19-2013, 01:32 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Tyson wasn't "good" at what he did well, which was throw fast bombs in combinations from strange angles. He was great. And Ruddock wasn't good at using his size to smother or otherwise neutralize smaller fighters. Frankly, he was horrible at it (he didn't keep the Great White Hype off of him, like, at all). His thing was to trade hooks. That's not a "good" strategy to use against a guy who throws more punches than you do, faster than you do and blocks your punches while you're not blocking his.
You said very specifically >>>>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Cus D'Amato and Tyson's subsequent handlers were notorious for cherrypicking opponents with little head movement and no jab as lambs to the slaughter for Tyson. He beat Holmes, but the second time (and all subsequent times) he fought a taller, heavier guy with reasonable (but not crazy) skill and power who jabbed and moved his head, he got wrecked.
I just provided you with an example that refuted that very specific claim. So you try and change the argument into something other than what you claimed. And THAT, Sir, is moving the goalposts.

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08-19-2013, 01:41 PM
  #107
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The anecdote about Tim Horton getting upset at a vending machine and carrying it down to the lobby and leaving it in protest after the hotel staff wouldn't refund his money for a soda stays with me whenever I think of "strong hockey player".
Never heard that story, however that would be about as strong as a human being could possibly be.

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08-19-2013, 02:23 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Never heard that story, however that would be about as strong as a human being could possibly be.
Oh? Yes indeedy. Actually a regular practical joke he'd play on his team mates. They ask him for a Coke or Ice, he'd wander off down the hall in whatever hotel the Leafs were staying at, bring them back the entire machine. Plunk it in front of their door. Good luck getting out of there Boys. Cant remember the exact details but got perturbed with someone one time, for a lark held this player from the window of a hotel by his ankles some floors up from the ground. He was only 5'10" and weighed in at 180lbs, but according to John Ferguson the hardest bodychecker he'd ever encountered; to Jacques Plante the heaviest & hardest shot he'd ever encountered and thats sayin somethin huh? Famous Tim Horton Bear Hug. Like a Boa Constrictor. Squeeze the air right out of guys with height & weight advantages to the point of nearly passing out if they wanted a "go" with him. Pretty hilarious really. Coke bottle thick glasses off the ice. Nicknamed Clark Kent / Superman.

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08-19-2013, 04:47 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Oh? Yes indeedy. Actually a regular practical joke he'd play on his team mates. They ask him for a Coke or Ice, he'd wander off down the hall in whatever hotel the Leafs were staying at, bring them back the entire machine. Plunk it in front of their door. Good luck getting out of there Boys. Cant remember the exact details but got perturbed with someone one time, for a lark held this player from the window of a hotel by his ankles some floors up from the ground. He was only 5'10" and weighed in at 180lbs, but according to John Ferguson the hardest bodychecker he'd ever encountered; to Jacques Plante the heaviest & hardest shot he'd ever encountered and thats sayin somethin huh? Famous Tim Horton Bear Hug. Like a Boa Constrictor. Squeeze the air right out of guys with height & weight advantages to the point of nearly passing out if they wanted a "go" with him. Pretty hilarious really. Coke bottle thick glasses off the ice. Nicknamed Clark Kent / Superman.
The other stuff I knew about him, never heard the vending machine story though. The player in question that he reportedly dangled out of the window was Dick Duff, so the story goes that I heard.

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08-19-2013, 04:48 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
You said very specifically >>>>>



I just provided you with an example that refuted that very specific claim. So you try and change the argument into something other than what you claimed. And THAT, Sir, is moving the goalposts.
You provided me with an example of a jabber who moves his head? Who was it, because it wasn't Ruddock.

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08-19-2013, 04:54 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
And what was the context of your "a good big man will beat a good small man" quote? That's right! In the context of a discussion of whether bigger equals stronger! Sorry, but you can twist and change context and try to divert the discussion into channels unrelated to your hearts content but it doesn't refute my premise that size doesn't equal strength. Nor does it alter the fact the "good big man beats....." saying is a cliche that's been shown false over and over again throughout the course of boxing history.
You are all over the place.

Tyson beating Razor Ruddock didn't have anything to do with being stronger.

In addition, the maxim in question is comparing fighters of comparable skill at their craft. Ruddock and Tyson did not have comparable skill at their craft. Hence it says "a good big man will always beat a good small man," not a "pretty good big man will always beat a great small man."

And finally, nowhere did I say there weren't exceptions, even if Tyson vs Ruddock is not one of them. In fact, I specifically said there were exceptions.

And, looping back to Howe, it might interest you that your example of a small guy being stronger than a larger guy, wrong as it is, compares two fighters who are closer in mass than Howe was to the majority of the players on the other teams.

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08-19-2013, 05:17 PM
  #112
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08-19-2013, 05:30 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
You provided me with an example of a jabber who moves his head? Who was it, because it wasn't Ruddock.
Apparently you've never watched him fight if you don't think jabbed or moved his head.

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08-19-2013, 05:41 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
You are all over the place.

Tyson beating Razor Ruddock didn't have anything to do with being stronger.

In addition, the maxim in question is comparing fighters of comparable skill at their craft. Ruddock and Tyson did not have comparable skill at their craft. Hence it says "a good big man will always beat a good small man," not a "pretty good big man will always beat a great small man."

And finally, nowhere did I say there weren't exceptions, even if Tyson vs Ruddock is not one of them. In fact, I specifically said there were exceptions.

And, looping back to Howe, it might interest you that your example of a small guy being stronger than a larger guy, wrong as it is, compares two fighters who are closer in mass than Howe was to the majority of the players on the other teams.
You said very specifically >>>>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
but the second time (and all subsequent times) he fought a taller, heavier guy with reasonable (but not crazy) skill and power who jabbed and moved his head, he got wrecked.
The example of Ruddock proves that statement of yours wrong. Period. End of. No trying to change the parameters. You said what you said and it's right there in black and white.

When you make a general statement a single example to the contrary refutes your statement according to the rules of logic.

Funny how you try to hem and haw and ignore the basic fact that boxing's history is littered with "good small men" beating "good big men".

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08-19-2013, 05:47 PM
  #115
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Let's steer the conversation back towards hockey, please.

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08-20-2013, 08:37 PM
  #116
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It's really hard to argue against Chara as the top guy.He played in the "biggest" (meaning players are bigger) league of all-time and still was the main all-around physical force for many years.He still is to this day.

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08-21-2013, 10:01 AM
  #117
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I read a remark by Dave Keon that he was once over Tim Horton's house and Tim had dumbbells/barbells there. Keon said he tried to lift one but he couldn't even get it an inch off the floor

This leads me to wonder, though, if Horton was lifting weights, even on his own, how much of his strength might have been due to weight training? No doubt he had great natural strength, but if he was one of the few players who was training with weights back then also, it might explain how his strength got legendary? Look at the pics of Hull also. Does someone get a build like that from just "pitching hay"? I wonder?


Last edited by BobbyAwe: 08-21-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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08-26-2013, 01:18 PM
  #118
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Eric lindros and there is no contest !

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