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Melnyk Interview (Regarding Alfredsson and teams finances)

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Old
08-21-2013, 05:56 PM
  #176
Qward
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I would imagine they have to pay something for them.

When I won tickets it came with $15 to use towards food. You would think someone has to foot the bill.

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08-21-2013, 07:01 PM
  #177
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The team 1200 pays for those tickets,but at a big discount im sure, as the giveaway is advertising for the sens as well.

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08-21-2013, 07:19 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Yotes didn't show anything that suggested Melnyk was draining the Sens for his other investments, nor did the Citizens' report.
The Citizen report didn't even broach the subject; however that is what Yost has been researching and reporting on for the last few months.This is just one example but there are many more. Wether he is on the right track or not, who knows.,

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Travi...4#.UhVWYZKTi8B

One of two conclusions can be made: (1) the Ottawa Senators and Trimel took out another series of loans in 2012; or (2) the Ottawa Senators are paying the loan Trimel took out in 2012, and Eugene Melnyk's businesses are more or less functioning as one larger entity. Neither is particularly encouraging.

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08-21-2013, 07:22 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Andre Benoit Bawls View Post
SENS have made money over the past two years (10-15mil). Melnyk has not. Big and obvious difference there.
Not sure that is the case either, while the Sens probably did show an Operating Profit, after the debt charges and taxes are paid it would be hard to say with assurance there was a profit.

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08-21-2013, 07:58 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
The Citizen report didn't even broach the subject; however that is what Yost has been researching and reporting on for the last few months.This is just one example but there are many more. Wether he is on the right track or not, who knows.,

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Travi...4#.UhVWYZKTi8B

One of two conclusions can be made: (1) the Ottawa Senators and Trimel took out another series of loans in 2012; or (2) the Ottawa Senators are paying the loan Trimel took out in 2012, and Eugene Melnyk's businesses are more or less functioning as one larger entity. Neither is particularly encouraging.
I realize the connection Yost was attempting to make, he was using the resume of Brian Crombie, an ex-employee of Biovail, to suggest Melnyk had refinanced at least once and was in financial distress.

The Citizen showed the loan history of the Senators and the amount the Sens owed after the latest refinancing excercise. This information actually did not align itself with what the resume indicated, nor did it show Melnyk was drawing on the increased valuation of the team increasing the debt to any extent.

Based on the Citizen article, it appears there is a loan for $130M against the team and arena, which is slightly over the original loan made to purchase the team.

So while EM may have cash flow issues, there is nothing here to suggest he is taking money for his other ventures and saddling the team with enormous debt.

IMO Yost is attempting to take what little information there is about Melnyk's finances and then use the old saying "where there is smoke there is fire".

While there is a possibility Yost may be right, there is no way of knowing factually if he is since EMs major ventures are privately owned.

I don't believe EM is as "flush" as he was when he bought the Sens, but that in itself doesn't suggest EM is running the Sens into the ground either.

IMO it appears EM is controlling expense while icing a competitive team that the fans enjoy to the extent the STH base is reaching a record level. Sounds like good business even if it deprives people on this forum from playing Sens GM.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 08-21-2013 at 08:18 PM.
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08-21-2013, 08:19 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxd View Post
Results of some trivial research:
Code:

Team                Gms avg at. Tot At. Avg Ticket Annual Gate Revenue
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Toronto Maple Leafs 24  19,426  466,224 $123.77    $57,704,544.48
Montreal Canadiens  24  21,273  510,552 $88.67     $45,270,645.84
Winnipeg Jets       24  15,004  360,096 $98.27     $35,386,633.92
Philadelphia Flyers 24  19,786  474,864 $66.89     $31,763,652.96
Calgary Flames      24  19,289  462,936 $68.18     $31,562,976.48
Vancouver Canucks   24  18,947  454,728 $68.38     $31,094,300.64
Chicago Blackhawks  24  21,755  522,120 $55.72     $29,092,526.40
Edmonton Oilers     24  16,839  404,136 $70.13     $28,342,057.68
Minnesota Wild      24  18,794  451,056 $62.63     $28,249,637.28
Pittsburgh Penguins 24  18,648  447,552 $63.06     $28,222,629.12
New York Rangers    24  17,200  412,800 $66.20     $27,327,360.00
Washington Capitals 24  17,734  425,616 $62.42     $26,566,950.72
Ottawa Senators     24  19,408  465,792 $55.51     $25,856,113.92
Detroit Red Wings   24  20,066  481,584 $53.28     $25,658,795.52
Boston Bruins       24  17,565  421,560 $59.94     $25,268,306.40
Florida Panthers    24  16,991  407,784 $55.67     $22,701,335.28
Los Angeles Kings   24  18,178  436,272 $51.92     $22,651,242.24
San Jose Sharks     24  17,561  421,464 $49.73     $20,959,404.72
Nashville Predators 24  16,974  407,376 $51.04     $20,792,471.04
New Jersey Devils   24  17,114  410,736 $45.86     $18,836,352.96
Carolina Hurricanes 24  17,558  421,392 $41.58     $17,521,479.36
Buffalo Sabres      24  18,970  455,280 $38.25     $17,414,460.00
Tampa Bay Lightning 24  19,055  457,320 $37.73     $17,254,683.60
St. Louis Blues     24  17,263  414,312 $41.57     $17,222,949.84
Columbus  B Jackets 24  14,565  349,560 $47.95     $16,761,402.00
New York Islanders  24  13,306  319,344 $49.06     $15,667,016.64
Colorado Avalanche  24  15,444  370,656 $40.62     $15,056,046.72
Anaheim Ducks       24  15,887  381,288 $36.94     $14,084,778.72
Dallas Stars        24  17,063  409,512 $29.95     $12,264,884.40
Phoenix Coyotes     24  13,923  334,152 $36.15     $12,079,594.80

Sources:
http://www.hookedonhockeymagazine.co...1-2012-season/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ndance_figures

Conclusions:

Ottawa is 13th in the league in gate revenue.
Ottawa is 6th in the league in bums in the seats (which roughly equates to concession take)

Given these facts, how is it possible that we are loosing money hand over fist?

If it really is true that the Senators have been hemorrhaging, does that not imply that at least half of the league looses money ... some teams dramatically so? How can this be?

Either the CBA is completely sporked or there's something I'm not understanding or someone is lying.

Something smells fishy here. Please, enlighten me. I hate feeling like we (the fan base) is getting the shaft.

One thing i would note is that these arent even representing half of the NHL revenues. Add them up. The total of all these gate revenues for half a season is 0.73 Billion. Presumably that would be say $1.4 Bil prorated to a full year say.

But the players are getting 50% of between 3 and 4 billion. So even though we have hung on to the old cliche about hockey being a gate driven league, these numbers are suggesting that gate is accounting for less than half of league revenues, and that gate almost on its own pays for all salaries.

So perhaps this is part of why looking at the gate numbers and seeing how well we are doing can be misleading. And is also a reason why the growth isnt all bad as its not gate revenue driving a lot of the growth apparently. As long as there is adequate revenue sharing that is.

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08-21-2013, 08:26 PM
  #182
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Its not just fans but Melnyk himself has made a point about not having enough money and pushing for a casino as a way to relieve his money woes.He appears to be using the Sens as a lever to get the city to help him achieve that goal.

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08-21-2013, 08:45 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Its not just fans but Melnyk himself has made a point about not having enough money and pushing for a casino as a way to relieve his money woes.He appears to be using the Sens as a lever to get the city to help him achieve that goal.
Of course he is

And it's working

If it wasn't for the Senators I'd be 200% against a casino

Casinos are not a good thing

But I can deal with it if it help the Senators

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08-23-2013, 11:52 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
No he doesn't, this is a myth.
I know he isn't hiding hockey related revenue, but by keeping the arena a seperate business he can claim to lose money on the sens while making more than that back on the arena and the events it hosts. Its been stated that the Sens have to make the second round to break even, but when does the arena make up for the loses the Sens incur? I find it hard to believe that with the amount of shows the arena hosts that its losing money too.

Together, the arena and Sens are self sustaining. He probably isn't making a ton of money compared to what he's losing in other business ventures. And that's what the whole casino thing is really about to me, he's losing money and using his most publicly loved asset as leverage to get a casino.

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08-24-2013, 12:12 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Karl Cowensson View Post
I know he isn't hiding hockey related revenue, but by keeping the arena a seperate business he can claim to lose money on the sens while making more than that back on the arena and the events it hosts. Its been stated that the Sens have to make the second round to break even, but when does the arena make up for the loses the Sens incur? I find it hard to believe that with the amount of shows the arena hosts that its losing money too.

Together, the arena and Sens are self sustaining. He probably isn't making a ton of money compared to what he's losing in other business ventures. And that's what the whole casino thing is really about to me, he's losing money and using his most publicly loved asset as leverage to get a casino.
The problem I have with this is it is purely assumption/speculation. Melnyk holdings in Ottawa are all privately owned, none of the financials are made public.

So I really don't think what people think or believe has any basis in reality in regards to Melynk's Capital Sports Holdings Inc.

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08-24-2013, 01:19 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post

If it wasn't for the Senators I'd be 200% against a casino

Casinos are not a good thing

But I can deal with it if it help the Senators
You, and others who are against a casino. A casino is not a bad thing.


Last edited by Qward: 08-24-2013 at 12:09 PM. Reason: mod edit
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08-24-2013, 02:44 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by MightyIgor View Post
You, and others who are against a casino. A casino is not a bad thing.
Imagine if all decisions were made like that


Last edited by Qward: 08-24-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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08-24-2013, 12:11 PM
  #188
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jets fan coming in peace..

I think its heartbreaking, as a general hockey fan, your team drafts so well, has such a great base of young talent that I have attempted to trade for in other threads, yet is stuck with a 50 million internal cap. Your core is so good that if you had that extra coin, the Stanley Cup should be yours soon.

So is there a way out of this mess? I am not familiar with Melnyk and his business situation even less so. Does your franchise face long term uncertainty? Is moving the team a potential horror scenario? Can any additional investors be found?

Would love Sens fan feedback. Hope it its not too painful. Hope you can keep your core together.

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08-24-2013, 12:52 PM
  #189
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jets fan coming in peace..

I think its heartbreaking, as a general hockey fan, your team drafts so well, has such a great base of young talent that I have attempted to trade for in other threads, yet is stuck with a 50 million internal cap. Your core is so good that if you had that extra coin, the Stanley Cup should be yours soon.

So is there a way out of this mess? I am not familiar with Melnyk and his business situation even less so. Does your franchise face long term uncertainty? Is moving the team a potential horror scenario? Can any additional investors be found?

Would love Sens fan feedback. Hope it its not too painful. Hope you can keep your core together.
There are a variety of opinions on the financial state of the franchise, ranging from cynical disbelief to complete doom and gloom. This is my take:

I think a lot would have to go wrong for the team itself to ever be in threat of relocation. It would be absolute worst case scenario and I doubt its likelihood. I would hope that Melnyk would divest before it even came close to being that bad.

It really isn't that bad right now. We have an internal cap, yes, but also an outstanding team for the money we're spending. If they keep relatively within budget they'll probably be fine, praying to the money gods that the CDN$ stays at par with the US and the team continues to build on its success on the ice. Management has also indicated that there's a pinch of flexibility when it comes to deadline additions.

Long-term, it's a waiting game. Melnyk has refinanced the debt as of mid-season last year after struggling to do so immediately before and during the lockout. We'll see how things progress as ELC's expire and management is forced to spend more to keep the core intact and keep pace with the rising salary cap. I'll let someone who actually believes that Melnyk is draining the club of resources to finance his other losing ventures to explain that if they so wish. Either way, really nothing we can do. Looking forward to an exciting club this year.

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08-24-2013, 12:57 PM
  #190
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Beyond outdated morality concerns, what is the problem with a casino?

They are all over the place already.

You can't save people from themselves. Alcoholics will always find a way to drink, until they don't want to anymore.

Same for compulsive gamblers, drug addicts, sex addicts, food addicts, addiction addicts.

Laws don't mean anything to people that don't want to obey them. I've been drinking beer regularly since I was 16 years old. I drove several times without a license. I've smoked cigarettes underage, and "experimented" numerous times with other combustibles, and I can count on one hand how many times I was worried about the legalities of whatever activity that I was intent on.

Toker's gonna toke.
Drinker's gonna drink.
Gambler's gonna gamble.

By the way, I've been to cities all over the planet. Lots of them. Casinos are everywhere. Some are 5 star, some are ghetto.

I'm guessing Melnyk's vision is closer to the former.

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08-24-2013, 01:07 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Quo View Post
There are a variety of opinions on the financial state of the franchise, ranging from cynical disbelief to complete doom and gloom. This is my take:

I think a lot would have to go wrong for the team itself to ever be in threat of relocation. It would be absolute worst case scenario and I doubt its likelihood. I would hope that Melnyk would divest before it even came close to being that bad.

It really isn't that bad right now. We have an internal cap, yes, but also an outstanding team for the money we're spending. If they keep relatively within budget they'll probably be fine, praying to the money gods that the CDN$ stays at par with the US and the team continues to build on its success on the ice. Management has also indicated that there's a pinch of flexibility when it comes to deadline additions.

Long-term, it's a waiting game. Melnyk has refinanced the debt as of mid-season last year after struggling to do so immediately before and during the lockout. We'll see how things progress as ELC's expire and management is forced to spend more to keep the core intact and keep pace with the rising salary cap. I'll let someone who actually believes that Melnyk is draining the club of resources to finance his other losing ventures to explain that if they so wish. Either way, really nothing we can do. Looking forward to an exciting club this year.
Appreciate the analysis, wondering if the Sens should speed up the rebuild a bit and gun for the cup in the next two seasons, all those playoff gates can inject a whackload of cash that could help when its time to resign young core players coming off ELC's...Plus you guys so deserve the cup after all those playoff failures from the early 2000's.

One other thought on Alfredsson, just from a distanced view. It appears he screwed you. Going to Detroit, an old team albeit a fantastic franchise, is not any closer to the Cup than Ottawa is now, given that Detroit is so old, I see Alfedsson's motivations as more money driven than anything else.

I think Bobby Ryan will help you more. He will have more points then Alfredsson will.

In regards to him as leader, I don't know. I am surprised he didn't take more heat for those aforementioned playoff runs that ended way too early. When I think of the great captains, I can't imagine a Toews or Messier not holding someone like a floating Yashin accountable when you keep getting swept year after year by inferior teams.

I am going far back I realize, but his lousy attitude against Pittsburgh in the playoffs last year was less than impressive. If I were an Ottawa fan, my attitude would be don't let the door hit you on the way out.

One of the reasons the Jets locked up their core for a long time is because of our captain Andrew Ladd. He made it quite clear in the beginning when people were trashing Winnipeg as a city and no one would ever want to play here that if someone had a problem with it, they should hit the road and get the hell out right away.

I hope the Sens can use the Alfredsson crap as motivation coming into the upcoming year. Again, this is a view from a distance, I could be way way off in my analysis.

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08-24-2013, 01:09 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Beyond outdated morality concerns, what is the problem with a casino?

They are all over the place already.

You can't save people from themselves. Alcoholics will always find a way to drink, until they don't want to anymore.

Same for compulsive gamblers, drug addicts, sex addicts, food addicts, addiction addicts.

Laws don't mean anything to people that don't want to obey them. I've been drinking beer regularly since I was 16 years old. I drove several times without a license. I've smoked cigarettes underage, and "experimented" numerous times with other combustibles, and I can count on one hand how many times I was worried about the legalities of whatever activity that I was intent on.

Toker's gonna toke.
Drinker's gonna drink.
Gambler's gonna gamble.

By the way, I've been to cities all over the planet. Lots of them. Casinos are everywhere. Some are 5 star, some are ghetto.

I'm guessing Melnyk's vision is closer to the former.
Agreed.

If you have internet access and a credit card you have access to every online casino anyway. Might as well keep some of the money here, it's going to get spent regardless. I would prefer gambling money stay here and help local interests rather than be sent to Gibraltar.

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08-24-2013, 01:39 PM
  #193
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...Again, this is a view from a distance, I could be way way off in my analysis.
I think you'll find that many of us here agree with your assessment of the Alfredsson situation (myself among them), up to and including his leadership role. The latter argument is quite contentious, as you can imagine. Still more fans are willing to lay the entire responsibility for his departure at the feet of management, pointing to an alleged promise that they made to Alfie to recompense him for playing last year for a $1mm salary (the last year on a four year $19.5mm contract which, it was mutually agreed, Alfie would never see because he was planning to retire). This promise of questionable veracity makes very little sense to me. There's also a lack of trust in management for a host of reasons.

Good guy Ladd. Wonderful player.

(BTW...I hope the Jets give Eric O'Dell a shot to crack the lineup this year. Ottawa born and bred. Hope he sticks.)

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08-24-2013, 05:00 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Quo View Post
I think you'll find that many of us here agree with your assessment of the Alfredsson situation (myself among them), up to and including his leadership role. The latter argument is quite contentious, as you can imagine. Still more fans are willing to lay the entire responsibility for his departure at the feet of management, pointing to an alleged promise that they made to Alfie to recompense him for playing last year for a $1mm salary (the last year on a four year $19.5mm contract which, it was mutually agreed, Alfie would never see because he was planning to retire). This promise of questionable veracity makes very little sense to me. There's also a lack of trust in management for a host of reasons.

Good guy Ladd. Wonderful player.

(BTW...I hope the Jets give Eric O'Dell a shot to crack the lineup this year. Ottawa born and bred. Hope he sticks.)
Sounds like there is multiple layers to this story that a guy in BC would not be aware of. As for O'Dell, he has shot to make the team, we are thin at centre. His numbers on the Rock were great especially playing for terrible team. He has just a good a shot as anyone else.

That said, I never got around to seeing him play last year. I heard he was smart and kind of shifty out there.

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08-24-2013, 05:39 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by VictoriaJetsFan View Post
Appreciate the analysis, wondering if the Sens should speed up the rebuild a bit and gun for the cup in the next two seasons, all those playoff gates can inject a whackload of cash that could help when its time to resign young core players coming off ELC's...Plus you guys so deserve the cup after all those playoff failures from the early 2000's.

One other thought on Alfredsson, just from a distanced view. It appears he screwed you. Going to Detroit, an old team albeit a fantastic franchise, is not any closer to the Cup than Ottawa is now, given that Detroit is so old, I see Alfedsson's motivations as more money driven than anything else.

I think Bobby Ryan will help you more. He will have more points then Alfredsson will.

In regards to him as leader, I don't know. I am surprised he didn't take more heat for those aforementioned playoff runs that ended way too early. When I think of the great captains, I can't imagine a Toews or Messier not holding someone like a floating Yashin accountable when you keep getting swept year after year by inferior teams.

I am going far back I realize, but his lousy attitude against Pittsburgh in the playoffs last year was less than impressive. If I were an Ottawa fan, my attitude would be don't let the door hit you on the way out.

One of the reasons the Jets locked up their core for a long time is because of our captain Andrew Ladd. He made it quite clear in the beginning when people were trashing Winnipeg as a city and no one would ever want to play here that if someone had a problem with it, they should hit the road and get the hell out right away.

I hope the Sens can use the Alfredsson crap as motivation coming into the upcoming year. Again, this is a view from a distance, I could be way way off in my analysis.
Thanks for posting, good stuff. You're not way off, some here even share your exact beliefs. However, I'm going to nit-pick on some points more for Sens fans than yourself.

Alfredsson was never captain when Yashin was here. The Sens were never swept year after year against inferior teams. Since their return, the Sens have been in 23 playoff series. They were swept 3 times over that period in 1999, 2001 and 2008. Obviously they've never won the big prize but their playoff performance has been quite good comparatively, many teams would love to be there.

The final point is about spending to the cap. They don't need to right now, that's kind of Melnyk's reason for saying it, he couldn't say this stuff in two years time. It just happens the team's growth period corresponds with a low payroll. It would actually be foolish to spend more, that would mean trading off all the prospect depth for expensive, questionable players.

Murray traded some prospect depth to get Ryan and some folks here flipped, it seems like they want to keep all the prospects and spend at the same time. Sure, I guess they could have signed Clarkson, that would have increased their payroll but not really made the team much better.

If the young team performs well this year than I expect Murray will make another trade, established player for prospects at the deadline. Folks will freak out again but there is almost too much prospect depth and only so many professional contracts to use. That's what prospect depth should be used for.

The team's finances are just fine, it's just a combination of where the team is in development and Melnyk's political aspirations. I wouldn't spend to the cap right now if I were Murray and Melnyk either. See what happens in two years if the team does well and contracts need to be re-signed.

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08-24-2013, 05:53 PM
  #196
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Sounds like there is multiple layers to this story that a guy in BC would not be aware of. As for O'Dell, he has shot to make the team, we are thin at centre. His numbers on the Rock were great especially playing for terrible team. He has just a good a shot as anyone else.

That said, I never got around to seeing him play last year. I heard he was smart and kind of shifty out there.
It's an onion, I tell ya, an onion. An offseason for the ages, may we never live it again.

Good to hear about Eric.

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08-24-2013, 06:51 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by the doctor View Post
Thanks for posting, good stuff. You're not way off, some here even share your exact beliefs. However, I'm going to nit-pick on some points more for Sens fans than yourself.

Alfredsson was never captain when Yashin was here. The Sens were never swept year after year against inferior teams. Since their return, the Sens have been in 23 playoff series. They were swept 3 times over that period in 1999, 2001 and 2008. Obviously they've never won the big prize but their playoff performance has been quite good comparatively, many teams would love to be there.

etc
Alfredsson was named captain in 1999 and Yashin played the entire 2000-01 season.

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08-24-2013, 07:11 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by VictoriaJetsFan View Post
In regards to him as leader, I don't know. I am surprised he didn't take more heat for those aforementioned playoff runs that ended way too early. When I think of the great captains, I can't imagine a Toews or Messier not holding someone like a floating Yashin accountable when you keep getting swept year after year by inferior teams.

I am going far back I realize, but his lousy attitude against Pittsburgh in the playoffs last year was less than impressive. If I were an Ottawa fan, my attitude would be don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Thank you for your concern for out franchise, Certainly hoping that we can keep our core together brings back not so warm memories of the Rod Bryden days and the Yashin fiasco and the bankruptcy flap.

That the Sens came though all that as well as they did can in large part be attributed to Daniel Alfredsson.

The Jets will be very lucky if Ladd contributes half as much to your team as Alfredsson has for the Sens over the course of 17 years.

As has been mentioned, Yashin was himself captain when he held out on the Sens. And the Sens as juggernaut losing to an inferior team is largely a part of Leafs lore We lost to them but they were seeded ahead of us in all but one year year and also had about double the payroll.

Alfie learned to be captain over the course of his years here. He was the first European captain to lead his team into the Finals and the Sens have made the playoffs in something like the last 12 of 14 year under his leadership. Coach Maclean gave Alfie a lot of the credit for the Sens having the season they did last year with so many of the stars out due to injury.

Scotiabank place, now Canadian Tire Center has been called by some the house that Alfie built. .

That is why this hurts so much-not that he was a bad captain or a jerk that didn't care about the team, quite the opposite , he was the heart and soul of the team and an important part of the city as well.

Maybe one of his final gifts to the team is drawing attention to the "internal cap" and maybe instead of using his money woes as a lever to get the city to grant him a casino, Melnyk will loosen the purse strings sometime in the course of this year or next if only to prove Alfie wrong.

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08-25-2013, 03:28 AM
  #199
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Regarding Travis Yost writing about Eugene Melnyk's finances, really strange stuff going on now.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Hocke...2#.Uhm73EZzbmR

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08-25-2013, 03:42 AM
  #200
ReginKarlssonLehner
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Regarding Travis Yost writing about Eugene Melnyk's finances, really strange stuff going on now.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Hocke...2#.Uhm73EZzbmR
Lmfao, holy God, wtf is going on.

Yost is being targetted.

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