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Alfredsson talk II

View Poll Results: Alfie leaving, Who's fault?
Alfie 115 43.07%
Murray 15 5.62%
Melnyk 137 51.31%
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Old
08-20-2013, 12:19 AM
  #601
BonkTastic
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Originally Posted by source View Post
We're debating whether he lied about there being an agreement. The alleged contents of this agreement are definitely relevant to the discussion.
Well, then let's spell out exactly what Alfredssson said at the press conference:

1) “When I did my last contract for four years ending in the [2012-13] season, I was asked to help the team manage the salary cap by adding on an extra year to my contract. I agreed. Each side fully expected I would retire and not play the 2012-13 season,”

2) “However, after the 2012 season, I told the Sens I wanted to play another season. I also asked to look at a possible extension for this upcoming season at a fair amount to balance out the two years for both of us. They agreed."

Nowhere has it been said that Alfie and the Sens decided in 2008 that if Alfie played the 2012 year, they would sign an extension in 2013 that would balance it out.
There were two separate points: 1) "in 2008, we decided I wouldn't play the last year of the deal", and 2) "in 2012, I decided I would return and asked for the 2013 contract to balance out the 2012 one".

The question in hand is who is lying about the 2012 contract extension "agreement".

There are basically two schools of thought on this issue, IMO:
1) Alfie and Murray/Melnyk DID have an agreement to "make up" for his 2013 pay, which was broken by the Sens, which offended him and he left, or
2) Alfie thought he was owed a $7mil extension (which was not previously agreed to at any point by the Sens, be it in 2012 or any other time), and the Sens refusal to give it to him offended him and he left.

I think it's clear that he left due to money... the issue is did he leave because he didn't get the money that was promised to him, or because he didn't get the money he felt he was owed? Two very different things.

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08-20-2013, 12:21 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by moz View Post
I'm with Bonk on this, the alleged deal from 2008 involved only the addition of the $1 million year which would never be played to lower his cap hit. The idea of "compensating" Alfredsson for agreeing to this is a much more recent notion. If you can find any sources (even the Alfredsson press conference) that state it was ever brought up before the 2012 off-season, that would be helpful.

Trying to piece together a definitive story from the self-interested accounts we have so far is impossible, but regarding this issue of seeking a compensatorily inflated salary, it seems more like something Alfredsson concocted himself (perhaps after frustrated discussion with his agent, his wife etc.) about playing far under value for a year neither he nor the team expected him to play.

If I'm putting myself in Alfredsson's (frustrated/insulted/slighted) shoes, I can buy that in his view he signed a 3-year contract in 2008, and the fourth year was simply a paper favour to the Senators. He was perfectly fine with it until it actually came to be his salary, not a greyed-out footnote as he set off into retirement. In that regard I understand his logic of inflated compensation in 2013/14, but the whole issue is so messy and loophole-ridden and CBA-flouting that it feels like someone complaining about being shafted on their share of a bank robbery or something.

What I simply cannot logically parse is the claim (verified by Murray) that Alfredsson was seeking a multi-year contract extension last year, which as Bonk's Mullet and others have rightly pointed out was so blindingly inconsistent with his clear ambivalence about returning for even one season, never mind multiple.
1. If the agreement did happen, no one would ever speak to the media about its contents; it would be exceptionally unprofessional.

2. Alfredsson did the team a big time solid with that extra year, which seems to be breach of the CBA. I wish they'd investigate whether it was or not, and then not penalize us when they find out the truth.

3. Yeah, that alleged two-year offer didn't make a lot of sense to me either, because you can't front load a deal like that. It doesn't really mesh well with my idea of the situation, but I don't think it diminishes the reasonable inference that Alfredsson wasn't intending to play that 4th year way back when.

In the end, the guy was low-balled. Like Karlsson has said, the story is almost over for Alfredsson anyway, so the whole thing is a bit blown out of proportion. (Imagine if Karlsson walks when he becomes a UFA for the 1st time) And finally, it can't be forgotten that Alfredsson sees Detroit as a contender; I really believe he thinks so.

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08-20-2013, 12:27 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Well, then let's spell out exactly what Alfredssson said at the press conference:

1) “When I did my last contract for four years ending in the [2012-13] season, I was asked to help the team manage the salary cap by adding on an extra year to my contract. I agreed. Each side fully expected I would retire and not play the 2012-13 season,”

2) “However, after the 2012 season, I told the Sens I wanted to play another season. I also asked to look at a possible extension for this upcoming season at a fair amount to balance out the two years for both of us. They agreed."

Nowhere has it been said that Alfie and the Sens decided in 2008 that if Alfie played the 2012 year, they would sign an extension in 2013 that would balance it out.
There were two separate points: 1) "in 2008, we decided I wouldn't play the last year of the deal", and 2) "in 2012, I decided I would return and asked for the 2013 contract to balance out the 2012 one".

The question in hand is who is lying about the 2012 contract extension "agreement".

There are basically two schools of thought on this issue, IMO:
1) Alfie and Murray/Melnyk DID have an agreement to "make up" for his 2013 pay, which was broken by the Sens, which offended him and he left, or
2) Alfie thought he was owed a $7mil extension (which was not previously agreed to at any point by the Sens, be it in 2012 or any other time), and the Sens refusal to give it to him offended him and he left.

I think it's clear that he left due to money... the issue is did he leave because he didn't get the money that was promised to him, or because he didn't get the money he felt he was owed? Two very different things.
I have to leave now, but I remember him saying that the agreement was made originally and that it was reaffirmed in 2012. I'm almost positive this is in the audio.

And I agree with you exactly about how you characterized the issue.

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08-20-2013, 06:49 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Sonny Lamateena View Post
“However, after the 2012 season, I told the Sens I wanted to play another season. I also asked to look at a possible extension for this upcoming season at a fair amount to balance out the two years for both of us. They agreed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle13792933/

Did the Sens agree is or is he telling us a lie?
Saying I also asked to look at a possible extension for this upcoming season at a fair amount to balance out the two years for both of us. They agreed. is nowhere close to a definitely we will give you 2 years for 1 at whatever price you want.

It does not say anything definite either way. And again, we were on retirement watch this summer. They basically agreed to look into it (or, in other words, we'll see when we get there). Even in Alfredsson's own words it doesn't sound concrete.

Personally, I still think it's a misunderstanding on Alfredsson's side. Sens basically said Maybe, and Alfredsson heard Yes.


Last edited by Nac Mac Feegle: 08-20-2013 at 06:59 AM.
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08-20-2013, 07:34 AM
  #605
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EK on Losing Alfie

"I don't think it's that sudden and I'm just happy he's still playing," Karlsson added. "We have to move on and I think we have guys on the team that's ready to take the next step and as of right now everybody's pretty excited to focus on our game and becoming a better team."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=430100

Kinda interesting that EK didnt find his departure "sudden". I think the sens refusing to give an extension and making him play out the year at $1M sent Alf a bad signal.

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08-20-2013, 07:43 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by alfierulestheworld View Post
EK on Losing Alfie

"I don't think it's that sudden and I'm just happy he's still playing," Karlsson added. "We have to move on and I think we have guys on the team that's ready to take the next step and as of right now everybody's pretty excited to focus on our game and becoming a better team."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=430100

Kinda interesting that EK didnt find his departure "sudden". I think the sens refusing to give an extension and making him play out the year at $1M sent Alf a bad signal.
Well....we've been expecting Alfredsson's departure every summer for the past 3 years now. Only we expected it to be a retirement. It's been the longest farewell party ever.

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08-20-2013, 09:28 AM
  #607
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I fail to see how a verbal (mis?)understanding to look at a fair offer down the road amounts to a bloodoath to pay a 41 year old player, as good as he is, $7-8mm over one year. That's not fair. It's madness.

I also fail to see how a deal that, even with the final $1mm year, averages out to around $5mm per annum necessitates such exorbitance to even be considered.

Yet management seemed willing to get bent over once they sniffed out the situation (too late) to keep the "heart and soul of the franchise" a Senator for life.

You can also throw in that Alfie received an additional $2.09mm after signing his extension in 2009 (from the above link), for being so kind as to not exercise his option from his previous contract for the 2009 season...makes the total amount he received from the Sens over a four year period around $21mm and change or several hundred grand over $5mm per annum on the average.

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08-20-2013, 09:39 AM
  #608
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I think Alfie expected/wanted up front money with a signing bonus and/or performance bonuses to make up that $1M/year. It's unclear whether they actually promised him to give him this or promised to look into it but it seems he was pretty adamant on getting it. It's also odd that Alfie was asking for an extension before he even decided to play the following season.

The Sens didn't trust a client of JP Barry to not to take the upfront bonus money and ask for a trade. Murray said offered that he could trade Alfie by November/December if he wasn't satisfied with how competitive the team. My guess is the team didn't want to give him big money only to have him decide he wants to leave and leave them a few million dollars in the hole for nothing.

Friedman hinted at this and Melnyk mentioned Heatley again in his shot at Barry. There seems to be some bad blood there too.

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08-20-2013, 10:02 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
Well....we've been expecting Alfredsson's departure every summer for the past 3 years now. Only we expected it to be a retirement. It's been the longest farewell party ever.
Some have apparently forgotten about this. Every year for the past 3 we've all waited each summer wondering and hoping he'd come back. It was annoying so I'm glad that's over.

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08-20-2013, 12:24 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by alfierulestheworld View Post
EK on Losing Alfie

"I don't think it's that sudden and I'm just happy he's still playing," Karlsson added. "We have to move on and I think we have guys on the team that's ready to take the next step and as of right now everybody's pretty excited to focus on our game and becoming a better team."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=430100

Kinda interesting that EK didnt find his departure "sudden". I think the sens refusing to give an extension and making him play out the year at $1M sent Alf a bad signal.
This is so innacurate. The Sens didn't refuse to do anything. They negotiated with him and nothing came of it since Aflie was allegedly asking for $8M for one year. And they didn't MAKE him play out the year at $1M, he was contractually obligated to play unless he wanted to retire or get bought out and sign with another team.

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08-20-2013, 12:26 PM
  #611
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Fir anyone fussed about Alfie wearing the Sens sweater{

Sylvain St-Laurent @ Syl_St_Laurent 2h

Daniel Alfredsson ( @ DAlfredsson11 ) Sensplex back to this morning. He wears a sweater Players Association. # Sens # ledroit

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08-20-2013, 12:32 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Pancakes Pancakes View Post
This is so innacurate. The Sens didn't refuse to do anything. They negotiated with him and nothing came of it since Aflie was allegedly asking for $8M for one year. And they didn't MAKE him play out the year at $1M, he was contractually obligated to play unless he wanted to retire or get bought out and sign with another team.
Do you have a link to the alleged one year at 8 million?
I had understood he had asked for 2 years.

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08-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #613
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Alfie's earnings

I've been thinking about what JP Barry said about Alfredsson taking below market contracts to stay with the Senators so I looked at the top 60 scores in the league and ran some numbers for anyone active or retired within the last 5 years

I used this site for career earnings which only geos to 2011-12 so active players will have earned more
http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/salaries/1720

I used NHL.com for all other career stats

I sorted on cost per point
Name Earnings Points Games PPG Cost per Point
Recchi $50,900,000.00 1653 1533 1.08 $30,792.50
Brind'Amour $50,200,000.00 1184 1484 0.80 $42,398.65
Roenick $53,400,000.00 1216 1363 0.89 $43,914.47
Shanahan $60,900,000.00 1354 1524 0.89 $44,977.84
Selanne $68,800,000.00 1387 1430 0.97 $49,603.46
Modano $75,800,000.00 1374 1499 0.92 $55,167.39
Federov $65,500,000.00 1179 1248 0.94 $55,555.56
Thornton $63,400,000.00 1118 1125 0.99 $56,708.41
Sakic $93,100,000.00 1641 1378 1.19 $56,733.70
Alfredsson $63,200,000.00 1108 1178 0.94 $57,039.71
Sundin $79,700,000.00 1349 1346 1.00 $59,080.80
Jagr $101,400,000.00 1688 13914 0.12 $60,071.09



You can decide for yourself where he ranks amongst these hockey players, many of them captains, many individual trophy winners, many cup winners, but IMO he doesn't rank as underpaid in this crowd

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08-20-2013, 06:55 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
I've been thinking about what JP Barry said about Alfredsson taking below market contracts to stay with the Senators so I looked at the top 60 scores in the league and ran some numbers for anyone active or retired within the last 5 years

I used this site for career earnings which only geos to 2011-12 so active players will have earned more
http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/salaries/1720

I used NHL.com for all other career stats

I sorted on cost per point
Name Earnings Points Games PPG Cost per Point
Recchi $50,900,000.00 1653 1533 1.08 $30,792.50
Brind'Amour $50,200,000.00 1184 1484 0.80 $42,398.65
Roenick $53,400,000.00 1216 1363 0.89 $43,914.47
Shanahan $60,900,000.00 1354 1524 0.89 $44,977.84
Selanne $68,800,000.00 1387 1430 0.97 $49,603.46
Modano $75,800,000.00 1374 1499 0.92 $55,167.39
Federov $65,500,000.00 1179 1248 0.94 $55,555.56
Thornton $63,400,000.00 1118 1125 0.99 $56,708.41
Sakic $93,100,000.00 1641 1378 1.19 $56,733.70
Alfredsson $63,200,000.00 1108 1178 0.94 $57,039.71
Sundin $79,700,000.00 1349 1346 1.00 $59,080.80
Jagr $101,400,000.00 1688 13914 0.12 $60,071.09



You can decide for yourself where he ranks amongst these hockey players, many of them captains, many individual trophy winners, many cup winners, but IMO he doesn't rank as underpaid in this crowd
Agreed. I never thought he was 'underpaid'.

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08-20-2013, 07:01 PM
  #615
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Certainly interesting data, but it's hard to make a judgement on it when you consider how much contracts have increased in the past decade or so, especially coming out of the 05-06 lockout.

Some players there probably could have made more had they come out of the lockout in their prime, rather than on the tail-end of their careers (Looking at Roenick, Brind'Amour, Modano, Recchi, etc.)

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08-20-2013, 07:34 PM
  #616
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Pretty interesting, thanks for sharing.

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08-20-2013, 07:43 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Fir anyone fussed about Alfie wearing the Sens sweater{

Sylvain St-Laurent @ Syl_St_Laurent 2h

Daniel Alfredsson ( @ DAlfredsson11 ) Sensplex back to this morning. He wears a sweater Players Association. # Sens # ledroit
That's too bad.

I think it was a wonderful and subtle way to mend the fences a little bit.

Obviously the verbal jousting with Melynk isn't nearly as bad as the media made it out to be. He's still hanging out with the guys, playing in the Sens' facilities, and generally having a good time (as was everyone there).

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08-20-2013, 07:48 PM
  #618
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Some have apparently forgotten about this. Every year for the past 3 we've all waited each summer wondering and hoping he'd come back. It was annoying so I'm glad that's over.
Heart wrenching are the words I'd use for it.

Maybe it's a factor of being older, but the past tends to stick in my head a little too much these days. Hell, I can still hear Jim Van Horne at the '93 draft preview Big and strong, Niedermayer has speed to burn and 40 goal potential. Damn, and to think the class of '13 wasn't even born at that time.

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08-21-2013, 11:05 AM
  #619
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Well, then let's spell out exactly what Alfredssson said at the press conference:

1) “When I did my last contract for four years ending in the [2012-13] season, I was asked to help the team manage the salary cap by adding on an extra year to my contract. I agreed. Each side fully expected I would retire and not play the 2012-13 season,”

2) “However, after the 2012 season, I told the Sens I wanted to play another season. I also asked to look at a possible extension for this upcoming season at a fair amount to balance out the two years for both of us. They agreed."

Nowhere has it been said that Alfie and the Sens decided in 2008 that if Alfie played the 2012 year, they would sign an extension in 2013 that would balance it out.
There were two separate points: 1) "in 2008, we decided I wouldn't play the last year of the deal", and 2) "in 2012, I decided I would return and asked for the 2013 contract to balance out the 2012 one".

The question in hand is who is lying about the 2012 contract extension "agreement".

There are basically two schools of thought on this issue, IMO:
1) Alfie and Murray/Melnyk DID have an agreement to "make up" for his 2013 pay, which was broken by the Sens, which offended him and he left, or
2) Alfie thought he was owed a $7mil extension (which was not previously agreed to at any point by the Sens, be it in 2012 or any other time), and the Sens refusal to give it to him offended him and he left.

I think it's clear that he left due to money... the issue is did he leave because he didn't get the money that was promised to him, or because he didn't get the money he felt he was owed? Two very different things.
I don't believe either side is necessarily lying about the 2012 extension "agreement".

Garrioch reported there was contract extension discussions last year, also suggested the reason those talk stopped was due to the lockout and obvious concerns about what the new CBA might bring. As I recall he specifically stated the Sens were concerned about the potential changes to +35 contracts.

What those talks consisted of, what numbers were discussed nobody but Melnyk/Murray/Barry/Alfredsson have any real clue.

I never heard Murray deny there were discussions pertaining to an extension. To my knowledge Murray has kept his comments focused on what had transpired from the end of the season until July 5th.

Even when Melnyk pointed the finger of blame at Barry, I don't recall hearing him deny there had been extension talks that were put on hold.

Its been my experience it isn't always what is said, it is what isn't said.

In this case I just don't believe the Sens haven't engaged in the full conversation, nor would I have expected them to after Alfie signed with Detroit.

The Sens followed the script any reasonable public relations person would have laid out under the circumstances.

First, lay the blame at the feet of a person that has no support to be lost/gained from the fans, enter JP Barry. Second, say nice things about the departing player, lastly, be quiet.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 08-21-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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08-21-2013, 11:25 AM
  #620
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That's too bad.

I think it was a wonderful and subtle way to mend the fences a little bit.

Obviously the verbal jousting with Melynk isn't nearly as bad as the media made it out to be. He's still hanging out with the guys, playing in the Sens' facilities, and generally having a good time (as was everyone there).
The media was focusing on what Alfie didn't say, while Alfie praised Murray, he said nothing about Melnyk. The media read into this the possibility that Alfie has issues with EM.

IMO Alfie working out with his x-teammates and friends has little or nothing to do with any fence mending with the Sens, assuming it is even required.

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08-21-2013, 09:15 PM
  #621
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More drama!

Zack Smith
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Hey @DAlfredsson11 I heard you still use a shaving kit with the sens logo on it. #presstime

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08-21-2013, 09:20 PM
  #622
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More drama!

Zack Smith
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Hey @DAlfredsson11 I heard you still use a shaving kit with the sens logo on it. #presstime
at Methot's and Winchester's responses.

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08-21-2013, 09:20 PM
  #623
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More drama!

Zack Smith
‏@Smit_Treat15
Hey @DAlfredsson11 I heard you still use a shaving kit with the sens logo on it. #presstime
lol, good to see the guys having fun with it.

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08-21-2013, 09:21 PM
  #624
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Lol. Actually pretty funny Smith. No drama.

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08-21-2013, 09:31 PM
  #625
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More drama!

Zack Smith
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Hey @DAlfredsson11 I heard you still use a shaving kit with the sens logo on it. #presstime
Nice.

Anything that shames this city's god-awful sports media's habis of creating dramas that don't exist and/or blowing tiny things way out of proportion has my full support. #presstime

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