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Douglas Murray signed 1 year deal ($1.5m)

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08-22-2013, 01:51 PM
  #251
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Bouillon is probably the better "all-round" defenceman since he can skate and pass much better than Murray. But without a doubt Murray complements the 5 other guys better.
Which is great if you do speed and passing drills all day, but ultimately you actually have to play the game. Why don't all the best passers/skaters from junior leagues make it to the NHL as a matter of course?

Answer: there's so much more to hockey than assessing individual skills, assigning scores to the ones someone thinks are more important, and coming up with a video game rating.

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08-22-2013, 01:56 PM
  #252
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He probably was a NHLer at one point, but he's not now.

And an appeal to the authority of NHL GMs has to be considered shaky given the track record of some members of that group. Especially when big, hitty guys is concerned; this is hockey's anti-Moneyball, the traits that get valued out of proportion to their actual game impact.
I'm guessing you're a huge fan of possession stats like Corsi and Fenwick, and a big advocate of using such stats as THE measure of how effective a hockey player is. Hence why guys like Murray have no place on hockey teams, and why guys like Brandon Prust aren't perceived to be that valuable. In other words, physicality, grit and leadership are overrated.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I don't want a team full of plugs who are behemoths that can't skate. But I do see that the Habs need a guy like Murray while at the same time guys like Niklas Kronwall are not easy to find.

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08-22-2013, 01:56 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
He probably was a NHLer at one point, but he's not now.

And an appeal to the authority of NHL GMs has to be considered shaky given the track record of some members of that group. Especially when big, hitty guys is concerned; this is hockey's anti-Moneyball, the traits that get valued out of proportion to their actual game impact.
''probably''? Murray was once a very good defensemen in his role.

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08-22-2013, 01:56 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
He probably was a NHLer at one point, but he's not now.

And an appeal to the authority of NHL GMs has to be considered shaky given the track record of some members of that group. Especially when big, hitty guys is concerned; this is hockey's anti-Moneyball, the traits that get valued out of proportion to their actual game impact.
Oh, the fact that there's no correlation between increased block shots and better fortunes in the standings isn't lost on me (blocking more shots means facing more shots means less puck possession, etc). Fact is though, that players are called on to block shots during a hockey game, and I'm sure goalies/coaches prefer going into games prepared with guys who are good at it.

But now that you've said it a bunch of times, care to elaborate on exactly how/why Murray "isn't an NHLer anymore"?? I've seen you casually yet indirectly insert the word "liability" into the conversation, so I'm assuming you have some kind of evidence supporting this notion. Having played 58 NHL games last year probably isn't on your list, though...

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08-22-2013, 01:57 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
not really a NHL-quality defensman? Bouillon is probably better than him?

Dear God...first of all, everyone knows Murray isn't what he used to be. But to say he's not an NHL-quality defensman is disengenuous. Furthermore, if anyone isn't an NHL-quality defensman, it's Francis Bouillon out of anyone.

I can't understand how that guy has managed to get 3 seperate stints on the Habs...everytime I think they've gotten rid of him, he comes back.

Also, it can be argued that at times...Markov was a liability on the ice last year (especially the last 1/3 of the season). Does that mean he's useless?

Murray as an individua player, I kind of agree with you...he's really not that good anymore. But as one member of a defensive unit of 6-7-8 players. He fits in quite nicely on the Habs given how their built (mostly pucking moving dmen).

It's just a depth move...no need to look at it for more then what it is
Bouillon is definitely an NHL calibre d-man. It's a nice luxury to have a guy with his experience and versatility as a #5 or 6. He's very reliable defensively, smart with the puck and makes very few mistakes, not sure how anybody here can hate him at 1.5 mil a year. He's more reliable than most guys making 2-3 mil/year.

Not sure why anybody feels the need to knock Bouillon to bump up Murray. Both have their uses, Murray needs fewer minutes and more specific roles(PK/puck mover with him/clearing the crease) while Bouillon can be trusted in more minutes/situations.

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08-22-2013, 01:57 PM
  #256
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You dont evalaute players talents in a vacuum. We NEEDED a guy who can clear the front of the net, who is going to do that ?
I don't particularly think that was a "need" that needed to be "filled".

But even if it is, well, a guy who isn't an effective NHL player is never going to fill any kind of need effectively for a NHL team no matter what other qualities. Murray makes his team worse when he's on the ice compared to virtually any other NHL defenseman. That's not something he's going to be able to make up for by "filling a need".

He's one of the worst defensemen in the league, folks. That's going to overwhelm any kind of marginal value he brings by being different from the guys the Habs already have.

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08-22-2013, 01:58 PM
  #257
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I absolutely love this signing. There is nothing to complain about. I actually was right about a prediction for once, I was sure Murray would be a Hab.. It just took longer than I expected so I'm a little surprised it actually happened now.

Good stuff MB! No risk at all, no cost, and addresses a need.

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08-22-2013, 01:59 PM
  #258
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MathMan I don't mean to single you out but as you are offering an authoritative and instructional position I must raise this question: what is your ideal, reasonable, seven-man defense given the major core we have now (so: Subban, Markov, Gorges and an injured Emelin - the other three can be whoever you think can reasonably be/have been acquired).

Because I believe in chemistry and build as much as I do in advanced stats and my eyes told me that we lack a crease-clearer on the PK. Also that the build-up of the current team in terms of depth and role-players is very skewed toward "shrimpy and useless" and some physical presence is required. The talent positions (top6/9 fwds, top3 dmen, goalie) are rather set and we look okay there but can definitely improve - I just think that we're in trouble when it comes to the role players we have.

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08-22-2013, 01:59 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Murray makes his team worse when he's on the ice compared to virtually any other NHL defenseman.
Sweet opinion. Now back it up. I'm going golfing soon, but I'll get some popcorn ready when I get back.

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08-22-2013, 01:59 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Which is great if you do speed and passing drills all day, but ultimately you actually have to play the game. Why don't all the best passers/skaters from junior leagues make it to the NHL as a matter of course?

Answer: there's so much more to hockey than assessing individual skills, assigning scores to the ones someone thinks are more important, and coming up with a video game rating.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm all for the move but honestly Bouillon is probably somewhat better overall than Murray. However Murray is the better defensive d-man, and our biggest weakness was the quality of our defensive defenceman. We don't need Bouillon's offensive talents because we have Subban, Markov and Diaz. So Murray is a much better fit for our D than Bouillon, but that doesn't mean he's the better player, just that he's better for us.

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08-22-2013, 02:00 PM
  #261
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I like it. Finally got a crease clearing dman.

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08-22-2013, 02:01 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Not to mention it taking him until August to get a contract...
Kadri is still unsigned, I guess he sucks?

Subban only signed after the season started last year?

Just because a guy isn't signed doesn't make him useless. With the cap dropping this year there was only a finite amount of money to be spent on FA's and it went pretty quick. That's why guys like Murray are signing late and for less than they made last year. Morrow probably will also.

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08-22-2013, 02:03 PM
  #263
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How much do you want to bet that at some point early in the season we see Prust, White/Moen, Parros, Cube and Murray on the ice at the same time against Ottawa, Toronto and Boston? Not an intimidating group, but certainly one that won't get blown away.

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08-22-2013, 02:04 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I don't particularly think that was a "need" that needed to be "filled".

But even if it is, well, a guy who isn't an effective NHL player is never going to fill any kind of need effectively for a NHL team no matter what other qualities. Murray makes his team worse when he's on the ice compared to virtually any other NHL defenseman. That's not something he's going to be able to make up for by "filling a need".

He's one of the worst defensemen in the league, folks. That's going to overwhelm any kind of marginal value he brings by being different from the guys the Habs already have.

Again, you can choose to essentially set the lineup anyway you like but the success of pairing a PMD and a SAH cannot be denied.
With emelin out and tinordi being so green we had ZERO presence in front of price. Who is going to fear riding the crease in front of price if they have to battle with bouillion/diaz/markov or georges ?
the answer is no one. I suspect OUR front nine would have no problems against out D.

Just because out forwards wont ( for the most part) stand at the top of the crease does not mean that other teams wont. they will and they do. look at the good defensive pairings in the league, how many of them have the softness of the habs ? Very few.

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08-22-2013, 02:05 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm all for the move but honestly Bouillon is probably somewhat better overall than Murray. However Murray is the better defensive d-man, and our biggest weakness was the quality of our defensive defenceman. We don't need Bouillon's offensive talents because we have Subban, Markov and Diaz. So Murray is a much better fit for our D than Bouillon, but that doesn't mean he's the better player, just that he's better for us.
Wait, wait, wait. You just used "offensive talents" and "Bouillon" in the same sentence. We're not going to get very far down this tangent if that's what you think Bouillon brings to the table.

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08-22-2013, 02:05 PM
  #266
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THIS fills a need! LOVE IT!

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08-22-2013, 02:06 PM
  #267
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Ok Bergie I am hooked on this drug. How about upsizing Gorges or Diaz before Labour Day. Please and thanks in advance.

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08-22-2013, 02:07 PM
  #268
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I dont know about this. Hopefully he will get the defence more solid, but he is slow and take many bad decisions. Maybe he can win some fights or two for the Habs, but he shure do talk a lot more.

But on the other hand, he is kind of cheap, and maybe a good replacer for Emelin. Hopefully im wrong, and he will be a very good move from Bergevin. But i would not get my hopes up

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08-22-2013, 02:07 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
People keep forgetting about Nygren, too. He's right there with Beaulieu in line for one of those future RH defense positions, imo.
You're right, I did forget him. I don't know much about him also, but I hear good things

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08-22-2013, 02:09 PM
  #270
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How much do you want to bet that at some point early in the season we see Prust, White/Moen, Parros, Cube and Murray on the ice at the same time against Ottawa, Toronto and Boston? Not an intimidating group, but certainly one that won't get blown away.

Meh, it could happen but it wont be like the doboer/torts deal. We dont need a singular movement to prove we have arrived in terms of team toughness with a line brawl. And if it does not go as planned and we get another boston or ottawa situation, it sets us back. I'd much rather we be tough when we need to be, not to send some sort of message " look were not soft anymore".

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08-22-2013, 02:10 PM
  #271
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Oh, the fact that there's no correlation between increased block shots and better fortunes in the standings isn't lost on me (blocking more shots means facing more shots means less puck possession, etc). Fact is though, that players are called on to block shots during a hockey game, and I'm sure goalies/coaches prefer going into games prepared with guys who are good at it.
It's fine to block a shot when you get into a situation where you have the opportunity, but it's better not to get into that situation in the first place. If all you can do is block shots, you will end up with lots of blocked shots but that doesn't mean you're being effective.

Blocking shots is a bit of a last resort, defensively. It's always better to regain the puck before things get to that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But now that you've said it a bunch of times, care to elaborate on exactly how/why Murray "isn't an NHLer anymore"?? I've seen you casually yet indirectly insert the word "liability" into the conversation, so I'm assuming you have some kind of evidence supporting this notion. Having played 58 NHL games last year probably isn't on your list, though...
I could pull out the ghastly possession numbers out of behindthenet, but Habs Eyes on the Prize should have a nice summary of the ugliness before long.

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08-22-2013, 02:10 PM
  #272
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In Murray's case, they absolutely do.

But it makes intuitive sense, anyway: a hit is only legal if the target has the puck. Which means you don't. Therefore lots of hits means lots of instances that you don't have the puck.

This is not to say that separating a guy from the puck using a hit is bad. But you don't want it to be the only thing you do.
No, it really isn't. In fact, if that's all he does, it's worth the money. Murray brings size, meanness and experience for $1.5M on a 1-year deal. What's the problem?? Jeez Louise, what does a GM have to do to get a little credit from this team's fan-base?

All anyone's been writing on these boards for the last 2 months is, "we have to get bigger!" Fine - we just did!! Be happy

All we're missing now is a face-off specialist. If MB lands one, we're set to start the season.

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08-22-2013, 02:12 PM
  #273
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Wait, wait, wait. You just used "offensive talents" and "Bouillon" in the same sentence. We're not going to get very far down this tangent if that's what you think Bouillon brings to the table.
Compared to Murray Bouillon is an offensive Juggernaught.

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08-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #274
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Kadri is still unsigned, I guess he sucks?

Subban only signed after the season started last year?

Just because a guy isn't signed doesn't make him useless. With the cap dropping this year there was only a finite amount of money to be spent on FA's and it went pretty quick. That's why guys like Murray are signing late and for less than they made last year. Morrow probably will also.
I remember a guy named Dominic Moore signed with Tampa in October. Four months later Tampa traded him for a 2nd round pick.

For some people nothing really happens after July 5.

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08-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Again, you can choose to essentially set the lineup anyway you like but the success of pairing a PMD and a SAH cannot be denied.
With emelin out and tinordi being so green we had ZERO presence in front of price. Who is going to fear riding the crease in front of price if they have to battle with bouillion/diaz/markov or georges ?
the answer is no one. I suspect OUR front nine would have no problems against out D.

Just because out forwards wont ( for the most part) stand at the top of the crease does not mean that other teams wont. they will and they do. look at the good defensive pairings in the league, how many of them have the softness of the habs ? Very few.
Good post, but seriously?


I'm feeling good about the signing, as long as Murray plays 3rd pairing minutes and we don't over use him. But hes not french/undersized, so I don't think that will be an issue with Therrien.

Its good to pick up another physical presence, seeing as Emelin is out and Tinner can get more experience as a top guy in Hamilton.

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