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Douglas Murray signed 1 year deal ($1.5m)

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Old
08-22-2013, 01:14 PM
  #276
MathMan
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Again, you can choose to essentially set the lineup anyway you like but the success of pairing a PMD and a SAH cannot be denied.
It works, generally because the PMD is carrying the SAH.

Markov-Komisarek did a decent impression of a first pairing, and it certainly wasn't Komi pulling the bus. Same with Subban-Gill.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
With emelin out and tinordi being so green we had ZERO presence in front of price.
I'm just not convinced this is a dire need. For one thing, I'd rather have the puck so clearing the crease does not become an issue. For another, a lot of extremely effective first pairings do not have a crease-clearer, and those are the guys who play against the opposition's top offensive guys.

Yeah, a lot of third-pairing guys are big, hitty guys in the Douglas Murray mold, but they're third-pairing guys for a reason.

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08-22-2013, 01:15 PM
  #277
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Nothing fancy about his game. He hits, he clears the front of the net, he`s responsible in his own end. Add to that that he`s cheap and on a 1 year contract. I dont get how any Habs fan can hate this signing. Perfect depth seigning by Bergervin.

Murray will make the top 6 solely on his size and grit. Once Emelin back, I still predict he will be in and out of the lineup on a rotation probably with Diaz.

Drewiske or Bouillon will probably be waived if Tirnordi is too good to send down to the AHL. I gotta admit, one more year there wouldnt hurt him. Cant rush dmen like him.

So we were exposed last year. We needed size, we needed toughness. MB adds Parros and Murray. If Moen wakes up and White plays the role of the pest we wouldnt be pushed around no more.

Say what you want about MB, but he is building this team though the draft and solid depth pick ups. Might not be the flashy UFA or the big name traded to our team but soon enough will have such a solid core that we'll only be missing fillers.


Last edited by pezcore: 08-22-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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Old
08-22-2013, 01:15 PM
  #278
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...so this Murray guy is a young speedster who cant even have a Swedish sounding name right.

Fascinating...

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08-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Compared to Murray Bouillon is an offensive Juggernaught.
One would assume that such a contention would be borne out in the offensive stats... but it's not. Both guys are good for about a goal/year at this point, and <0.20 PPG production rates.

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08-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #280
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Kadri is still unsigned, I guess he sucks?

Subban only signed after the season started last year?

Just because a guy isn't signed doesn't make him useless. With the cap dropping this year there was only a finite amount of money to be spent on FA's and it went pretty quick. That's why guys like Murray are signing late and for less than they made last year. Morrow probably will also.
Difference is Kadri and Subban are/were RFA. It doesn't tell you anything about the interest of the other teams.

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08-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #281
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Good post, but seriously?


I'm feeling good about the signing, as long as Murray plays 3rd pairing minutes and we don't over use him. But hes not french/undersized, so I don't think that will be an issue with Therrien.

Its good to pick up another physical presence, seeing as Emelin is out and Tinner can get more experience as a top guy in Hamilton.
i agree with limiting his minutes and I like georges as a hes pretty steady and reliable, but I dont consider him a guy whose a beast clearing people from the from of the net.

I should have switched georges with Drewiske, who I'm pretty sure nobody fears riding the crease.

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08-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
One would assume that such a contention would be borne out in the offensive stats... but it's not. Both guys are good for about a goal/year at this point, and <0.20 PPG production rates.
Do Bouillon's own goals count?

If so, he was closer to 6 goals last year.

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08-22-2013, 01:20 PM
  #283
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It's fine to block a shot when you get into a situation where you have the opportunity, but it's better not to get into that situation in the first place. If all you can do is block shots, you will end up with lots of blocked shots but that doesn't mean you're being effective.

Blocking shots is a bit of a last resort, defensively. It's always better to regain the puck before things get to that point.
You just used more words explaining this than I used to tell you that you need not explain this to me, lol.

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I could pull out the ghastly possession numbers out of behindthenet, but Habs Eyes on the Prize should have a nice summary of the ugliness before long.
Oh, I'm sure you'll find a metric that suggests the teams he has played on shouldn't have done as well as they did using him in as big of a role as they did... but they did.

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08-22-2013, 01:26 PM
  #284
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I'm guessing you're a huge fan of possession stats like Corsi and Fenwick, and a big advocate of using such stats as THE measure of how effective a hockey player is. Hence why guys like Murray have no place on hockey teams, and why guys like Brandon Prust aren't perceived to be that valuable. In other words, physicality, grit and leadership are overrated.
Prust is actually a fairly decent hockey player. Not quite worth what the Habs pay him, but he's a quality grinder with real defensive value.

But intangibles are overrated, yes, and you don't need to be a fancystatter to recognize that. Especially as a Habs fans. Montreal has been trading away tons of quality players who went on to be valuable to other orgs, because of intangibles.

Physicality is useful, but not for its own sake. The goal is still to outscore the other guy. Physical methods of doing that (generally by using it to separate the other guy from the puck) are extremely valuable. Zdeno Chara is one of the, if not the, best defenseman on Earth in part because of his ability to do that. And in part because he can do way more than that.

Physicality for the sake of hitting guys, correspondingly, has very little value.

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08-22-2013, 01:30 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
One would assume that such a contention would be borne out in the offensive stats... but it's not. Both guys are good for about a goal/year at this point, and <0.20 PPG production rates.
You mean stats like points per game:

Bouillon
'13 0.1875
'12 0.1666
Career: 0.1975

Murray
'13 0.1395
'12 0.0666
Career: 0.1333

So Bouillon is about 50% better on offence than Murray is.

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08-22-2013, 01:30 PM
  #286
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From Sharks blog Fear the Fin: this piece, from last summer, does a pretty good job of explaining the issues with Douglas Murray, even before his tough 2013:

http://www.fearthefin.com/2012/5/24/...douglas-murray

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08-22-2013, 01:31 PM
  #287
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it's meh signing but I don't see any risk really... 1 year contract and a relatively low cap hit.

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08-22-2013, 01:33 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It works, generally because the PMD is carrying the SAH.

Markov-Komisarek did a decent impression of a first pairing, and it certainly wasn't Komi pulling the bus. Same with Subban-Gill.



I'm just not convinced this is a dire need. For one thing, I'd rather have the puck so clearing the crease does not become an issue. For another, a lot of extremely effective first pairings do not have a crease-clearer, and those are the guys who play against the opposition's top offensive guys.

Yeah, a lot of third-pairing guys are big, hitty guys in the Douglas Murray mold, but they're third-pairing guys for a reason.

I dont get this carrying idea. all this means is that the metrics you are using simply favor one player over the other ( i.e if you value what PMD's do more than SAH, its no surprise that the analysis favors PMD). What metrics are you using for SAH ? Do you count the number of guys they knock on their keisters ? The way they stay back as PMD pinch and accrue more offensive metrics ?

Im not against analytics, they have their place. But SAH and PMD have different sets of skills, and my experience is that having one of each is generally the best way to cover all situations. Its not surprising that many of the best pairing use this format, for example teams with 2 SAH and 2 PMD's dont ice them together.

I know that a lot of people disparage analytics by asking " did you watch the games" as some sort of knock. I'm not doing that., really I'm not. But i dont think that the game can be accurately distilled to simple statistics, no matter how advanced. And ( again I'm not saying this to disparage you in any way) but watching the last 10 games of last season and the playoffs, I dont see how ANYONE could not clearly see we needed someone to move people in front our net.

I guess this puts me in the brian burke camp.

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08-22-2013, 01:36 PM
  #289
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Oh yes.



This guy's tough.

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08-22-2013, 01:38 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Prust is actually a fairly decent hockey player. Not quite worth what the Habs pay him, but he's a quality grinder with real defensive value.

But intangibles are overrated, yes, and you don't need to be a fancystatter to recognize that. Especially as a Habs fans. Montreal has been trading away tons of quality players who went on to be valuable to other orgs, because of intangibles.

Physicality is useful, but not for its own sake. The goal is still to outscore the other guy. Physical methods of doing that (generally by using it to separate the other guy from the puck) are extremely valuable. Zdeno Chara is one of the, if not the, best defenseman on Earth in part because of his ability to do that. And in part because he can do way more than that.

Physicality for the sake of hitting guys, correspondingly, has very little value.
I try to understand your POV, but quite frankly I have a Mathman bald spot from some of the scratching. Your arguments revolve around possession and how a lot of the game skills are unnecessary or superfluous when your team has the puck. But aside from a 50/50 split in possession after faceoff, how does a team regain possession once lost. A lot of it has to do with battles of physical strength, intimidation, forcing errors through the threat of impact and quite frankly there is no measurement for that. There is no measurement for a lot of things that still exist.

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08-22-2013, 01:38 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Prust is actually a fairly decent hockey player. Not quite worth what the Habs pay him, but he's a quality grinder with real defensive value.

But intangibles are overrated, yes, and you don't need to be a fancystatter to recognize that. Especially as a Habs fans. Montreal has been trading away tons of quality players who went on to be valuable to other orgs, because of intangibles.

Physicality is useful, but not for its own sake. The goal is still to outscore the other guy. Physical methods of doing that (generally by using it to separate the other guy from the puck) are extremely valuable. Zdeno Chara is one of the, if not the, best defenseman on Earth in part because of his ability to do that. And in part because he can do way more than that.

Physicality for the sake of hitting guys, correspondingly, has very little value.
Brandon prust is likely the best 10 million the habs have spent in a LONG LONG time. I dont see anyone saying he's overpaid.

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08-22-2013, 01:42 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
From Sharks blog Fear the Fin: this piece, from last summer, does a pretty good job of explaining the issues with Douglas Murray, even before his tough 2013:

http://www.fearthefin.com/2012/5/24/...douglas-murray
It does? Here's the groundbreaking conclusion it reaches:

Quote:
I'm at a loss to really explain this preciptous drop in Murray's play.
What a revelatory conclusion. The misspelled word really drives their point home. I was moved to tears.

The author continues, suggesting:

Quote:
Put it all together and you've got a defensive defenseman who does more to hurt than help his team when deployed in more difficult defensive situations.
The key here is the words when deployed in more difficult defensive situations. Presumably, the Canadiens are not signing Murray at the end of August on a 1 year/$1.5m contract to deploy him in difficult defensive situations.

If anything, your article confirms what most people here are acknowledging - that Murray's best years are past him, and that he definitely shouldn't be regarded as more than a depth guy. Which I don't think anyone is doing. This article explains that he was bad, not why he was bad.

But if the Canadiens can manage his icetime and match-ups smartly (as the Sharks might have failed to do that year, which is understandable), they can get reasonable value from Murray for the money they spent on him.


Last edited by hototogisu: 08-22-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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08-22-2013, 01:44 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Meh, it could happen but it wont be like the doboer/torts deal. We dont need a singular movement to prove we have arrived in terms of team toughness with a line brawl. And if it does not go as planned and we get another boston or ottawa situation, it sets us back. I'd much rather we be tough when we need to be, not to send some sort of message " look were not soft anymore".
In the event a game is out of hand one way or the other, the Orr debacle and the Ottawa line brawl beating that took place last year has been suitably addressed. We are still small in the top 6 but we have guys that can look out for them a little better.

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08-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
You mean stats like points per game:

Bouillon
'13 0.1875
'12 0.1666
Career: 0.1975

Murray
'13 0.1395
'12 0.0666
Career: 0.1333

So Bouillon is about 50% better on offence than Murray is.
Yes, I totally mean stats which basically amount to someone with 3 points being an offensive juggernaut, while someone with 2 points isn't...

And let's be careful to remain as close to the present as possible, please. I don't think considering Bouillon's 22 points in the first post-lockout year as contributing much to what we're discussing, for example. And what about the playoffs?

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08-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
From Sharks blog Fear the Fin: this piece, from last summer, does a pretty good job of explaining the issues with Douglas Murray, even before his tough 2013:

http://www.fearthefin.com/2012/5/24/...douglas-murray
Funny it talks a lot about his partnership with Burns and how Murray was a bad fit for Burns. Isn't the plan for Burns to be a full-time forward now? Perhaps Burns was the bad fit.

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08-22-2013, 01:50 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
In the event a game is out of hand one way or the other, the Orr debacle and the Ottawa line brawl beating that took place last year has been suitably addressed. We are still small in the top 6 but we have guys that can look out for them a little better.
to be honest, if its going to go down I'd much rather not doing a line brawl but going back to back ( to back) the way that Boston and Dallas did a while ago.

I agree we are getting tougher to play against and hopefully we can give our top 6 more room but that is going to be hard from the bench ( in most cases). I just dont want to have a false sense of courage now, we are tougher but we still have a ways to go against a lot of teams in our own division. baby steps.

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08-22-2013, 01:52 PM
  #297
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I dont get this carrying idea. all this means is that the metrics you are using simply favor one player over the other ( i.e if you value what PMD's do more than SAH, its no surprise that the analysis favors PMD). What metrics are you using for SAH ? Do you count the number of guys they knock on their keisters ? The way they stay back as PMD pinch and accrue more offensive metrics ?
Question for you: how many top #1 D-men are PMDs, and how many are SAHs? How many of the SAHs you can list can also move the puck effectively?

If you have a pairing of two SAHs, how well does it work? Do two PMDs work better than two SAHs?

The best defensemen in the game can move the puck. Players who can't move the puck are always complementary at best.

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I guess this puts me in the brian burke camp.
That's... not something to be proud of.

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08-22-2013, 01:52 PM
  #298
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As long as he not made to play outside of his capabilities Murray should be fine. Gives the D much needed diversity.

I don't see that as meaning Tinordi will end up back in Hamilton. He looked good in his time with the habs in a limited role. If he performs in camp he will be on the team. Hopefully this means that Drewiske, Boullion and Murray will be rotating. It's better have a rotation of these guys for the bottom pairing that banking on Weber.

Seeing as how the team has spend 3.6 million on depth D and 4 million on Briere while still having cap room, looking back in hindsight, I would have much rather kept Cole then bring in Briere. Cap space really isn't an issue.

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08-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
IThe key here is the words when deployed in more difficult defensive situations. Presumably, the Canadiens are not signing Murray at the end of August on a 1 year/$1.5m contract to deploy him in difficult defensive situations.
The problem is that the article was written in the summer of 2012. Then he spent 2013 being put in much easier defensive minutes, and got dismantled with them.

The Sharks tried to manage his icetime and matchups, and it didn't help. So they found a taker for him and traded him, even though they were buyers otherwise.

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08-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #300
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Wait... are there really people bashing Bergevin for this acquisition?

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