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Two trades that would change our future

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Old
08-21-2013, 04:38 AM
  #26
Gnashville
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Originally Posted by predshabs View Post
I added a little to the original trades above.

Lets take a look at what we take away from this team and what we add to this team.

Take aways.

Colin Wilson-age 23. Has never had more than 16 goals in a preds uniform.
Roman Josi-age 23. Good Defensemen with a pretty good cap hit.
Colton Sissons -age 19. Very good prospect. Can play hockey.
Nick Spaling-age 24. Good third line Center. His best year was 10 goals.
Taylor Beck-age 22. Good size. Had 7 points in 16 games with Nashville last year.
2014 1st round pick.
2014 2nd round pick.
2015 3rd round pick.

Additions.

Derek Stepan-age 23. Would be the top line Center we need. In only three NHL seasons he has put up 56 goals and 84 assists. Currently a RFA.

Josh Gorges-age 29. Has blocked 366 shots over the past two seasons. Would be a good fit with Weber. Was paired with Weber for two or three seasons on the Kelowna Rockets. Would be a solid Defensive Defenseman type partner for Weber. 5 years left on current deal at $3.9 Million per year.

Max Pacioretty- age 24. 2011-2012 33 goals 32 assists 79 games played. 2012-2013 15 goals 24 assists 44 games played. 6 years left on current deal at $4.5 Million per year.

Sebastian Collberg-age 19. Third best Swedish player from the 2012 draft. The group was called the "three bergs". We have two of them already in Forsberg and Aberg, I would love to add the third. This would help with depth.

Why this works.

Some people are backing off Wilson goin much higher that he currently is producing.
Spaling is probably gone anyways.
No whole left on defense like some say.Gorges signed for five more years
Stepan would be our #1Center for years to come. Currently a RFA.
Pacioretty would be on his wing for years to come. Signed already for six more years.
Beck a good prospect but Montreal will need size back in the trade due to Pacioretty size.
Sissons and the first round draft pick might sting a little bit but these trades will not put this team ten years further down the tubes.

Pacioretty-Stepan-Forsberg
Stalberg-Fisher/Watson-Hornqvist

Weber-Gorges
Jones-Ekholm
Klein-Bartley

Rinne

You can fill in the rest of the roster yourself. This would be the best top six we have had since the Kariya years. And These players will be around for along time they are still young.

Plus this still leaves players like
Smith
Bourque
Aberg
Salomaki
Budish
Shalla
Cehlin
Leipsic
in the system.
Remember we did not have a first round pick two years in a row 2011-2012(Fisher and Gaustad trades) but we traded for the 11th overall pick from the 2012 draft in Filip Forsberg.
Thankfully you are not the Predators GM. This would Put us in the McDavid sweepstakes for sure (if we are not there already). That could be the change you are looking for with these trades. Trotz would run McDavid into the ground though. Basically you are looking for 5 years of total suckatude, plus by passing the 2014 draft and focusing on 2015. When comparing Stephan to Wilson also factor in system, and linemates. Stephan's stats are better because he does not play in Nashville for Trotz. Preds could be picking top 5 again and you want to trade that picks for a slightly better player. Take out the 1st and this becomes better.

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Old
08-21-2013, 05:30 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predshabs View Post
I added a little to the original trades above.

Lets take a look at what we take away from this team and what we add to this team.

Take aways.

Colin Wilson-age 23. Has never had more than 16 goals in a preds uniform.
Roman Josi-age 23. Good Defensemen with a pretty good cap hit.
Colton Sissons -age 19. Very good prospect. Can play hockey.
Nick Spaling-age 24. Good third line Center. His best year was 10 goals.
Taylor Beck-age 22. Good size. Had 7 points in 16 games with Nashville last year.
2014 1st round pick.
2014 2nd round pick.
2015 3rd round pick.

Additions.

Derek Stepan-age 23. Would be the top line Center we need. In only three NHL seasons he has put up 56 goals and 84 assists. Currently a RFA.

Josh Gorges-age 29. Has blocked 366 shots over the past two seasons. Would be a good fit with Weber. Was paired with Weber for two or three seasons on the Kelowna Rockets. Would be a solid Defensive Defenseman type partner for Weber. 5 years left on current deal at $3.9 Million per year.

Max Pacioretty- age 24. 2011-2012 33 goals 32 assists 79 games played. 2012-2013 15 goals 24 assists 44 games played. 6 years left on current deal at $4.5 Million per year.

Sebastian Collberg-age 19. Third best Swedish player from the 2012 draft. The group was called the "three bergs". We have two of them already in Forsberg and Aberg, I would love to add the third. This would help with depth.

Why this works.

Some people are backing off Wilson goin much higher that he currently is producing.
Spaling is probably gone anyways.
No whole left on defense like some say.Gorges signed for five more years
Stepan would be our #1Center for years to come. Currently a RFA.
Pacioretty would be on his wing for years to come. Signed already for six more years.
Beck a good prospect but Montreal will need size back in the trade due to Pacioretty size.
Sissons and the first round draft pick might sting a little bit but these trades will not put this team ten years further down the tubes.

Pacioretty-Stepan-Forsberg
Stalberg-Fisher/Watson-Hornqvist

Weber-Gorges
Jones-Ekholm
Klein-Bartley

Rinne

You can fill in the rest of the roster yourself. This would be the best top six we have had since the Kariya years. And These players will be around for along time they are still young.
I still wouldn't do it:
While Stepan is the better player now, i believe that Wilson will be better in the Future. We got a taste of what he can become until he got injured.
stepan is a Player who only has one great tool, his Vision/IQ.
Wilson also has a high offensive IQ and vision, maybe not as good as Stepan, but still high. AND Wilson is the better Stickhandler and Shooter.
if he just could skate better...but Stepan can't skate either so it doesn't matter in this case.
So Wilson has the better tools, he just need to put it all together.
So again Stepan is better right now but that can change as soon as next season.
Maybe it won't change but even now the difference between the two is Not a First.

I also wouldn't do the second deal.
While Pacioretty would be a huge boost for our Top6 without a doubt, the price is too high and it would create a big whole at defense.
I would rather hold on Beck, who i know will very likely never be as good as Pacioretty, but maybe a soild 50 point winger.
That's not worth giving up Josi, who is the Perfect Partner for Weber and is signed longterm at a great price.
Gorges is not a good Partner for Weber because Weber needs a PMD as his Partner.
Weber is elite at many things but moving the Puck from the D-to the O-Zone isn't one of his strenghts.
And let's assume Ekholm or Jones would play with Weber so that he has his PMD, than Gorges would be on the second pair with Klein.
We just saw with Klein and hannan how Klein plays with another defensive dman. sure gorges is better than hannan but you should get the point.
And we already pay enough to our 4th Line, so i don't want gorges on our third pair with that contract.
an also overpaid bottom pair would be to much

Collberg would be a nice prospect i'm Not sure his game will translate to the NHL.
He played great against players of his own age but against man, both forsberg and Aberg played better.

and you need more than a good top6 to have a good offense.
A good PMD defense is very important as is secondary scoring.
Look at Colorado last season, good Top 6 but a bad offensive Team.
look at us 2011-20012:
with a very mobile Top 4 and avarage forwards we were in the TOP 10 in goals scored.

Last season we missed a PMD on the second pair, which shouldn't be a problem anymore with One of Ekholm or Jones.
i trink we will make the Playoffs and once we are in, anything can happen and in 2 seasons we could be contenders


Last edited by MoserHockey: 08-21-2013 at 05:54 AM.
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Old
08-21-2013, 06:06 AM
  #28
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I still think Nashville is giving up way too much. Josi and Wilson are two of our best young players and Gorges is not going to replace Josi and would not match better with Weber. Weber's play is enhanced by a pmd not a defensive defenseman, so Josi is the best fit.

I don't know if Beck will ever be a 50 point guy but more likely a 40 something guy.

the trade leaves us a lot less depth.

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08-21-2013, 10:56 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I still think Nashville is giving up way too much. Josi and Wilson are two of our best young players and Gorges is not going to replace Josi and would not match better with Weber. Weber's play is enhanced by a pmd not a defensive defenseman, so Josi is the best fit.

I don't know if Beck will ever be a 50 point guy but more likely a 40 something guy.

the trade leaves us a lot less depth.
Agreed.

Frankly, that Montreal trade gets more bloated and unappealing with each revision. Keeping it simple, with the main pieces being Josi for Pacioretty, with maybe a prospect or pick to balance, I don't think I make that deal. Pacioretty is a solid forward who would fit well here, but it's too hard to justify trading an asset like Josi at this point in his career.

I still don't think the Rangers bite on the Stepan for Wilson+ deal, even if they might make out with better value in the long-term.

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08-21-2013, 06:45 PM
  #30
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We have a few forward fprospects that IMHO are NHL talents.

Aberg, Forsberg, Beck, Watson and Sissons. I'd be shocked if any of our other (excluding 2013 draft) prospects ever have a permanent NHL home.

On defense. I only see Ekholm and Ellis as true NHL talents, again excluding the 2013 draft.
I agree here with the forwards. Not many people seem to remember we have Aberg and Sissons. Aberg was second in scoring in the Swede league he played in (slightly a guess on what I feel I saw) and is going to be in Milwaukee or Nashville probably in the coming year. Not this year but '14. I think out of the forwards we have not seen yet he has the most potential, and has been coined as a true sniper. Forsberg being a playmaker would probably play very well on a line with Aberg. He makes me excited for the future.

The forwards we have drafted and continue to prepare are going to have some shine to them in the next couple of years, we just need to be patient. I have been a very strong advocate for trades and signings to immediately improve our team but I think the best thing to do right now is to stand pat and see how things shake out. If we have to make a trade during the season, let's do it. I still see us unloading Smith and Spaling unless Smith breaks out, which is still possible. I just do not want a rental trade this year.

I'm excited about our prospects and I hope Forsberg really shines this year and Beck is able to prove he's got it.

and No to the trade proposals. just no.

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08-21-2013, 11:38 PM
  #31
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I really like Aberg as well. He will be great someday if he continues on his current path. I wonder if by signing to many free agents we may have limited players like Beck however.

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08-22-2013, 12:05 AM
  #32
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I really like Aberg as well. He will be great someday if he continues on his current path. I wonder if by signing to many free agents we may have limited players like Beck however.
Possibly, and possibly not. We signed energy/tough/fighter guys. I really don't see us keeping Nystrom and Hendricks through their contracts end though. Maybe one of them. But the younger guys as they progress will push one of them, if not both out of Nashville at some point before their contracts run out. Our prospect pool isn't half bad and they could make the jump and do well for us. Or we could take the Ekholm approach and just keep them in the minors for what feels like foreverrrrr

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08-22-2013, 08:02 AM
  #33
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To be frank, both of these trades suck. We should stick with what we have and focus on the future. We have a lot of young colts in the stable right now but they need time to grow.

We aren't trying to compete this year (regardless of what Poile and Trotz say). We've put together a serviceable roster to get us to a 25-20 finish so we can draft high again and get a top end forward with our draft pick. Hopefully our young guys will grow and overtake the vets next year. I call it like it is.

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08-22-2013, 08:44 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman Yoshi View Post
To be frank, both of these trades suck. We should stick with what we have and focus on the future. We have a lot of young colts in the stable right now but they need time to grow.

We aren't trying to compete this year (regardless of what Poile and Trotz say). We've put together a serviceable roster to get us to a 25-20 finish so we can draft high again and get a top end forward with our draft pick. Hopefully our young guys will grow and overtake the vets next year. I call it like it is.
We'll see.

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Old
08-22-2013, 09:24 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Roman Yoshi View Post
To be frank, both of these trades suck. We should stick with what we have and focus on the future. We have a lot of young colts in the stable right now but they need time to grow.

We aren't trying to compete this year (regardless of what Poile and Trotz say). We've put together a serviceable roster to get us to a 25-20 finish so we can draft high again and get a top end forward with our draft pick. Hopefully our young guys will grow and overtake the vets next year. I call it like it is.
again, completely disagree... ownership opened the wallet for Poile... they are not shooting for a top 10 draft pick... we arent Cup competitors, but I feel certain the expectation is that we make the playoffs again

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08-22-2013, 10:42 AM
  #36
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again, completely disagree... ownership opened the wallet for Poile... they are not shooting for a top 10 draft pick... we arent Cup competitors, but I feel certain the expectation is that we make the playoffs again
I'm not so sure. Even with the payroll where it's at, this is still very much a roster in transition that will need some better-than-expected play from its youth to make it into the playoffs. I think there's probably an expectation that we will seriously compete for a playoff spot, but I don't know that this roster, on paper, should be expected to get in. Though I agree that the plan isn't to suck for a high draft pick.

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08-22-2013, 10:51 AM
  #37
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Again, compare this roster to the 2012 roster and tell me why this one is worse.

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08-22-2013, 11:12 AM
  #38
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Again, compare this roster to the 2012 roster and tell me why this one is worse.
Let me add that I'd like to see the comparison to the team prior to the trade deadline.

Even before the trades this team was sitting in the 4th/5th slot depending on the day and had the number 1 powerplay.

That was prior to the Radulov, AK, Gill and Gaustad additions.

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08-22-2013, 11:15 AM
  #39
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Again, compare this roster to the 2012 roster and tell me why this one is worse.
Agree. We really only lost Tootoo, Halischuk, SK and Erat.


To me the only questions I have are: How will Wilson and Rinne play this year with after surgery?

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08-22-2013, 11:30 AM
  #40
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I agree.

And while we did lose to important pieces with SK and Erat, we've also added Stalberg, Cullen, Forsberg and Beck.

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08-22-2013, 12:35 PM
  #41
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As long as Wilson and Bourque can return to their pre-injury performance levels and Stalberg is capable of being the top 6 forward we signed him to be then we aren't in too bad of shape offensively.

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08-22-2013, 12:37 PM
  #42
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I am not necessarily saying that this team will be worse than last years team, I actually think it will be better 25-20 finish. But I don't think it is realistic to have us compete for a playoff spot at the moment. We have picked up solid stop gaps for a couple years while we wait for the cookies to bake. We have brought in rugged veteran leadership which will be excellent for rookies and young players.

We did not, however, bring in a winning roster.

Chicago
St. Louis
Minnesota
San Jose
Vancouver
Los Angeles

Are all pretty much locks for the playoffs. That leaves two open spaces to compete for. Not sure we are one of those teams.

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08-22-2013, 01:09 PM
  #43
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I am not necessarily saying that this team will be worse than last years team, I actually think it will be better 25-20 finish. But I don't think it is realistic to have us compete for a playoff spot at the moment. We have picked up solid stop gaps for a couple years while we wait for the cookies to bake. We have brought in rugged veteran leadership which will be excellent for rookies and young players.

We did not, however, bring in a winning roster.

Chicago
St. Louis
Minnesota
San Jose
Vancouver
Los Angeles

Are all pretty much locks for the playoffs. That leaves two open spaces to compete for. Not sure we are one of those teams.

I wouldn't consider Minnesota a lock

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08-22-2013, 01:40 PM
  #44
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I am not necessarily saying that this team will be worse than last years team, I actually think it will be better 25-20 finish. But I don't think it is realistic to have us compete for a playoff spot at the moment. We have picked up solid stop gaps for a couple years while we wait for the cookies to bake. We have brought in rugged veteran leadership which will be excellent for rookies and young players.

We did not, however, bring in a winning roster.

Chicago
St. Louis
Minnesota
San Jose
Vancouver
Los Angeles

Are all pretty much locks for the playoffs. That leaves two open spaces to compete for. Not sure we are one of those teams.
Minnesota is no lock, if the season had been a week longer they would have been out and Columbus would have been in... and I honestly believe the Canucks could melt down at any time....

that said, I think we are no worse than even with the remaining teams (Anaheim, Dallas, Phoenix) competing for the last two spots

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08-22-2013, 01:59 PM
  #45
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To be frank, both of these trades suck. We should stick with what we have and focus on the future. We have a lot of young colts in the stable right now but they need time to grow.

We aren't trying to compete this year (regardless of what Poile and Trotz say). We've put together a serviceable roster to get us to a 25-20 finish so we can draft high again and get a top end forward with our draft pick. Hopefully our young guys will grow and overtake the vets next year. I call it like it is.
we havent even played a single game yet with our new roster. You are calling your opinion, not "how it is". There is a difference, an 82 game difference.

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08-22-2013, 02:01 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Roman Yoshi View Post
I am not necessarily saying that this team will be worse than last years team, I actually think it will be better 25-20 finish. But I don't think it is realistic to have us compete for a playoff spot at the moment. We have picked up solid stop gaps for a couple years while we wait for the cookies to bake. We have brought in rugged veteran leadership which will be excellent for rookies and young players.

We did not, however, bring in a winning roster.

Chicago
St. Louis
Minnesota
San Jose
Vancouver
Los Angeles

Are all pretty much locks for the playoffs. That leaves two open spaces to compete for. Not sure we are one of those teams.

SJ and MN are locks for the playoffs?


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08-22-2013, 02:24 PM
  #47
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SJ and MN are locks for the playoffs?

Looking at the west yes they are pretty much locks barring major injuries. Minnesota will be better this year than last year IMHO. They have a lot of young pieces that got better. I feel like most Preds fans forget that it isn't just our prospects that are growing. Zucker, Granlund, Brodin, Etc will all be better this year. Yes they lost Seto and Clutterbuck, but added Cooke and potentially Niño if he can get his head out of his rectum. They also added Jon Blum who I predict will have a career year this year.

Edmonton could be a lot better team this year with their additions. Who knows about some of the other teams out west. I have EDMand PHX pegged ahead of us. The real wildcard, however, is Colorado who I actually believe will finish ahead of us this year with a Tampa Bay like performance under Yzerman and Guy Boucher. All the elements are there for that kind of year from them. There is a lot of excitement and energy in that organization. I believe it will work for a year the the wheels will come off.

The Preds will be contending for a playoff spot, but we are one weber or rinne injury away from being welcoming mats. There are far too many questions up front. This year is a gap year for us. We are rebuilding and have added key components to allow our youth to grow. Some young guys will get shots, others will be called up on injury basis. But this team is at best a fringe playoff team that will be mincemeat after the playoffs start.

More irratiting though is the term of our new pieces contracts and the caphits that come with them. I suspect that Poile is using them to fill spots this year and will then dump them when the NHL expands during the draft. Just two cents but that's what I would do.


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08-22-2013, 02:33 PM
  #48
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Looking at the west yes they are pretty much locks barring major injuries. Minnesota will be better this year than last year IMHO. They have a lot of young pieces that got better. I feel like most Preds fans forget that it isn't just our prospects that are growing. Zucker, Granlund, Brodin, Etc will all be better this year. Yes they lost Seto and Clutterbuck, but added Cooke and potentially Niño if he can get his head out of his rectum. They also added Jon Blum who I predict will have a career year this year.

Edmonton could be a lot better team this year with their additions. Who knows about some of the other teams out west. I have Edmonton as Phx pegged ahead of us. The real wildcard, however, is Colorado who I actually believe will finish ahead of us this year with a Tampa Bay like performance under Yzerman and Guy Boucher. All the elements are there for that kind of year from them. There is a lot of excitement and energy in that organization. I believe it will work for a year the the wheels will come off.
In a vacuum this all makes sense. But things dont work out all the time like can they look on paper. You are forgetting about our own prospects growth. Beck, Bourque, Wilson all have been growing as players and really coming into their own. Think about the steady additions we added this summer, Cullen (so underrated its disgusting), Stalberg, Nystrom, Hendricks, Seth Jones. Im just saying I wouldnt be writing us off to finish 20-25th this season, at all. We have just as good a chance as most in the west.

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08-22-2013, 03:23 PM
  #49
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Any claims that we can't compete before games start are insane. Both Bourque and Wilson were on pace for 20+ goal full seasons before injury. Stalberg has a 20+ goal season in his past and is pretty much guaranteed big minutes at ES and on the PP this season. I'm not expecting us to lead the league in goals, but, we have the pieces to put up decent numbers if they stay healthy.

Defensively we have several options to fill the second pairing gap alongside Klein. Which of Jones, Ekholm, and Bartley proves capable of filling that role remains to be seen.

Behind all of that we have a surgically repaired Rinne.

So ... last season's goal tending was addressed via medical attention for our star goalie. Scoring gets addressed by repairing two of our hottest scorers last season (before injury) plus the acquisition of Stalberg. The defensive gap is a risky move counting on a draftee or unproven young prospects. A return to Predators hockey and competitive every night play.

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08-22-2013, 03:57 PM
  #50
Iron Duke
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Originally Posted by Roman Yoshi View Post
Looking at the west yes they are pretty much locks barring major injuries. Minnesota will be better this year than last year IMHO. They have a lot of young pieces that got better. I feel like most Preds fans forget that it isn't just our prospects that are growing. Zucker, Granlund, Brodin, Etc will all be better this year. Yes they lost Seto and Clutterbuck, but added Cooke and potentially Niño if he can get his head out of his rectum. They also added Jon Blum who I predict will have a career year this year.

Edmonton could be a lot better team this year with their additions. Who knows about some of the other teams out west. I have EDMand PHX pegged ahead of us. The real wildcard, however, is Colorado who I actually believe will finish ahead of us this year with a Tampa Bay like performance under Yzerman and Guy Boucher. All the elements are there for that kind of year from them. There is a lot of excitement and energy in that organization. I believe it will work for a year the the wheels will come off.

The Preds will be contending for a playoff spot, but we are one weber or rinne injury away from being welcoming mats. There are far too many questions up front. This year is a gap year for us. We are rebuilding and have added key components to allow our youth to grow. Some young guys will get shots, others will be called up on injury basis. But this team is at best a fringe playoff team that will be mincemeat after the playoffs start.

More irratiting though is the term of our new pieces contracts and the caphits that come with them. I suspect that Poile is using them to fill spots this year and will then dump them when the NHL expands during the draft. Just two cents but that's what I would do.
Minnesota is more impressive on paper, though they have some pretty big question marks defensively outside of Suter and Brodin (assuming he stays up to last year's form). Most are penciling them in by default based on them making the playoffs last year and us, Dallas, Colorado and Winnipeg not doing so.

Colorado having that kind of season would be an incredible overachievement. Their defense is poor and unexperienced, and is likely to expose them severely over the course of a full season.

The only real locks are likely to be: Los Angeles, Chicago, and St. Louis, though I would include San Jose based off basically being the same roster that has consistently made it in the last few seasons, and possibly throw Anaheim in as well, assuming Selanne returns. That leaves anywhere from 1-3 possible spots for teams from the Central, and there is no reason the Preds can't be one of them. I think expecting the playoffs is a bit much, but also expecting a 20-25 finish is underselling a bit.

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