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Understanding the Rebuild

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Old
08-22-2013, 02:21 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
82 points in 78 games is pretty high end
it doesn't matter anyways.

As usual you are twisting conversations to meet your own agenda. No one is talking about the Flames being a cup contender this year, so what does it even matter?

The comparison is this year to last year.

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08-22-2013, 03:09 AM
  #102
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Are you the fanblogger??!!
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08-22-2013, 12:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
it doesn't matter anyways.

As usual you are twisting conversations to meet your own agenda. No one is talking about the Flames being a cup contender this year, so what does it even matter?

The comparison is this year to last year.
You wouldn't expect me to plan my discussion to meet your agenda, would you?

I'm just trying to understand the rebuild. Because that's what it is, a rebuild. I highly doubt Feaster and Company went into this rebuild plan with the purpose on 5 more years of 8-11 place finishes. I would hope the goal is a Stanley Cup, otherwise why half ass the only opportunity we will have to tear down our roster and rebuild it?

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08-22-2013, 01:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
You wouldn't expect me to plan my discussion to meet your agenda, would you?

I'm just trying to understand the rebuild. Because that's what it is, a rebuild. I highly doubt Feaster and Company went into this rebuild plan with the purpose on 5 more years of 8-11 place finishes. I would hope the goal is a Stanley Cup, otherwise why half ass the only opportunity we will have to tear down our roster and rebuild it?
Of course the goal is the Stanley Cup, it's just pointless to think that goal is in the near future. The rebuild has to be about continually improving while drafting well. It will not be about intentionally losing and collecting high picks.

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08-22-2013, 01:32 PM
  #105
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This reminds me a lot like the delay of gratification. Studies have shown that children who are able to delay their immediate gratification will be more successful in life than those who cannot. Purchasing vs. saving is a practical example.

So here we're at a cross-roads in which fans have to choose between their need for watching their team win, or delaying this need and allowing for a proper rebuild. By satisfying this gratification, the fans are willing to accept a roster that's not quite cup contending but generally competitive enough to win enough hockey games to satisfy.

Whereas one who's willing to delay this gratification is willing to forgo competition and accept the means to gather elite talents that will eventually help build a cup contending team and dynasty level competition.

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08-22-2013, 01:37 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
This reminds me a lot like the delay of gratification. Studies have shown that children who are able to delay their immediate gratification will be more successful in life than those who cannot. Purchasing vs. saving is a practical example.

So here we're at a cross-roads in which fans have to choose between their need for watching their team win, or delaying this need and allowing for a proper rebuild. By satisfying this gratification, the fans are willing to accept a roster that's not quite cup contending but generally competitive enough to win enough hockey games to satisfy.

Whereas one who's willing to delay this gratification is willing to forgo competition and accept the means to gather elite talents that will eventually help build a cup contending team and dynasty level competition.
So it's ok to just point-blank assume that the longer we lose, the better we'll be when we win? Okay, Tambellini.

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08-22-2013, 01:46 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
So it's ok to just point-blank assume that the longer we lose, the better we'll be when we win? Okay, Tambellini.
First, this Oilers comparison is weak because this method of rebuild has always been in used in sports, regardless of the sport.

But let's take the Oilers for example. They've gathered the following (likely) elite talents during the course of their rebuild: Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, Schultz. Such level of talents that are required to win a cup.

If the Flames were to continue playing these "secondary players" and justify the Canes 06 Cup as the model for a successful franchise, they would have a harder to time gathering the elite talents required to win it all. Its harder gethering elite level guys via trades and free agency when you're in the midst of a rebuild.

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08-22-2013, 01:53 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
First, this Oilers comparison is weak because this method of rebuild has always been in used in sports, regardless of the sport.

But let's take the Oilers for example. They've gathered the following (likely) elite talents during the course of their rebuild: Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, Schultz. Such level of talents that are required to win a cup.

If the Flames were to continue playing these "secondary players" and justify the Canes 06 Cup as the model for a successful franchise, they would have a harder to time gathering the elite talents required to win it all. Its harder gethering elite level guys via trades and free agency when you're in the midst of a rebuild.
That calibre of player is not necessarily required to win a cup. I'm surprised that the Boston Bruins of the past few years haven't raised a few eyebrows. Which top-5 draft pick or elite superstar talent has it been that's made them a cup contender? This is a team that has built itself up because all of their mid-first round and second round picks were well-selected and well-developed.

The Bruins have one superstar player in Zdeno Chara who was a project picked up in free agency. They have a whole host of very effective forwards, but none of them is going to put up 100 points. And they can win games in June.

If you're looking for a model of the kind of team you can put together without tanking, that's it.

I've forgotten what this discussion is about.

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08-22-2013, 03:17 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
That calibre of player is not necessarily required to win a cup. I'm surprised that the Boston Bruins of the past few years haven't raised a few eyebrows. Which top-5 draft pick or elite superstar talent has it been that's made them a cup contender? This is a team that has built itself up because all of their mid-first round and second round picks were well-selected and well-developed.

The Bruins have one superstar player in Zdeno Chara who was a project picked up in free agency. They have a whole host of very effective forwards, but none of them is going to put up 100 points. And they can win games in June.

If you're looking for a model of the kind of team you can put together without tanking, that's it.

I've forgotten what this discussion is about.
Boston has had some of the most elite goaltending in the league for a long time.

While perhaps none of their players are considered elite in terms of points, they have some elite two-way and well-rounded forwards. And they have a lot of those borderline guys between elite and secondary. Marchand, Lucic, Burgeron, Krejci, Seguin (now Eriksson), and Horton are all guys pushing the envelope. I bet some of them would put up elite-level numbers in a purely offensive role.

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08-22-2013, 03:23 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Boston has had some of the most elite goaltending in the league for a long time.

While perhaps none of their players are considered elite in terms of points, they have some elite two-way and well-rounded forwards. And they have a lot of those borderline guys between elite and secondary. Marchand, Lucic, Burgeron, Krejci, Seguin (now Eriksson), and Horton are all guys pushing the envelope. I bet some of them would put up elite-level numbers in a purely offensive role.
That's the point I was making. If you don't completely tank out, but you stockpile picks, are smart with the picks you have and make every one count, that is what you can expect to end up with. A bunch of guys right on the borderline between elite and complementary. And a contender.

For the record, an elite goalie can come from anywhere. Once again, the Bruins' goaltending tandem wasn't a product of tanking. Tim Thomas only came into his own later in his career. Cue Ramo.

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08-22-2013, 03:32 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
That's the point I was making. If you don't completely tank out, but you stockpile picks, are smart with the picks you have and make every one count, that is what you can expect to end up with. A bunch of guys right on the borderline between elite and complementary. And a contender.

For the record, an elite goalie can come from anywhere. Once again, the Bruins' goaltending tandem wasn't a product of tanking. Tim Thomas only came into his own later in his career. Cue Ramo.
That's true. People will always use Detroit as a team that has remained in contention regardless of late round picks. But look how teams have failed at rebuilds? I provided a list not too long ago regarding teams that had to rebuild a second time. Some of them were teams that couldn't afford a 5 year tank or they would lose their franchise.

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08-22-2013, 03:40 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
That's true. People will always use Detroit as a team that has remained in contention regardless of late round picks. But look how teams have failed at rebuilds? I provided a list not too long ago regarding teams that had to rebuild a second time. Some of them were teams that couldn't afford a 5 year tank or they would lose their franchise.
Right, but there are failures in every category of rebuild. I don't think that rebuilds work when their team finally decides to bottom out. I think rebuilds work when the team goes on 3 or 4 years of making good decisions for the long-term and avoiding mistakes. I think we can stand to have some success and reduce that draft position without throwing up our hands and declaring the rebuild doomed. As long as we don't change our player personnel strategy from long-term to short-term.

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08-22-2013, 03:47 PM
  #113
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Last year's draft was okay, but I think this past year and the 11' draft both look to be fantastic so far. I'm very confident in our revamped scouting team now and their ability to grab quality guys in the mid to late 1st round and later rounds as well. We probably will finish low next season, but if management throws in the towel for the next 2 seasons what kind of message does that send to our players and fans? You are not good enough, we will only win by drafting top 3? If it happens, it happens, but I don't believe that should be the goal of any pro sports team.

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08-22-2013, 04:12 PM
  #114
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Yes very much so sarcastic. Geez, people list 5 teams that went through 'similar' rebuilds getting top picks being cup contending teams, but fail to remember these same teams also got some of their core from other trades or FA signings.
None of those teams made retarded offersheets for players when they were in the middle of a rebuild. You think Chicago would be better off now if they had offersheeted some guy who would now be in his 30's over drafted Toews or Kane?

I get you like Stepan, but you asking for people to show you a list of rebuilt teams who are contenders when you cant even show ONE team that has made a successful offersheet proves exactly everyones point.

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08-22-2013, 04:59 PM
  #115
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In other words, 2 top 6 forwards, 2 top 4 DMan and a top goalie in the NHL.
Oh yeesh.

They drafted: A top 5 d man in the league (Doughty), a Vezina caliber goalie and likely the best goalie (i would put him next to Lundqvist) in the NHL, a 2 way big bodied #1C, a Heart and soul winger who plays on their top line, a Very good backup (better than any goalie we currently have), and some really good depth.

They also parlayed Other successful high end picks like Schenn and Simmonds into Mike Richards who was crucial to their cup win.

So basically, trading away high end picks and prospects works, Only when you are PUSHING for the cup. Had they traded their pick away instead of drafting Doughty or Schenn, they would have never won the cup.

Despite your failed logic, High end picks almost always lead to high end players and future success of the team.

You look at the Oilers and think that a rebuild is a fools errand, but you have to realize that the Oilers are a terribly run team and outside of their 1st overalls have failed to produce a single good player in the last 3 years. Calgary can change that by drafting and developing properly (like they have been the last 2 years) so that hopefully our string of top 3 picks doesnt last more than 2 seasons.

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08-22-2013, 06:48 PM
  #116
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Agreed,TylerSVT.

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08-22-2013, 08:22 PM
  #117
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Last year's draft was okay, but I think this past year and the 11' draft both look to be fantastic so far. I'm very confident in our revamped scouting team now and their ability to grab quality guys in the mid to late 1st round and later rounds as well. We probably will finish low next season, but if management throws in the towel for the next 2 seasons what kind of message does that send to our players and fans? You are not good enough, we will only win by drafting top 3? If it happens, it happens, but I don't believe that should be the goal of any pro sports team.
Keep in mind we've had some very contentious picks with Feaster and co. Last year we traded our 1st when some big name centres were on the board, and then still drafted Jankow over a lot big names too. This year they made a questionable Porier pick too. These guys also made lost out on some high end prospects with the Iginla, Bouwmeester and Tanguay trade, while showing some serious knee jerk panics with the goalie fiasco last year.

I hope our drafting program has gotten better, but only time will tell. It certainly "feels" better. There's still some reason to believe otherwise.

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08-22-2013, 08:28 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Keep in mind we've had some very contentious picks with Feaster and co. Last year we traded our 1st when some big name centres were on the board, and then still drafted Jankow over a lot big names too. This year they made a questionable Porier pick too. These guys also made lost out on some high end prospects with the Iginla, Bouwmeester and Tanguay trade, while showing some serious knee jerk panics with the goalie fiasco last year.
There is no guarantee that any high end prospects were ever on the table for any of those three veterans. In addition, the 'contentious' picks are all too early to evaluate.

Look at all of our prospects who have been given time to develop who were picked by Feaster and co. All gold. And Jankowski has been developing quite well. He skates circles around Pielon.

I think the reason it feels different is because the last couple of years, we've seen really big things out of players picked in all rounds. Just look at prospect camp this year. Some of the real standouts were Kanzig (another 'questionable' pick) and Tim Harrison, for whom we didn't have a picture available.

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08-22-2013, 09:16 PM
  #119
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There is no guarantee that any high end prospects were ever on the table for any of those three veterans. In addition, the 'contentious' picks are all too early to evaluate.

Look at all of our prospects who have been given time to develop who were picked by Feaster and co. All gold. And Jankowski has been developing quite well. He skates circles around Pielon.

I think the reason it feels different is because the last couple of years, we've seen really big things out of players picked in all rounds. Just look at prospect camp this year. Some of the real standouts were Kanzig (another 'questionable' pick) and Tim Harrison, for whom we didn't have a picture available.
Yeah I'm pretty excited about a lot of guys too and my nature is to assume the best in a lot of these prospects. Its not logical however. Time will tell. The problem is we missed a chance to see them with a shortened season last year in the camp and prospect tourney, so its hard to say how guys stack up against legit pros. This year will shine a lot of light.

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08-22-2013, 09:30 PM
  #120
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I was, and still am upset we passed on Taravenian and Girgesons and selected MJ. But we gained Seiloff who looks like he will be an impact dman in the NHL and be a total nightmare to play against. Then this season we passed on Shinkaruk which infuriated me at the time, but then some of the leaks about the players character and the fact so many teams passed on him make me tend to believe there's something there.

MG, we both dislike Feaster's trade history, but Weisbrod looks to be a very good drafter. He's had a large hand in selecting quite a few of the B's young guys. The fact that our recent picks have received such accolades and recognition on the WJ stage and their respective leagues are very encouraging signs. They scout these guys, not us, the fact they've already found several gems gains a lot of my confidence.

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08-23-2013, 12:08 PM
  #121
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I really wanted TT and was so happy when he fell to us. Then Feaster traded down and i facepalmed.

I didnt want Hunter, i think he is a baby and we wont make it anywhere due to his attitude.

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08-24-2013, 01:54 AM
  #122
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I was, and still am upset we passed on Taravenian and Girgesons and selected MJ. But we gained Seiloff who looks like he will be an impact dman in the NHL and be a total nightmare to play against. Then this season we passed on Shinkaruk which infuriated me at the time, but then some of the leaks about the players character and the fact so many teams passed on him make me tend to believe there's something there.

MG, we both dislike Feaster's trade history, but Weisbrod looks to be a very good drafter. He's had a large hand in selecting quite a few of the B's young guys. The fact that our recent picks have received such accolades and recognition on the WJ stage and their respective leagues are very encouraging signs. They scout these guys, not us, the fact they've already found several gems gains a lot of my confidence.
Maybe that's why it feels better. Most picks lately have grown and get better as they develop. With A by getting an overhaul in terms of policy, the development process should only get better

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08-24-2013, 02:06 AM
  #123
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I feel like the Flames organization's ability to develop draft picks is one of our best strengths, to the point at which I am open to the possibility of seeing amazing things out of Jankowski next year. His pace was not bad for a freshman, and based on what everyone who was at prospect camp said, it sounds like he's become one of our best prospects. In other words, I'm not crying over us missing out on TT.

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08-24-2013, 02:37 AM
  #124
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I feel like the Flames organization's ability to develop draft picks is one of our best strengths, to the point at which I am open to the possibility of seeing amazing things out of Jankowski next year. His pace was not bad for a freshman, and based on what everyone who was at prospect camp said, it sounds like he's become one of our best prospects. In other words, I'm not crying over us missing out on TT.
I would temper your expectations a bit. Jankowski is a LONG term project like Gaudreau. To your first point, what prospects have we really developed? Sure the flames prospect pool is better now than it has been the last 15 years, but its still not one of the best and almost every team has a plethora of Jankowski's and Wotherspoons who may or may not ever play in the NHL.

Let the team develop some players before you start thinking all our picks are going to turn out.

But i agree, its what will keep us from drafting 1st, 1st, 1st, 7th.

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08-24-2013, 02:42 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
I would temper your expectations a bit. Jankowski is a LONG term project like Gaudreau. To your first point, what prospects have we really developed? Sure the flames prospect pool is better now than it has been the last 15 years, but its still not one of the best and almost every team has a plethora of Jankowski's and Wotherspoons who may or may not ever play in the NHL.

Let the team develop some players before you start thinking all our picks are going to turn out.

But i agree, its what will keep us from drafting 1st, 1st, 1st, 7th.
Duly noted Guess I should keep myself from getting too excited.

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