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The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

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Old
08-22-2013, 09:55 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
well there is no denying Stepan was a star last year, almost a PPG is clearly a star.. We will see if he keeps it up this year
Stepan will continue to produce because he has good enough skill along with tremendous hockey IQ. Whether he turns out to be a legit #1 center in the truest sense is anybody's guess right now.

The Ranger's have done very well over an extended period of time with their later draft picks.

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08-22-2013, 10:04 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Stepan also isn't your typical playmaking center... at all.

First, he's average at faceoffs. Has been every year. He's got decent but unspectacular pivotal skating, good vision, but only just above average passing ability. He isn't very strong on the puck, either.

However, he has shown great hands around the net. Deflections, goal mouth plays, you remember at least a few of them. Some of the players he has clocked best with were of third line caliber, as he seems to do best on the cycle rather than the rush.

So when you guys say he'll be the absolute center for a guy like Nash, always play that position, I don't know if Stepan is the guy you want him to be/ think he is. He's not Oates or Savard or Crosby or even Richards. He reminds me a lot more of a hybrid Pavelski/Stastny and I think he'll consequently see substantial time on the wings in his career.
Very good analysis and parallel with Stepan.

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08-22-2013, 10:21 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Who are our good draft picks? Do you realize that if Kreider craps out this year, Miller doesn't develop into what we all hope(including myself) into a solid 2 way 2nd line center and if McIIrath doesn't make the team and then make a big difference, then 3 of our last 4 #1 draft picks will have ended up being busts.
One other thing; you don't like my posts, don't reply to them! I didn't start this latest ****fest! Go check for yourself.
All you said here was that if our three of our 1st rounders from the last 4 years end up being busts, we have 3 busts from four years. Wow, some revelation.

And you know, if McIlrath doesn't make the team this year and make "a big difference", he's a bust? If Miller doesn't become a second liner, he's a bust?

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08-22-2013, 10:27 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
There are only two proven star players on this roster, Lundqvist, and Nash.

Stepan still has a lot to prove despite one very good half season. Players have career years that rank them among consistent star players only to never come close to eclipsing those numbers again.

I'm not holding my breath.
Geez, you sound just like me! Lol! Not for nothing, you're 100% correct in stating that only Hank and Nash are proven stars and that Stepan still has a lot to prove.

You gotta be careful around here or you'll get lumped into the "negativity/debbie downer club with me!

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08-22-2013, 10:33 PM
  #230
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mcdonagh is clearly a star.

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08-22-2013, 10:36 PM
  #231
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Henrik following Henrik at the Barclays-

Quote:
Playing in his first ever round at Liberty National and with his fellow Swedish countryman and New York Rangers goaltender Henrik Lundqvist in attendance, Henrik Stenson finished the first round at 6-under, with 9 total birdies, and a share of second place.
I have faith in the Rangers/Golf fans to start a Henrik! chant if Stenson stays in the hunt.

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08-22-2013, 10:36 PM
  #232
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Proven star player = Shanahan, Richards, Naslund, Jagr

I'd rather enjoy watching Stepan, McD, Moore grow as I saw Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi before them.

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08-22-2013, 10:37 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
All you said here was that if our three of our 1st rounders from the last 4 years end up being busts, we have 3 busts from four years. Wow, some revelation.

And you know, if McIlrath doesn't make the team this year and make "a big difference", he's a bust? If Miller doesn't become a second liner, he's a bust?
Exactly dude; you catch on fast! McIIrath was drafted 3 freakin years ago and Miller 2 yrs ago.(#15 or 30 spots before Brandon Saad who was a calder finalist last year).

Don't you think it's about time McIIrath(who was picked #10 for whatever reason) made the Rangers and was given the opportunity to show what he is?

Sorry, I'm not as patient as you and some of the other fans are especially when I see other players getting drafted later by other teams around the league who are already playing in the NHL and in some cases making their mark.

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08-22-2013, 10:38 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
mcdonagh is clearly a star.
I love McDonagh but he isn't clearly a star, not when there are probably 10 or more defensemen in the league better than him!

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08-22-2013, 10:43 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Proven star player = Shanahan, Richards, Naslund, Jagr

I'd rather enjoy watching Stepan, McD, Moore grow as I saw Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi before them.
Exactly and if the salary cap was never instituted, the "Teflon GM" would still be throwing Dolan's money away on also rans and has beens looking for a retirement contract.

Btw, only Jagr out of the 4 players you mentioned above was still a star when we got him; the other 3 players(Richards possibly included) had one foot in the grave already!

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08-22-2013, 10:48 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Exactly dude; you catch on fast! McIIrath was drafted 3 freakin years ago and Miller 2 yrs ago.(#15 or 30 spots before Brandon Saad who was a calder finalist last year).

Don't you think it's about time McIIrath(who was picked #10 for whatever reason) made the Rangers and was given the opportunity to show what he is?

Sorry, I'm not as patient as you and some of the other fans are especially when I see other players getting drafted later by other teams around the league who are already playing in the NHL and in some cases making their mark.
At the moment, who.would he replace on our defense? It.also takes defensemen longer to develop then forwards.. Also, all 3 of those players are 21 or under, how can u call them a bust if they dont succeed next year?

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08-22-2013, 10:51 PM
  #237
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Brassard was a point a game in the playoffs. Star potential?

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08-22-2013, 10:51 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Not specifically,


I have not been following as long as you, mid 80s for me, but all the same I've kind of started to look at things a bit differently.

I truly believe stats can lie, if you read opinions enough it just plain does not make any sense. Yet if the stats also support what you see, you have some analytical support that your not just getting old and bitter.

I have some sense of them, I look at them, I use them, is not like they are kept for no reason. The "new" advanced stats are not new. Coaches have been keeping their own stats for a pretty long time, maybe since the inception of the insightful coach.

Without the context of seeing the player, and seeking and trying to understand other people's perception of that player as well, those stats can mislead just as much as just seeing the player(s) can.
Well stated and exactly right. If all coaches put their faith into stats, there would be a league full of "Joe Girardi's with looseleaf binders" walking around. The great one's coach based on their feel and gut instinct on what a player can or can't do and what situations he should be placed in to succeed.

A lot of the posters on this forum are "Joe Girardi wanna be's!"

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08-22-2013, 10:52 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Geez, you sound just like me! Lol! Not for nothing, you're 100% correct in stating that only Hank and Nash are proven stars and that Stepan still has a lot to prove.

You gotta be careful around here or you'll get lumped into the "negativity/debbie downer club with me!
Too late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
mcdonagh is clearly a star.
Clearly.

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08-22-2013, 10:53 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
At the moment, who.would he replace on our defense? It.also takes defensemen longer to develop then forwards.. Also, all 3 of those players are 21 or under, how can u call them a bust if they dont succeed next year?
Here we go again; I never said that they were busts! Please go back and re-read my original post.

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08-22-2013, 10:54 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Exactly dude; you catch on fast! McIIrath was drafted 3 freakin years ago and Miller 2 yrs ago.(#15 or 30 spots before Brandon Saad who was a calder finalist last year).
Henrik Lundqvist was picked 204 spots after Rick DiPietro. **** happens

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08-22-2013, 10:57 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Brassard was a point a game in the playoffs. Star potential?
The guy was drafted #6 in 2006, underachieved greatly and basically played himself out of Columbus. Star potential? He certainly has some noteworthy skills but I doubt very much that he will ever become a star!

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08-22-2013, 10:57 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Stepan also isn't your typical playmaking center... at all.

First, he's average at faceoffs. Has been every year. He's got decent but unspectacular pivotal skating, good vision, but only just above average passing ability. He isn't very strong on the puck, either.

However, he has shown great hands around the net. Deflections, goal mouth plays, you remember at least a few of them. Some of the players he has clocked best with were of third line caliber, as he seems to do best on the cycle rather than the rush.

So when you guys say he'll be the absolute center for a guy like Nash, always play that position, I don't know if Stepan is the guy you want him to be/ think he is. He's not Oates or Savard or Crosby or even Richards. He reminds me a lot more of a hybrid Pavelski/Stastny and I think he'll consequently see substantial time on the wings in his career.
I disagree with a couple of your assertions, here.

First off, I think Stepan's passing ability is well above "average". His passes are hard, crisp, and on target. He's not going to be putting up any 80+ assist seasns like Thornton/Sedin, but I don't think 45-55 assists per year is out of the question at all, especially if he's playing with a talented goal scorer like Nash.

Secondly, I think you underrate how good his vision is. That, along with his hockey IQ, is his best attribute. He sees the ice better than any other player on the team.

Third, I think he's a career center. His defensive game is far, far too good to be wasted on the wing. A lot of his offense comes from being so sound defensively, he's able to break up plays and turn it the other way, especially shorthanded. He had a Selke caliber season last year, and was much better than the heralded Callahan has ever been defensively. I agree with you that he's not a Savard or a Richards, but for different reasons. I think he can have 75-85 point seasons, for sure, but the style of play is different. He isn't flashy, but he's about as impeccable a positional player as you'll find, and I think that it allows him to adapt and mesh with whoever is placed on his line. I do think that he is an excellent fit for Nash, as well, because what Stepan lacks (size, strength, net drive ability), Nash has, and what Nash lacks (vision, positional awareness, defensive ability), Stepan has. They offset each other wonderfully.

Last year, Stepan took huge steps forward with his skating, his shot, and his strength. I was watching some footage from the 11-12 season and it's remarkable how much stronger Stepan is on the puck while skating through the neutral zone than he was during the 11-12 season, and his shot/release capabilities are night and day. Young players improve. The argument against Stepan seems to be that he's going to decline simply because the possibility is there.

I think Stepan is a very unique player, and I see no reason why he can't continue to improve, let alone maintain his play from last year.

Long story short, Stepan was an excellent 1C last season, and certainly has the ability to keep his play moving forward and solidfy himself as arguably the team's most important building block up front. It's going to be a wait and see kind of thing with him, and I'm perfectly fine with seeing what he's capable of. It's called patience and development, and it's what built good teams like Boston.

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08-22-2013, 10:57 PM
  #244
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Why can't McIlrath just be Dylan McIlrath, and not be compared to other players every time he's mentioned?

Just because a player like Saad put up respectable numbers in his first year playing with all-star quality players, that has no reflection on McIlrath at all.

There's nothing wrong with letting a player develop in juniors/AHL/etc if that's what they need, rather then stunting their growth at a level they shouldn't be at just to give them experience at that level (see: Nino Neiderreiter).

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08-22-2013, 11:02 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
At the moment, who.would he replace on our defense? It.also takes defensemen longer to develop then forwards.. Also, all 3 of those players are 21 or under, how can u call them a bust if they dont succeed next year?
I know and understand that but we can't wait until 2016 to find out what McIIrath is. Once again, I never once called any of the 3 players in question(Kreider, McIIrath, Miller) a bust! Please re-read my original post!

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08-22-2013, 11:12 PM
  #246
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Henrik Lundqvist was picked 204 spots after Rick DiPietro. **** happens
Right, that happens sometimes and you gotta get lucky once in a while.

Many of the top goalies in the league were drafted fairly late; Pekka Rinne was drafted #258 overall in the 2004 draft and he's a top 3-5 goalie in the league.

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08-22-2013, 11:18 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Why can't McIlrath just be Dylan McIlrath, and not be compared to other players every time he's mentioned?

Just because a player like Saad put up respectable numbers in his first year playing with all-star quality players, that has no reflection on McIlrath at all.

There's nothing wrong with letting a player develop in juniors/AHL/etc if that's what they need, rather then stunting their growth at a level they shouldn't be at just to give them experience at that level (see: Nino Neiderreiter).
I agree with you, especially as it relates to McIIrath. Btw, Saad was drafted the same year as Miller was and in so far as Neiderreiter is concerned, he always produced well in the AHL; it was obvious he needed a fresh start!

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08-22-2013, 11:43 PM
  #248
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The guy was drafted #6 in 2006, underachieved greatly and basically played himself out of Columbus. Star potential? He certainly has some noteworthy skills but I doubt very much that he will ever become a star!
I guess definitions can vary, what have you done for me lately? Lundqvist, Brassard, Hagelin Zucc, Callahan are more stars than Nash was, no?

What has Nash done in his NHL career other than being supremely talented that makes him such a star?

It's just subjective.

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08-23-2013, 12:17 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
I guess definitions can vary, what have you done for me lately? Lundqvist, Brassard, Hagelin Zucc, Callahan are more stars than Nash was, no?

What has Nash done in his NHL career other than being supremely talented that makes him such a star?

It's just subjective.
Nash has a Maurice Rocket Richard trophy and is consistently near the top of the league in scoring wingers. So it's tough to say Hagelin, Brassard, Zuccarello, or Callahan are greater stars than he is.

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08-23-2013, 02:46 AM
  #250
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Who are our good draft picks? Do you realize that if Kreider craps out this year, Miller doesn't develop into what we all hope(including myself) into a solid 2 way 2nd line center and if McIIrath doesn't make the team and then make a big difference, then 3 of our last 4 #1 draft picks will have ended up being busts.
One other thing; you don't like my posts, don't reply to them! I didn't start this latest ****fest! Go check for yourself.
So bascially you're saying that IF 3 out of 4 players bust, 3 out of 4 are busts? Yeah, there's some truth to that. Also for the "don't reply to them" part ... you realize this is a discussion forum, right?

Also, for the Saad argument: You're basing that on a player who - when comparing development to the position in which he was picked - is far from the norm. You can always pick a player drafted after the first round who'll end up being better than most of the guys who were drafted higher. Heck, this years point leader went undrafted. Younger examples are Stepan, Marchand or this years Norris winner. None drafted in the 1st round. It happens every year, multiple times. For all we know, MacKenzie Skapski could end up the best goalie out of this years draft.


Last edited by Kokoschka: 08-23-2013 at 03:06 AM.
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