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08-23-2013, 07:09 AM
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JackieChan
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Plasma for watching hockey?

Hey guys,
I'm about to pick up a 50"St60 Panasonic plasma before the season starts, but am a bit concerned about scoreboards and news tickers potentially creating image retention on the tv.

Has anybody experienced significant IR on a similar panel after watching hockey?

I'd also consider an LED-LCD if I could find one that performs close to the st60 for a similar price (1300$), but in this price range, everybody's raving about the Panny, and no led's seem to stand out from the pack. Also, led-lcds are known to have a hard time with fast moving content compared to plasmas in general.

Any thoughts? What are you guys watching hockey on?

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08-23-2013, 07:25 AM
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Good question, I just got a 55 inch VT60 and was thinking about this last night.

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08-23-2013, 07:31 AM
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coolasprICE
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I got the 60 inch version. no issues. however ice seems a bit grey regardless of settings. but ill stick with plasma. led looks like crap now that I'm used to it.

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08-23-2013, 07:34 AM
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Keep Your Head Up
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Plasma TVs excel at one thing : and that is watching sports/fast action stuff.

They have a crazy high frame refresh rate(600hz and the like) so no judder, no lag, no blurriness of players during fast action moments, wich in hockey is ALL of the time. And this is why they do fine in that role.

Of course, a quality LED tv is amazeballs but it costs a lot more(and I stress QUALITY here, because a cheap one will be very disappointing, even if LED is a good technology).

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08-23-2013, 07:36 AM
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Kevin Danko
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I have had my 40 inch 120hz LCD Sony Bravia KDL since 2008, and haven't had any issues, everything looks great on it.

I bought my parents a 60 inch Samsung LED with 240hz refresh rate last year, and while hockey and action sports look great, regular tv and movies look like soap opera's.

As far as your concerns about burn in...newer model plasma's don't suffer AS MUCH or AT ALL in some cases the amount of burn in that they did when they first started getting big.

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08-23-2013, 07:38 AM
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Hank Scorpio
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I bought a Sharp Aquos about a year ago, which is an LED, and have absolutely no problems with it. Since I'm not the most technical guy in the world, I'll link what I have below but I'd certainly recommend it.

http://www1.thebrick.com/brickb2c/js...ump&navCount=1

Edit: As Kevindank mentioned, I've had the same issue with some movies looking like soaps. Avengers especially comes to mind. Sports aren't an issue though.

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08-23-2013, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I have had my 40 inch 120hz LCD Sony Bravia KDL since 2008, and haven't had any issues, everything looks great on it.

I bought my parents a 60 inch Samsung LED with 240hz refresh rate last year, and while hockey and action sports look great, regular tv and movies look like soap opera's.

As far as your concerns about burn in...newer model plasma's don't suffer AS MUCH or AT ALL in some cases the amount of burn in that they did when they first started getting big.
I think if you disable the "Smoothing" option when watching movies, it will get rid of the soap opera effect. What this option do is adding images between the existing images(or frames, as in 24 frames per second) to give a so-called "smooth" moving picture, but to me it looks like crap. Anyway, it's definitly the culprit of the s.o. effect.

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08-23-2013, 08:52 AM
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I've have been a fan of HDTV and I did spend a lot of times reading comments/articles about it.
Here are some facts:

- Few years ago, Plasma and LCD differentiate a lot. Each had its own strengths and weaknesses. But nowadays, each techno improves its weakness, so they resemble more and more. The burn-in is no longer an issue with the newest Plasma, while the lagging is no longer a problem with LCD or LED. Don't worry about the burn-in.

- I have the Plasma Pioneer bought in 2007, and it's true that the white (the ice surface) looks bit off. Back then, the white on LCD looked better. However, I'm not sure if Plasma has corrected this in recent year.

- The black on Plasma is much better than on the LCD. And most of the times, the black is generally more important than the white......but since we are a hockey fan, this may not be so true.

- If you want bright image, go with LCD/LED. If you want darker image (like cinema), then go with Plasma.

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08-23-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JackieChan View Post
Hey guys,
I'm about to pick up a 50"St60 Panasonic plasma before the season starts, but am a bit concerned about scoreboards and news tickers potentially creating image retention on the tv.

Has anybody experienced significant IR on a similar panel after watching hockey?

I'd also consider an LED-LCD if I could find one that performs close to the st60 for a similar price (1300$), but in this price range, everybody's raving about the Panny, and no led's seem to stand out from the pack. Also, led-lcds are known to have a hard time with fast moving content compared to plasmas in general.

Any thoughts? What are you guys watching hockey on?
Burn in is almost an urban myth with Plasma. Before I purchased my plasma I did a lot of reading on it, it's possible with the very early plasmas but you would really have to work at it to make it happen (keep CNN ticker on for like 6 months without turning your TV off) . The TV's of the last decade have better phosphors and anti-retention technology built in that moves pixels around undetected to the naked eye.

Plasma is awesome, don't worry.

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08-23-2013, 09:06 AM
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It's all relative.

Plasma's have hi heat retention and tend to have shorter life span. They also may "burn" causing ghosting with images that are not refreshed. For example game menu's or score menu's. Plasma's are also notrious for being horrible in natural lighting. If you have a lot of windows, do yourself a favor and avoid it.

Your TV can be spec'd out, but the truth you will only ever be as good as your input. All HDTV in north america is broadcast at the same rate (1080p | 60 Hz refresh rate). So watching sports will only be that good until 4K broadcasting happens a little down the pike.

Industry is moving away from this with manufacturers cutting down on the amount of plasma TV's currently being made. With 4K down the pike and oLED and LED TV's seeing a major price drop next quarter, I would recommend that as the smartest option.

The look great and consume a lot less power.


Last edited by Trumanperro: 08-23-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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08-23-2013, 09:09 AM
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sammy d
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Plasmas will have a duller ice surface.

A cheaper plasma will look better than a cheaper LED.

Soap opera effect can be eliminated by the correct settings, smooth, motionflow whatever the manufacturer calls it.

Motion should not be a problem on higher end LED's.

However, plasmas do suffer from image retention despite what the manufacturers say. It can vary from model to model.

Burn in and image retention are 2 different things.

Burn in is permanent, this is virtually eliminated now.

Image retention is non-permanent and can be eliminated by various techniques plasma's have such as a pixel washer or by just watching different content for a few hours. This is still prevalent on a lot of plasma's.

Pro's - Plasma will have a more natural picture, better contrast, usually better for fast movement.

Cons- LED will have a brighter , crisper picture, possible image retention om plasma.

I was considering a plasma but thought, do I really want to babysit my set to prevent possible retention or just watch and enjoy?

For more info go to AVS forum.

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08-23-2013, 09:13 AM
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Madam Kadri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanperro View Post
It's all relative.

Plasma's have hi heat retention and tend to have shorter life span. They also may "burn" causing ghosting with images that are not refreshed. For example game menu's or score menu's. Plasma's are also notrious for being horrible in natural lighting. If you have a lot of windows, do yourself a favor and avoid it.

Your TV can be spec'd out, but the truth you will only ever be as good as your input. All HDTV in north america is broadcast at the same rate (1080p | 60 Hz refresh rate). So watching sports will only be that good until 4K broadcasting happens a little down the pike.

Industry is moving away from this with manufacturers cutting down on the amount of plasma TV's currently being made. With 4K down the pike and oLED and LED TV's seeing a major price drop next quarter, I would recommend that as the smartest option.

The look great and consume a lot less power.
HDTV is actually broadcast at 1080i maximum.

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08-23-2013, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
HDTV is actually broadcast at 1080i maximum.
This! I meant 1080 interlaced. That was a typo. Good catch.

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08-23-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
HDTV is actually broadcast at 1080i maximum.
Right. But unfortunately most of them are still broadcast in 720p
We still don't have 1080p broadcast, and 4K TV is already coming.

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08-23-2013, 09:38 AM
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I have a 60" LG plasma tv we bought at costco a few years back. Fan-freakin-tastic. No issues at all Ice is white, colors are great... rdshd is great....etc etc...

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08-23-2013, 09:49 AM
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Lionel Mandrake
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Permanent image retention or burn-ins have become almost nonexistant now that the plasma technology has matured, and Panasonic are one of the best, if not THE best plasma company (too bad they're now shutting down R&D for the plasma division). I work as a tech in TV and Panasonic is usually the defacto brand we use when image is important in our setups.

What you might expect to see on rare occasions after watching a game or playing video games for a prolonged period is some slight temporary IR that will progressively disappear. Permanent burn-ins can and do occur in very extreme conditions, we have plasmas at work that are damaged that way, but we're talking about letting a logo or looped animation fed non stop for weeks if not months on out before damage occurs.

Unless we're talking very high end, I think nothing beats plasma for movies (amazing black level rendition) or sports (fast action is always fluid). Only time I'd consider going with LCD, LED or any other technology is if I was going to spend 3K+ on a new TV/projection system or if my living room had way too much uncontrolable ambiant light.

OLED will (and already does) surpass all these technologies, but affordable consumer grade units are still years away.

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08-23-2013, 10:06 AM
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RealityBytes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep Your Head Up View Post
Plasma TVs excel at one thing : and that is watching sports/fast action stuff.

They have a crazy high frame refresh rate(600hz and the like) so no judder, no lag, no blurriness of players during fast action moments, wich in hockey is ALL of the time. And this is why they do fine in that role.

Of course, a quality LED tv is amazeballs but it costs a lot more(and I stress QUALITY here, because a cheap one will be very disappointing, even if LED is a good technology).
I have a Sony XBR 32 inch wall mounted in my "man cave" and this is the most amazing TV ever. It is an LED backlit LCD with 1080P and has 120HZ refresh rate with what Sony calls Motionflow and uses the BE2 engine. It was about the only 32 inch TV that used that refresh rate which is double over most 32 inches while still having the 1080 pixel set. It also is the best at handling pixel filling for older movies and as such so there is no "old movie blotchy blur". Yes it was expensive, the original price was $1,399 at the Sony store in 2009 which is very pricey for a 32 inch TV, but I did get it on sale for $1,099.

When people see it for sports they are blown away amazed, the picture is outstanding for sports. It's like watching sports on blue ray. I absolutely love my TV.

The problem is you can't get it in that size anymore. When I went to get another, the guy at the Sony store says they don't make them like that for 32 inch anymore since there is little market for them and they don't have anything new equivalent to replace them.

However, now the best (before OLED) is still to go and get an LED backlit or edgelit LCD TV, the high end ones compete with and exceed any plasma. Assuming money is not an object, get the best TV out there since you will be disappointed if you don't. Considering how long they last and how often you watch sports, adding the difference of money from going to the Bell Center a few times and you will be glad you did.


Last edited by RealityBytes: 08-23-2013 at 11:12 AM.
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08-23-2013, 10:26 AM
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ChemiseBleuHonnete
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Burn in is almost an urban myth with Plasma. Before I purchased my plasma I did a lot of reading on it, it's possible with the very early plasmas but you would really have to work at it to make it happen (keep CNN ticker on for like 6 months without turning your TV off) . The TV's of the last decade have better phosphors and anti-retention technology built in that moves pixels around undetected to the naked eye.

Plasma is awesome, don't worry.
This!

I have a great LG 47" LED TV. Awesome quality, but not even close to our old plasma TV that my mom still has.

It's an old Panasonic plasma 50" 720p (yes 720p), it's like 6-7 years old. I don't remember the model # , but we took the top-line product but in 720p version. Everyone who sees this TV still think even today that it has the best image they're ever seen in person. The colors, the saturation, the blacks and respond rate is off the charts. I calibrated the TV with a home-theatre DVD calibration disc. Truth is, it's awesome, and we watched lots of hockey, movies and TV and there's never been the slightest sign of burn in.

If I had the choice, I would definately take a plasma TV, hands down.

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08-23-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep Your Head Up View Post
Plasma TVs excel at one thing : and that is watching sports/fast action stuff.

They have a crazy high frame refresh rate(600hz and the like) so no judder, no lag, no blurriness of players during fast action moments, wich in hockey is ALL of the time. And this is why they do fine in that role.

Of course, a quality LED tv is amazeballs but it costs a lot more(and I stress QUALITY here, because a cheap one will be very disappointing, even if LED is a good technology).
Actually plasma's don't have any refresh rate at all, the company's who advertise 600hz are being dishonest and just trying to look better then the LED numbers. The truth is plasma uses a vastly different technology which does not have lights flickering on and off and as such refresh rate is a null factor.

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08-23-2013, 11:20 PM
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Actually plasma's don't have any refresh rate at all, the company's who advertise 600hz are being dishonest and just trying to look better then the LED numbers. The truth is plasma uses a vastly different technology which does not have lights flickering on and off and as such refresh rate is a null factor.


Oh well, good to know. I just learned something today lol.

But still it drives my point home anyway : movement, even fast, is really tight (stays defined, appears just right) on a plasma, whereas it will often be either blurry, choppy or "soap opera-esque" on a led.

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08-24-2013, 09:53 AM
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Main reason I wanted to stay away from plasma is they seem to put off way more heat. That still true? Copped a feel on a few leds vs. lcd's at costco the other day and the difference is pretty huge.

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08-24-2013, 10:05 AM
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Still can't beat the picture quality of a good plasma TV. I prefer plasma over LED almost every time, real high end LED's are comparable, but I prefer plasmas.

Dark room or light room?


Last edited by habsfanatics: 08-24-2013 at 10:13 AM.
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08-24-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sammy d View Post
Plasmas will have a duller ice surface.

A cheaper plasma will look better than a cheaper LED.

Soap opera effect can be eliminated by the correct settings, smooth, motionflow whatever the manufacturer calls it.

Motion should not be a problem on higher end LED's.

However, plasmas do suffer from image retention despite what the manufacturers say. It can vary from model to model.

Burn in and image retention are 2 different things.

Burn in is permanent, this is virtually eliminated now.

Image retention is non-permanent and can be eliminated by various techniques plasma's have such as a pixel washer or by just watching different content for a few hours. This is still prevalent on a lot of plasma's.

Pro's - Plasma will have a more natural picture, better contrast, usually better for fast movement.

Cons- LED will have a brighter , crisper picture, possible image retention om plasma.

I was considering a plasma but thought, do I really want to babysit my set to prevent possible retention or just watch and enjoy?

For more info go to AVS forum.
Image retention is 100% a non issue with plasmas, I've got two, np at all with my Samsung, and none with my panasonic, if you go cheap, you could have problems, but if you buy a good set, there is np at all. My xbox/sports tickers are usually on all day whether I'm home or not. Never any problem at all.

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08-24-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Main reason I wanted to stay away from plasma is they seem to put off way more heat. That still true? Copped a feel on a few leds vs. lcd's at costco the other day and the difference is pretty huge.
with fireplaces being illegal now a plasma is a good alternative.

Just put on the fireplace channel and it's like the real thing.

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08-24-2013, 11:31 AM
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JackieChan
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Thanks for your input guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I got the 60 inch version. no issues. however ice seems a bit grey regardless of settings. but ill stick with plasma. led looks like crap now that I'm used to it.
From what I read it seems these sets need to be babied. Have you done any breaking-in using slides, etc. before normal use? Do you run slides/pixel flippers/watch same duration of content without static images after watching content with static images (such as a hockey game, or non-full screen movies?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Burn in is almost an urban myth with Plasma. Before I purchased my plasma I did a lot of reading on it, it's possible with the very early plasmas but you would really have to work at it to make it happen (keep CNN ticker on for like 6 months without turning your TV off) . The TV's of the last decade have better phosphors and anti-retention technology built in that moves pixels around undetected to the naked eye.

Plasma is awesome, don't worry.
From the comments I read, I'd say roughly half the plasma users agree with you, but the rest say prolonged/tough to reverse IR is an issue... To me it looks like manufacturers have quality control problems and that some of the sets are fine for "normal use" like you described, but some others have problems from the start or appear over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammy d View Post
Plasmas will have a duller ice surface.

A cheaper plasma will look better than a cheaper LED.

Soap opera effect can be eliminated by the correct settings, smooth, motionflow whatever the manufacturer calls it.

Motion should not be a problem on higher end LED's.

However, plasmas do suffer from image retention despite what the manufacturers say. It can vary from model to model.

Burn in and image retention are 2 different things.

Burn in is permanent, this is virtually eliminated now.

Image retention is non-permanent and can be eliminated by various techniques plasma's have such as a pixel washer or by just watching different content for a few hours. This is still prevalent on a lot of plasma's.

Pro's - Plasma will have a more natural picture, better contrast, usually better for fast movement.

Cons- LED will have a brighter , crisper picture, possible image retention om plasma.

I was considering a plasma but thought, do I really want to babysit my set to prevent possible retention or just watch and enjoy?

For more info go to AVS forum.
Thanks for the info, and I went through massive threads over at AVS, and your recap is spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Still can't beat the picture quality of a good plasma TV. I prefer plasma over LED almost every time, real high end LED's are comparable, but I prefer plasmas.

Dark room or light room?
I won't be watching TV during the day, and the room is pretty dim, and no windows allow light directly into the tv.

I would consider a LED even tough it is not up to the level of the ST60 plasma if I could find a model around 1300$, 50" or a little under, if there was anything close to a consensus towards a specific model. I always want to buy the best quality that my budget allows. It seems clear on the plasma side, but I'd like to narrow it down to a few models on the LCD side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Image retention is 100% a non issue with plasmas, I've got two, np at all with my Samsung, and none with my panasonic, if you go cheap, you could have problems, but if you buy a good set, there is np at all. My xbox/sports tickers are usually on all day whether I'm home or not. Never any problem at all.
The ST60 is on the cheap side for plasmas, but higher models (VT, ZT, etc.) are out of my budget. What panasonic do you have?

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