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The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

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08-23-2013, 10:38 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
McDonagh had all of the leverage. Sather also said the plan is to negotiate an extension with Stepan at the end of the first season. I am sure Gorton has communicated that to Stepan and his agents. The cap will be much higher for 15-16 than $64.3M.
Im taking that plan with a grain of salt. Considering all the free agents the team has after this season, I somehow cant see the team revisiting Stepan's contract until all the other stuff is squared away.

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08-23-2013, 10:40 AM
  #277
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We also have more talent now compared to Renney.. so yes there is a reason to believe Torts was holding the offense back at least some, guess we will find out
He also took the team further than Renney ever did.

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08-23-2013, 10:41 AM
  #278
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He also took the team further than Renney ever did.
Not disagreeing with that, overall he did a good job here, but he refused to try something else which is ultimately why he's gone

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08-23-2013, 10:44 AM
  #279
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Not disagreeing with that, overall he did a good job here, but he refused to try something else which is ultimately why he's gone
We can go back and forth on this, and plenty of us have throughout the offseason.

But, "he refused to try something else" is a simplistic answer not really rooted in reality. Massive roster turnover, shortened season, and a team that actually played much better after Sather decided to actually replenish some depth at the deadline. You act as if "trying something else" is just a switch that can be turned at a moment's notice.

Boston is just a better/deeper team. Why is that so hard to admit?

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08-23-2013, 10:49 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
We can go back and forth on this, and plenty of us have throughout the offseason.

But, "he refused to try something else" is a simplistic answer not really rooted in reality. Massive roster turnover, shortened season, and a team that actually played much better after Sather decided to actually replenish some depth at the deadline. You act as if "trying something else" is just a switch that can be turned at a moment's notice.

Boston is just a better/deeper team. Why is that so hard to admit?
wait.. I already said the better team won, and I agree with us being better after we got more depth, and we have even more now with Pouilot and Moore

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08-23-2013, 10:51 AM
  #281
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wait.. I already said the better team won, and I agree with us being better after we got more depth, and we have even more now with Pouilot and Moore
Then whats your point? You want a coach that makes a roster better than it actually is? Beat teams that they shouldnt? Good luck with that.

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08-23-2013, 01:03 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
We can go back and forth on this, and plenty of us have throughout the offseason.

But, "he refused to try something else" is a simplistic answer not really rooted in reality. Massive roster turnover, shortened season, and a team that actually played much better after Sather decided to actually replenish some depth at the deadline. You act as if "trying something else" is just a switch that can be turned at a moment's notice.

Boston is just a better/deeper team. Why is that so hard to admit?

I don't think "trying something else" has to be restricted to X's and O's. Torts was largely canned because he was unwilling (or unable) to change his behavior while he coached here (and obviously, because the team's success did not meet/exceed the success from 2011-12 and the semi-finals run). If the Rangers made the Conference finals again, or reached the cup finals, i think its unlikely the Rangers would have fired him. A disappointing season, which was not all Tort's fault due to a "upgraded" but essentially retooled and gutted roster, forced a reevaluation of a longstanding issue regarding Torts overall strategy including X's and Os AND his demeanor on the bench, in the dressing room, and in front of the media.

While we can't know for sure (at least for now) what happened, Torts intentionally or not, made himself into the abrasive, larger-than-life face of this franchise.

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08-23-2013, 01:40 PM
  #283
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Then whats your point? You want a coach that makes a roster better than it actually is? Beat teams that they shouldnt? Good luck with that.
You honestly think last year's team played better than it actually was?

You're saying other people's opinions aren't rooted in reality... Ok...

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08-23-2013, 01:55 PM
  #284
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You honestly think last year's team played better than it actually was?

You're saying other people's opinions aren't rooted in reality... Ok...
No.

You might want to read that again. Slowly, this time. I think last year's team played to just about where they should've finished. If anything, I think the '11-12 team overachieved.

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08-23-2013, 01:59 PM
  #285
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You honestly think last year's team played better than it actually was?
In some ways, yes. If someone told you at the start of the season that:

- Marian Gaborik would be traded at the deadline (partly for depth and partly because he wasn't producing)

- Marc Staal would miss 27 games and only play one game in the playoffs

- Brad Richards play would relegate him to the 4th line (and be benched for two games in the playoffs)

- Chris Kreider would score 3 points in the regular season

- They would get a total of 10 goals and 18 points for Boyle, Pyatt, Powe and Asham

- The likes of Christian Thomas, Benn Ferriero, Brandon Mashinter, Kris Newbury, JT Miller, Brandon Segal, Matt Gilroy, Stu Bickel, Roman Hamrlik, Josh Halpern and Michael Haley would combine for over 60 games played and contribute a total of 7 points

- That Derek Stepan would lead the team in scoring

- That Rick Nash would have as many goals as he did assists

- That Anton Stralman would have more goals than Michael Del Zotto

Would you think that this team would make it to the second round of the playoffs?

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08-23-2013, 02:12 PM
  #286
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Then whats your point? You want a coach that makes a roster better than it actually is? Beat teams that they shouldnt? Good luck with that.
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
No.

You might want to read that again. Slowly, this time. I think last year's team played to just about where they should've finished. If anything, I think the '11-12 team overachieved.
Either way, you're implying they played up to their potential. Which they did not, I know, it's a lot easier to say the team sucks than admit that they underachieved. Which is on both the players and the coach, the '11-'12 team probably overachieved to an extent but for the most part they played up to their potential.

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In some ways, yes. If someone told you at the start of the season that:

- Marian Gaborik would be traded at the deadline (partly for depth and partly because he wasn't producing)

- Marc Staal would miss 27 games and only play one game in the playoffs

- Brad Richards play would relegate him to the 4th line (and be benched for two games in the playoffs)

- Chris Kreider would score 3 points in the regular season

- They would get a total of 10 goals and 18 points for Boyle, Pyatt, Powe and Asham

- The likes of Christian Thomas, Benn Ferriero, Brandon Mashinter, Kris Newbury, JT Miller, Brandon Segal, Matt Gilroy, Stu Bickel, Roman Hamrlik, Josh Halpern and Michael Haley would combine for over 60 games played and contribute a total of 7 points

- That Derek Stepan would lead the team in scoring

- That Rick Nash would have as many goals as he did assists

- That Anton Stralman would have more goals than Michael Del Zotto

Would you think that this team would make it to the second round of the playoffs?
Bolded indicates the underachievers. Boyle, Pyatt, Powe and Asham, if they score a career average in goals gets you another 15 or so (short season half that), Richards obviously had his head up his ass, Del Zotto struggled, McDonagh, Girardi, Callahan, Hagelin all had stretches where they didn't play very good hockey.

Second round? Yes, they started to click towards the end, and actually play up to their potential (never reached it). They got beat by a better team in the 2nd round, absolutely. Had everyone been healthy and performing at their potential who knows? Probably still lose that round, Boston started clicking at the right time and were a very good team for 2.5 rounds of the playoffs, then hardly showed up for the finals.

The point is that last years team certainly wasn't great, and I do believe we're in a better position now, but they also weren't the worst roster ever put together, a lot of the issues had to do with the team not playing how they are capable of playing, and a lot of that had to do with the fact that the players stopped responding to the coach, whose job it is to get his players to play at their potential. They stop listening to you when you scream and call them names? Change your approach and try to get their respect back, or lose your job. Easy choice for most people, admirable trait of Torts is that he doesn't back down from who he is and believes it's the "right way" I respect him, but it's also his Achilles heel.


Last edited by Barbara Underhill: 08-23-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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Old
08-23-2013, 02:26 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Bolded indicates the underachievers. Boyle, Pyatt, Powe and Asham, if they score a career average in goals gets you another 15 or so, Richards obviously had his head up his ass, Del Zotto struggled, McDonagh, Girardi, Callahan, Hagelin all had stretches where they didn't play very good hockey.
So doesn't this basically support my point that they played better than it actually was?

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The point is that last years team certainly wasn't great, and I do believe we're in a better position now, but they also weren't the worst roster ever put together, a lot of the issues had to do with the team not playing how they are capable of playing, and a lot of that had to do with the fact that the players stopped responding to the coach, whose job it is to get his players to play at their potential. They stop listening to you when you scream and call them names? Change your approach and try to get their respect back, or lose your job. Easy choice for most people, admirable trait of Torts is that he doesn't back down from who he is and believes it's the "right way" I respect him, but it's also his Achilles heel.
It wasn't the worst roster. But I didn't see a lot awful lot of offensive talent that just looked stymied. Richards is obviously on the downside of his career (not sure how a coach solves that). Zuccarello neds to prove he can hold up to the wear and tear of a full season (not sure how a coach solves that). Nash, Stepan and Brassard managed to be pretty effective.

Rather than hoping someone like Richards plays up to his potential and getting more from the likes of Boyle and Pyatt the two more pressing questions to me are: 1) has Derek Stepan turned the corner and is a legit #1 C now? and 2) Is Derick Brassard the guy he was in Columbus or the guy who played the best hockey of his career down the stretch?

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08-23-2013, 02:44 PM
  #288
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So doesn't this basically support my point that they played better than it actually was?
Yes, and no. When 20% of your roster doesn't perform to their potential it's going to be a long season. Given that they had to carry some dead weight, absolutely they overachieved at times although I think they were lacking most of the time.

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It wasn't the worst roster. But I didn't see a lot awful lot of offensive talent that just looked stymied. Richards is obviously on the downside of his career (not sure how a coach solves that). Zuccarello neds to prove he can hold up to the wear and tear of a full season (not sure how a coach solves that). Nash, Stepan and Brassard managed to be pretty effective.

Rather than hoping someone like Richards plays up to his potential and getting more from the likes of Boyle and Pyatt the two more pressing questions to me are: 1) has Derek Stepan turned the corner and is a legit #1 C now? and 2) Is Derick Brassard the guy he was in Columbus or the guy who played the best hockey of his career down the stretch?
Richards IS on the downside of his career, I won't argue that, but I have a hard time believing that it will be as sharp of a drop off as this year indicated. I think he was out of shape and didn't have his head on straight, he was still producing at a decent rate, it was his play everywhere else on the ice that really hurt us. He certainly wasn't making good decisions most of the time, but production wise it wasn't horrible. Not as bad as you would have thought after watching him. So while he is going to decline because that's what players 30+ do the majority of the time, I'm thinking/hoping it's a little more gradual.

Zuccarrello was fine and is an exception in my opinion because he isn't well seasoned in the NHL, not really anything a coach can do there except utilize him in situations that are going to set him up to grow. I really don't have much of an issue with how he was used either, small sample size and all.

As for the pressing questions with Stepan and Brassard, I guess we'll see. I believe Stepan is there, he's improved quite nicely since his rookie season which is nice to see considering how many guys end up taking an eventual step back or don't improve as rapidly. I don't think he's reached his ceiling yet either.

Brassard is a question mark, but you can tell NY is a much better fit for him and he was much more involved in all aspects of the game. There is something to say about pride, and I think he is proud the Rangers wanted him and trusted him to come in and be a key player for them. He's also one of the few players that wasn't fully indoctrinated by Torts, which was something Torts spoke on in one of his interviews. That's the kind of freedom is something the forwards will get with AV, which given the personalities and all that jazz might actually be just what they needed.

Brass would have eventually butted heads with Torts and probably reverted back to his CBJ days, that's why I'm optimistic for him with a more player friendly coach.

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08-23-2013, 03:42 PM
  #289
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Glen Sather interview

https://s3.amazonaws.com/the-jason-g...+August+22.mp3

Sather referred to Torts as "Tonelli". Wrong guy He watched John in "Edmonton".

He discussed the coaching change. Didn't like the John offensive system. He said Richards spent the summer negotiating the CBA so that's why he came to camp in bad shape. Please stop. Richards was in there negotiating the CBA on a daily basis. Richy was the right hand guy for the Fehr's. Stop. He went to a few meetings where he watched the lawyers talk to each other. Trading players with big contracts. He got some the cap limits wrong. Discussed Stepan. He was asked about Boyle. Isn't anxious to trade Boyle. Staal is 100%. Fully recovered. Sather is in Banff right now.

Thankfully the Rangers have Jeff Gorton.

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08-23-2013, 03:47 PM
  #290
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Im taking that plan with a grain of salt. Considering all the free agents the team has after this season, I somehow cant see the team revisiting Stepan's contract until all the other stuff is squared away.
If you listen to the actual interview,it doesn't like the Rangers will give Stepan an extension next summer after signing a two year contract in the near future. Sather was all over the place in that interview.

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08-23-2013, 03:53 PM
  #291
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Glen Sather interview

https://s3.amazonaws.com/the-jason-g...+August+22.mp3

Sather referred to Torts as "Tonelli". Wrong guy He watched John in "Edmonton".

He discussed the coaching change. Didn't like the John offensive system. He said Richards spent the summer negotiating the CBA so that's why he came to camp in bad shape. Please stop. Richards was in there negotiating the CBA on a daily basis. Richy was the right hand guy for the Fehr's. Stop. He went to a few meetings where he watched the lawyers talk to each other. Trading players with big contracts. He got some the cap limits wrong. Discussed Stepan. He was asked about Boyle. Isn't anxious to trade Boyle. Staal is 100%. Fully recovered. Sather is in Banff right now.

Thankfully the Rangers have Jeff Gorton.
**** maybe Sather thought he was firing Tonelli. Gonna make for an awkward start of camp.

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08-23-2013, 04:05 PM
  #292
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Sather discussed the TV contracts. The CBC HNIC contract expires after the 13-14 season. The NHL wants to add a 2nd weekend package involving the Canadian teams for the network which loses out on the Saturday package. Sunday package. Those contracts would begin in 14-15 and would be calculated in the 15-16 cap.CBC has exclusive negotiating rights until the end of this month. The CBC contract is worth $200M per. The NHL wants $400M.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle13571882/

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08-23-2013, 04:27 PM
  #293
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**** maybe Sather thought he was firing Tonelli. Gonna make for an awkward start of camp.
It was nice to hear that Richards' golf game didnt slip after all his CBA negotiating last year.

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08-23-2013, 04:36 PM
  #294
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The Rangers have two players at the NHLPA Rookie Showcase

Kristo and McIlrath

http://www.nhlpa.com/news/2013-nhlpa...owcase-preview

Christian Thomas is there for Montreal. McIlrath will be happy about that.

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08-23-2013, 04:47 PM
  #295
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No matter what the reason was, lockout, not thinking they would play etc, it's CLEAR Richards came in out of shape and I don't think he ever recovered. not making an excuse because it's his job to be ready.. I think we will see a MUCH different Richards this year. FWIW, Hank already mentioned Richards looks a ton better skating than he did all of last year

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08-23-2013, 04:47 PM
  #296
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It was nice to hear that Richards' golf game didnt slip after all his CBA negotiating last year.
Or that the lockout allotted Slats some primo hunting time.

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08-23-2013, 04:53 PM
  #297
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Glen Sather interview

https://s3.amazonaws.com/the-jason-g...+August+22.mp3

Sather referred to Torts as "Tonelli". Wrong guy He watched John in "Edmonton".

He discussed the coaching change. Didn't like the John offensive system. He said Richards spent the summer negotiating the CBA so that's why he came to camp in bad shape. Please stop. Richards was in there negotiating the CBA on a daily basis. Richy was the right hand guy for the Fehr's. Stop. He went to a few meetings where he watched the lawyers talk to each other. Trading players with big contracts. He got some the cap limits wrong. Discussed Stepan. He was asked about Boyle. Isn't anxious to trade Boyle. Staal is 100%. Fully recovered. Sather is in Banff right now.

Thankfully the Rangers have Jeff Gorton.
How dare you mock the teflon GM for life! 13 years in and things are still going right according to plan

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08-23-2013, 06:56 PM
  #298
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I am not saying that Slats hasn't done a decent job here in NY lately, but this is basically pretty scary:
"If you run a forechecking system, your centericemen is going to be the player highest up ice".

Yeah, that was the case in 1985. Was it the case in 1992? I doubt it was the case for many teams. It has not even remotely been the case in the NHL the last 15 years. I know we had our centers really high up ice in 03' when Slats coached, but still back then our LW got in first no doubt.

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08-23-2013, 07:12 PM
  #299
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I am not saying that Slats hasn't done a decent job here in NY lately, but this is basically pretty scary:
"If you run a forechecking system, your centericemen is going to be the player highest up ice".

Yeah, that was the case in 1985. Was it the case in 1992? I doubt it was the case for many teams. It has not even remotely been the case in the NHL the last 15 years. I know we had our centers really high up ice in 03' when Slats coached, but still back then our LW got in first no doubt.
Yeah, this latest interview suggests that he isn't more than a figurehead these days. It has probably been more or less like that for years. He seems so disconnected from the game.

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08-23-2013, 07:21 PM
  #300
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From the interview @ 13:05, talking about Stepan:

"I'm not going to give him a long term contract at this stage."

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