HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Top 10 in Scoring & Selke Voting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-29-2013, 05:19 PM
  #76
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
As a Wings fan I think Datsyuk is a better defensive player than Zetterberg, mainly because he controls the flow of the game better than most players in the league. He's better than Zetterberg in the offensive zone, and neutral zone, and a better transitional player.

Zetterberg is better at traditional defense and is a better one on one type of guy, but overall I'll take Datsyuk.

Also of note, Datsyuk finished 3rd in Hart voting in 08/09, a year he won the Selke.

Agree 100%
There‘s more to being great defensively than just backchecking and playing well positionally.
Forechecking and puck possession are extremely valuable in making a good defensive player great.
This is EXACTLY why Dats stands out over Zetts overall defensively.
It‘s also why Gilmour and Fedorov stood out as well.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-29-2013, 10:34 PM
  #77
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,077
vCash: 500
some really interesting points in thsi thread.

One thing about the Selke though is that "the standard" for the Selke has been a little bit all over the map and there is probably more divergence on opinions than on other trophies like the Hart, Norris or Calder.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 02:30 AM
  #78
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
To me at least, that's what makes Datsyuk great. I don't think there's a forward in the league that gets the play moving in the right direction better than Datsyuk. It may impact his defensive play in the traditional sense (body positioning, etc.) but I think it has an effect on the number of GA scored while he's on the ice.
i think that's right.

i still think zetterberg has slightly better defensive positioning, but he is less effective defensively b/c he spends more time in the defensive zone and is less disruptive before opponents set up possession.

i think zetterberg has also declined defensively. datsyuk has as well, imo, but not as much. zetterberg is not as good on faceoffs, not as good a territorial player, turns over the puck more (particularly in his own end, but that is probably also related to the decline in team D and in quality of d-men in last few seasons)

GA of datsyuk and zetterberg have diverged since i posted that comment. zetterberg has been scored on quite a lot more since '08, whereas datsyuk's GA have basically been the same. looking backward, i think zetterberg's GA have increased partly b/c of the separation from datsyuk's ability to drive possession, which is more important now that lidstrom and rafalski are gone and the team overall is less talented.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
My two cents on Datsyuk and Zetterberg, as I watch these guys all the time:

Zetterberg takes less chances. On a loose puck in the offensive zone, he is more likely to assume it is lost and return home than Pavel is. With the puck in the offensive zone he is more likely to circle the perimeter (nice puck protector), and also more likely to simply 'get it at the net' than Datsyuk. Without the puck he is better at gluing himself to his mark than Pav. He is on the PK more often, but in the defensive end I can't tell them apart - they both work very hard, take away lanes, break up plays on the boards, etc.
i think another reason zetterberg gets scored on more is that zetterberg plays deeper in the offensive zone. he has less time to recover defensively, and is not as fast or effective on backcheck. opponents get out of their zone and through the neutral zone more easily.

datsyuk generally plays higher in the offensive zone, and passes to the point very often. in last couple of seasons, datsyuk sometimes plays like a defensive midfielder.

in last couple of seasons, datsyuk has PKed a bit more, mostly b/c zetterberg's faceoff ability has declined.

Quote:
Datsyuk - like someone said on this thread (years ago), he takes more chances, tries to counterattack. He wins more faceoffs, too. He abandons his check, and hangs around the offensive zone when a puck is loose more often than Z, hoping for a chance at net. He is more likely on offense to drive the net, or try to beat guys one on one. He makes up for his extra second of hanging out offensively with an unparalleled ability to get back and take a puck off his man without taking a hooking penalty. Whether from behind, or from the front, or on the boards, offensively or defensively, I have never seen anyone win puck battles so easily. I don't mean that once he has the puck he doesn't lose it, like a Forsberg or Jagr, and I don't mean 'battles' like he shoves guys around (although his strength is way underrated), i mean, the puck is going to end up on his stick way more frequently than it should. And it doesn't matter if his opposition is playing him hard physically, or with the stick. He doesn't move, and he gets the puck. Then he takes a little extra time to decide what he wants to do with it. Lidstrom didn't even do that, Nik always had his next, safe, move planned as he got his stick on it, it was gone. Pav can just take that thing again if he loses it, so he sits on it, and waits to see what develops.
agree

datsyuk often attacks the puck when opponents do not yet have secure possession or a secure outlet, which is very disruptive, even though that often leaves an opening. when teammates have good structure and block outlets, it is very successful, and is a sort of zone-forechecking. it also gives other F's more time to recover defensively. he sometimes even does this in the defensive zone, though not as much. his takeaway stats also do not reflect how disruptive he is. for every takeaway, datsyuk breaks up 3 or 4 plays and forces opponents to regroup.

imo, datsyuk's weakness is that he focuses too much on the puck. he relies too much on being able to steal the puck.

i have been watching him for his whole NHL career, and have seen thousands of his steals, but i was really amazed when i saw this a few weeks ago.


Last edited by nik jr: 04-30-2013 at 08:12 AM.
nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 03:44 AM
  #79
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,723
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
The slow-mo replay makes it all the more amazing. When you actually see him tap/lift his stick before attacking the puck and then putting it between his legs in one fluid motion you're like wow. But then you watch it again in full speed after realizing what exactly he did and it's just stupid. I can't think of any other way to describe it.

Thanks for posting that. I wasn't watching the NBCSN feed during the game so I've never seen the replay.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 09:30 AM
  #80
tombombadil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Kelowna, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,030
vCash: 500
that steal is something else.

I agree he disrupts plays many times more than he gets clean steals.

I don't think his D has gone down, and I think the Selke is a reputation award. When Datsyuk was winning all of them, sometimes he was barely getting more votes than the other Usual Suspects. Kesler, Bergeron, and this time Toews, all had to get theirs. Its Paul Newman in the Color of Money voting.

In fact, I don't think there has been as impressive of a year by Pav as THIS year. I'm serious. The Wings' forwards spend far more time digging the puck out of their own zone than ever before (Lidstrom), they have less energy, and more ice to cover any time they come out with it. They also don't have #5 starting the break out, and man, have their breakouts looked ugly this year. Not the same team at all. Its Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and Howard, carrying everyone - whereas in previous years they benefitted from being on a great puck-possession team.

Through watching how easily he's won his battles this year, how many turnovers and scoring chances he's forced, and the fact that he finished top 10 in scoring (barely) while playing all facets of the game, and having very, very little support scoring from the second and third lines... i seriously think this is his best year, AT LEAST since 2008... and i think its better.

tombombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 10:01 AM
  #81
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
likely Toews will get the Selke to make up for probably not getting the Hart.
Just call it "pulling a Gilmour". Get one less-prestigious trophy that you are a candidate for because you don't win the more-presitigous trophy a lot of people think you have a good case to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I had a similar thought; if being ranked on 2 of 63 ballots is enough to get 11th place, then in some years, 9th and 10th aren't going to be much better, if at all.

Have you found any particular years that are problematic at the lower end of the top 10?
Yzerman's (1-1-0) would have ranked him 8th in 1992-93 with 8 points (Flatley was 8th with 7; we'll assume he 1st place vote being theoretically assinged to Yzerman is ninth-place Mike Keane's vote just to avoid a total shuffle). He actually had (0-1-0) for 14th place. Further proof of his pre-Bowman two-way pedigree.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 11:29 AM
  #82
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
that steal is something else.

I agree he disrupts plays many times more than he gets clean steals.

I don't think his D has gone down, and I think the Selke is a reputation award. When Datsyuk was winning all of them, sometimes he was barely getting more votes than the other Usual Suspects. Kesler, Bergeron, and this time Toews, all had to get theirs. Its Paul Newman in the Color of Money voting.
agree about selke. there seems to be a sentiment now around toews that he has put in enough time and has not won, so he should win. i don't see how he has been better than bergeron or datsyuk. i would vote for bergeron.

mike richards almost won in '09, but i think that was mostly about his SH goals. richards ES D is not especially good, imo.

i think zetterberg should have in '08 and kesler in '10. at the time i wanted datsyuk to win in '08, b/c i had never seen anyone steal or knock away the puck so much, but zetterberg had a bigger defensive role.

sami pahlsson should have won in '07.

Quote:
In fact, I don't think there has been as impressive of a year by Pav as THIS year. I'm serious. The Wings' forwards spend far more time digging the puck out of their own zone than ever before (Lidstrom), they have less energy, and more ice to cover any time they come out with it. They also don't have #5 starting the break out, and man, have their breakouts looked ugly this year. Not the same team at all. Its Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and Howard, carrying everyone - whereas in previous years they benefited from being on a great puck-possession team.

Through watching how easily he's won his battles this year, how many turnovers and scoring chances he's forced, and the fact that he finished top 10 in scoring (barely) while playing all facets of the game, and having very, very little support scoring from the second and third lines... i seriously think this is his best year, AT LEAST since 2008... and i think its better.
you're certainly right about puck possession and breakouts. it was very common for a d-man to try to skate in the defensive zone with an opposing F right on his side. they also often looked bad under forecheck.

part of it is that the team is just not very talented anymore, but it's also a move by babcock toward a more defensive style of play to compensate for the lack of talent. although he has been coaching a puck possession team, babcock seems to prefer grinding hockey. in '07, he was moving DRW towards dump and chase hockey until a revolt by players and then management ended it. and then '08 DRW were the best puck possession team i have seen in the NHL.

imo, datsyuk was better overall in '08, '09 (his best season, imo), '11 and '12, though not after his injuries in '11 and especially '12. he was fairly mediocre after his knee injury and surgery. skating was a lot worse, and he fell down a lot.

i think he is not as fast and seems to get tired more quickly. he has not had the same energy level this season as in the past, and he also seems to be easier to knock over. i have speculated that it is related to his knee injury and surgery last season. he is also not as physical as he was a couple of years ago, and not as involved on the boards. imo, datsyuk has been the team's best player on the boards for years, but this season he more often let his W's work the boards.

i think this season is weak among F's. malkin was injured. sedins were not as good. stamkos had a sluggish end to the season. giroux started poorly and did not play his best. perry, parise, hossa, kopitar, richards, gaborik, etc, could have been better. crosby was obviously amazing until he got injured, though.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 11:40 AM
  #83
tombombadil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Kelowna, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,030
vCash: 500
i think part of his apparent fatigue is how much extra workload there is for him and Z this year. Although, Z is an animal, and doesn't seem to slow down.

I had completely neglected physical play, you are right. He doesn't hit as much, and I have seen him knocked over more this year. Maybe he hasn't been as much of a gym rat after surgery?

This year still stands out to me, but it could be that, as a Wings' fan, I'm worried unless he is on the ice. He is team MVP, in my mind. And, after Howard and Zetterberg, there's a pretty big drop, other than the last 2 weeks, where Franzen was playing his size.

Side note - I feel safer with Ericsson in the defensive zone than I do with Kronwall. Am i wrong?

tombombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 12:14 PM
  #84
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
i think part of his apparent fatigue is how much extra workload there is for him and Z this year. Although, Z is an animal, and doesn't seem to slow down.

I had completely neglected physical play, you are right. He doesn't hit as much, and I have seen him knocked over more this year. Maybe he hasn't been as much of a gym rat after surgery?

This year still stands out to me, but it could be that, as a Wings' fan, I'm worried unless he is on the ice. He is team MVP, in my mind. And, after Howard and Zetterberg, there's a pretty big drop, other than the last 2 weeks, where Franzen was playing his size.

Side note - I feel safer with Ericsson in the defensive zone than I do with Kronwall. Am i wrong?
i don't think datsyuk took charge of games as he did a couple of years ago, but i know that is partly b/c the team is weaker and they spend so much more time grinding.

i think ericsson was better defensively this season, which is surprising in hindsight, b/c ericsson was a marginal NHLer in '11. kronwall is a better overall player, but his D seems to be overrated by other fans b/c he hits, plays for detroit and possibly also b/c he is swedish (swedes have a reputation for smart 2 way play). i would not say ericsson is a great defensive player, though.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 01:18 PM
  #85
tombombadil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Kelowna, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,030
vCash: 500
ya, Kronwall is overrated, probably for the Swedish reason, but for sure because of his hits and point totals - he has a bit of a Rob Blake thing going on. Not that Blake, or Kronwall, are bad, just that their defense isn't as good as their hits make it look.

tombombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 11:16 PM
  #86
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i don't think datsyuk took charge of games as he did a couple of years ago, but i know that is partly b/c the team is weaker and they spend so much more time grinding.

i think ericsson was better defensively this season, which is surprising in hindsight, b/c ericsson was a marginal NHLer in '11. kronwall is a better overall player, but his D seems to be overrated by other fans b/c he hits, plays for detroit and possibly also b/c he is swedish (swedes have a reputation for smart 2 way play). i would not say ericsson is a great defensive player, though.
I would say you are underrating Ericsson.

People fretted about the loss of Brad Stuart in the offseason. Brad Stuart was our worst defenseman last year in the playoffs, better than only Kindl and Quincey among regulars during the regular season, and hasn't been that good since 2009-10. Posters wondered how he would be replaced. He already was replaced; last year Ericsson was the go-to defensive defenseman, not Stuart. The guy who needed replacing was Ericsson's old role. And Quincey's done a fine job filling that after a poor start and a lot of hate because of what it cost to get him back.

Which leaves Lidstrom. Kronwall has that job, which means someone takes his old one, right? Everyone expected that to be Smith, but it's Jakub Kindl - who has been excellent. Danny Dekeyser has provided more quality on top of what I've. Although at his size, he can't really be an Ericsson replacement just yet despite the fact that he is outplaying Quincey.

Kronwall has provided offense as advertised, and after a shaky start defensively playing opposite an AHL partner in Brian Lashoff he managed to settle things down in his own end (for the most part).

Kronwall is easily a top-20 defenseman, probably inside the top 15. Ericsson this season has been on a level close to Kronwall most of the year; and he has done it through his defensive play. Is he a #1? Not at this point. But a solid #2? He is certainly making a case for it.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2013, 08:17 PM
  #87
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,345
vCash: 500
One addition to the list for 2013: Pavel Datsyuk was 10th in scoring (tied) and 3rd in Selke voting. This is the third time in his career's he on the "ten and ten" list. Only Kurri and Francis have more seasons (tied with Forsberg, Gilmour and Sakic).

Jonathan Toews was one point away from 10th in scoring (tied) and he won the Selke in one of the closest races ever.

Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2013, 08:30 PM
  #88
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I would say you are underrating Ericsson.

People fretted about the loss of Brad Stuart in the offseason. Brad Stuart was our worst defenseman last year in the playoffs, better than only Kindl and Quincey among regulars during the regular season, and hasn't been that good since 2009-10. Posters wondered how he would be replaced. He already was replaced; last year Ericsson was the go-to defensive defenseman, not Stuart. The guy who needed replacing was Ericsson's old role. And Quincey's done a fine job filling that after a poor start and a lot of hate because of what it cost to get him back.

Which leaves Lidstrom. Kronwall has that job, which means someone takes his old one, right? Everyone expected that to be Smith, but it's Jakub Kindl - who has been excellent. Danny Dekeyser has provided more quality on top of what I've. Although at his size, he can't really be an Ericsson replacement just yet despite the fact that he is outplaying Quincey.

Kronwall has provided offense as advertised, and after a shaky start defensively playing opposite an AHL partner in Brian Lashoff he managed to settle things down in his own end (for the most part).

Kronwall is easily a top-20 defenseman, probably inside the top 15. Ericsson this season has been on a level close to Kronwall most of the year; and he has done it through his defensive play. Is he a #1? Not at this point. But a solid #2? He is certainly making a case for it.

It's good to be positive but...
You can sit here and say that Kronwall's spot has been filled adequately and it prolly has but that's still glossing over the fact that Kronwall does not adequately replace Lidstrom.
I'm just hoping that that is not what you were implying there.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2013, 08:26 AM
  #89
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,646
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
One addition to the list for 2013: Pavel Datsyuk was 10th in scoring (tied) and 3rd in Selke voting. This is the third time in his career's he on the "ten and ten" list. Only Kurri and Francis have more seasons (tied with Forsberg, Gilmour and Sakic).

Jonathan Toews was one point away from 10th in scoring (tied) and he won the Selke in one of the closest races ever.
Bergeron actually had more first place votes.

I was surprised Bergeron didn't win, but the Selke has to be the most difficult Trophy to vote on.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2013, 08:40 AM
  #90
DisgruntledGoat
Registered User
 
DisgruntledGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
One addition to the list for 2013: Pavel Datsyuk was 10th in scoring (tied) and 3rd in Selke voting. This is the third time in his career's he on the "ten and ten" list. Only Kurri and Francis have more seasons (tied with Forsberg, Gilmour and Sakic).
Interesting that those names show up in a topic designed almost exclusively to praise Red Wings.

Interesting because there's certain poster who loves to hype up throw-away Selke votes in reference to Yzerman and Fedorov while also off-handedly discounting those three players' defensive resumes. . .

DisgruntledGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2013, 08:50 AM
  #91
skillhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Datsyuk winning the Selke feels a bit like someone voting for say Rafalski over Lidstrom for the Norris. Zetterberg is, and has been, Babcock's primary defensive weapon up front. Whenever they get put together Pavel has joked that he likes playing on Z's wing because he doesn't have to worry so much about defense. It's not so much that Pavel isn't worthy, but that a guy on his own team is even better.

EDIT - maybe the Raf analogy is a bit strong. Say '02 with Lidstrom and Chelios. Nick was #1 and Cheli #2.
Zetterberg is primary weapon in playoffs because he plays dirty and gets away with it, Datsyuk plays like Lady Byng winners do. Datsyuk is a lot better player in every aspect of game. Zetterberg just wears down opponents with his slashes, pushes, etc.

skillhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #92
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,602
vCash: 500
Top ten in points + Selke trophy

How many times has this been achieved in history, and who has done it the most?

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2013, 12:39 PM
  #93
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 500
Gilmour in 1992-1993 finished 7th in scoring with 127 points and a Selke win.

Fedorov in 1993-1994 finished 2nd in scoring with 120 points and a Selke win.

Francis in 1994-1995 finished 5th in scoring with 59 points and a Selke win.

Fedorov in 1995-1996 finished 9th in scoring with 107 points and a Selke win.

Yzerman in 1999-2000 finished 10th in scoring with 79 points and a Selke win.

Datsyuk in 2007-2008 finished 4th in scoring with 97 points and a Selke win.

Datsyuk in 2008-2009 finished 4th in scoring with 97 points and a Selke win.


Last edited by Beau Knows: 08-23-2013 at 12:49 PM.
Beau Knows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2013, 12:42 PM
  #94
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
How many times has this been achieved in history, and who has done it the most?
Sounds like just the sort of thing Hockey Outsider would have already done a study on.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2013, 12:47 PM
  #95
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Sounds like just the sort of thing Hockey Outsider would have already done a study on.
Awesome, thanks to the both of you.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2013, 01:06 PM
  #96
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Bergeron actually had more first place votes.

I was surprised Bergeron didn't win, but the Selke has to be the most difficult Trophy to vote on.
Didn't realize that. I also thought Bergeron should have won, but a great two-way season by Toews nonetheless.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2014, 09:31 PM
  #97
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,345
vCash: 500
Two new additions to the list for 2014:

- Ryan Getzlaf was 2nd in scoring and 10th in Selke voting
- Joe Pavelski was 8th in scoring (tied) and 8th in Selke voting

Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.