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Most useless or inaccurate stat in hockey?

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:12 PM
  #26
BlueDream
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Giveaways, and Corsi.

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08-23-2013, 04:13 PM
  #27
Harold Snepsts
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Corsi
+/-
Hits
Takeaways/Giveaways


+/- can have some usefulness given the right context, but it's so often used in support of something it in no way measures.

Hits, takeaways and giveaways in theory would be useful but are all so subjective and have such wide variance in how they're recorded.

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08-23-2013, 04:13 PM
  #28
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Shooting percentage.

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:16 PM
  #29
eklunds source
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
+/- is actually incredibly underrated on these boards. Of course it's a context driven stat. That's a given. But looking at +/- over a long period of time (think multiple years) is definitely worthwhile.
Not really.

First of all, +/- in the traditional sense includes goals against while on the powerplay, and goals for while shorthanded. Very rarely is that "useful" information about a player.

Second, +/- is almost entirely luck and team effects - also entirely useless information about a player.

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08-23-2013, 04:16 PM
  #30
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+/- is the most useless stat, and I cringe every time I see it used to compare players from different teams and even from different years. Its purely a team metric, and even at that its more of a top 6/bottom 6 comparsion.

Wins for goalies is the second most useless. Its tough to read people say that wins are more important than sv % for goalies. A goalie with a crappy sv % but with good wins just means the team won despite his bad play. Wins is a team metric. The way wins can be applied to goalies can also be applied to 4th line plugs

Hits. Also so misused its amusing. Like when posters compare hits for different teams and then say that since one team hits more there are therefore a tougher team and a better team. No. Puck possession and hits have an inverse relationship. If you have the puck you dont have to hit. And having possession of the puck leads to way more goals than throwing a hit. Give me puck possession all day long.

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08-23-2013, 04:17 PM
  #31
BigTuna49
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How can a stat be inaccurate?

The fact that so many people are saying +/- leads me to believe a lot of people don't know how to utilize it effectively.

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08-23-2013, 04:19 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTuna49 View Post
How can a stat be inaccurate?
Scorer bias. Go to NHL.com and separate the real-time stats in to "home" and "away" and see which arenas have people who are bad at their jobs.

EDIT: For example, the ACC scorers counted the Leafs giving up the puck 405 times in 24 games during the 2013 season. In all other arenas they were counted as giving the puck away 149 times.

So either the Leafs really like to give the puck away at home (to the tune of 270% more), or else the stats guys there are a little liberal with what counts as a give-away.

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:19 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
+/- is much more reflective of dumb luck than the team he's on.
+/- probably is the biggest joke of a stat, but I think almost every fan is aware of that. I'm not so sure that's the case with Corsi. I'm so often amazed at how people present this "data" in a such scientific way that I actually have to remind myself that they really believe what they're saying and are not trying to do a parody of a scientific presentation for comedic effect.

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08-23-2013, 04:20 PM
  #34
JoeCool16
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Corsi.

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:21 PM
  #35
WarriorofTime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Not really.

First of all, +/- in the traditional sense includes goals against while on the powerplay, and goals for while shorthanded. Very rarely is that "useful" information about a player.

Second, +/- is almost entirely luck and team effects - also entirely useless information about a player.
There's nothing lucky about players like Toews and Crosby having a great +/- The stat should be taken at face value. How often are goals scored vs. goals scored against while you're on the ice. Nobody considers it the most useful measurement of a player ever. I've never heard anybody claim that. I see plenty of people dismiss it entirely though because maybe their poor defensive big point producer doesnt get reflected well by it.

Speaking of which, points are overrated. If a player scores 5 more points he's instantly seen as a better contributer to winning than a guy who plays a much better two way game. Defense is just as important as offense. "It's the defensemans job to play defense" is so 1980s.

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08-23-2013, 04:22 PM
  #36
JeffMangum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTuna49 View Post
How can a stat be inaccurate?

The fact that so many people are saying +/- leads me to believe a lot of people don't know how to utilize it effectively.
And that's usually the issue. That's the biggest issue with Corsi, the people who try and use it rarely know how to use it effectively.

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:24 PM
  #37
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Comparing +/- with players from different teams.

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08-23-2013, 04:24 PM
  #38
ManofSteel55
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Any stat can be useless if it isn't taken into context properly.

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08-23-2013, 04:29 PM
  #39
Seth Rollins
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Corsi is beyond useless.

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08-23-2013, 04:33 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Rollins View Post
Corsi is beyond useless.
Corsi is a tool like any other stat. The problem is with the handyman.

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08-23-2013, 04:36 PM
  #41
Chalupa Batman
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All statistics are flawed, and all statistics require context and proper skill to use correctly.

When someone says that "statistic X is beyond useless", what that typically means is that they have learned to see the flaws in statistic X, but have not yet learned to see the flaws in statistic Y (which they prefer).

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:36 PM
  #42
ot92s
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none are useless, they all make for great history reports.

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08-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #43
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Old
08-23-2013, 04:46 PM
  #44
Going Back to Cally
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Attendance is good just because most people seem to get them from ESPN who use outdated capacity figures. The definition of a hit also varies from arena to arena so that's another.

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08-23-2013, 04:51 PM
  #45
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I disagree about hits. Sure, it is counted different in different arenas, but you can compare players on the same team and tell who is more or less physical. +/- is useless without context, and so are giveaways. Any player that has the puck a lot and plays a lot will get quite a few.

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08-23-2013, 04:52 PM
  #46
hatterson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
All statistics are flawed, and all statistics require context and proper skill to use correctly.

When someone says that "statistic X is beyond useless", what that typically means is that they have learned to see the flaws in statistic X, but have not yet learned to see the flaws in statistic Y (which they prefer).
I swear I've seen you type this identical sentence in about 9 different threads and people still fail to get it.

Either way, if people want an inaccurate stat you'd be looking at subjective things like hits, giveaways, etc. which have incredible variance from arena to arena.

If you want a useless stat (on its own) you can pick any of the "OFF" statistics from behindthenet or stats.hockeyanalysis as they literally tell you nothing about a players actual performance.

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:53 PM
  #47
Chalupa Batman
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
I swear I've seen you type this identical sentence in about 9 different threads and people still fail to get it.
I do have my talking points.

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Old
08-23-2013, 04:58 PM
  #48
Blue Blooded
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I will pass by the obvious ones and mention those that I find inaccurate due to their acceptance among hockey fans.

Firstly, I'll second Brian Boyle's mention of points and would even like to add PPG. If you are going to adjust for something, use time on ice instead of games. And separate PP scoring from ES scoring, they are almost different skillsets! A player's special teams performance should not be taken into account when determining his position in the 5v5 lineup.

Then I'd like to move on to goalies. Most dismiss GAA as a useless stat as it is more team based than anything, and I agree. But raw Sv% is basically seen as gospel around these parts and I find that the stat can be misleading. No goalie can be expected to put up the same Sv% a man down as he does 5v5, so a goalie that plays for a heavily penalized team will see his raw Sv% suffer. An adjusted Sv% that weighs out situational use should therefore be preferred.

Taco has some interesting goalie statistics that I think should be put more front and centre on this site. Maybe a stickied goalie thread that is updated at regular intervals?

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Old
08-23-2013, 05:02 PM
  #49
gojackets1
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Any stat kept by the home team scorekeepers.

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Old
08-23-2013, 05:04 PM
  #50
Oil and Avs
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You know if a player doesnt have good intangibles then I would say every stat is useless

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