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Bossy vs Sakic

View Poll Results: Who ranks higher on your all time list?
Mike Bossy 97 57.06%
Joe Sakic 73 42.94%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-23-2013, 02:51 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
Lemieux, Gretzky, Richard, Bobby Hull, all say hello, no way is Bossy a better goalscorer than any of them. Then there's Brett Hull, Alex Ovechkin and Pavel Bure who are atleast as good as Bossy at scoring goals IMO.
Check the amount of seasons those other players you mentioned played and then check for Bossy and get back to us.

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08-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FilthyNote View Post
Oh silly Duche fan!

But seriously, I would vote Bossy here even if Sakic played his entire career with.... Florida and had the same stats, numbers, and awards. Bossy was pretty fantastic.

I actually like Sakic a lot. Just not the team he played for or the fans he played in front of the most
That's why I take any of your posts about our team with a grain of salt

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08-23-2013, 06:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ESH View Post
Ridiculously untrue statement.
Its not a statment its a request... And I didnt say who would be on top, I just said get back with me on the findings. Which you didn't even do so why did you even single that out and reply to it?

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08-23-2013, 07:04 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
Bossys GPG are better than all of the with Lemieux being close. Bossy scored at a GPG clip of .77 while Mario was .75 and all the other guys are around .55-.62.

He did not have the longevity but he scored at insane rates during his career. 9 out of his 10 years he had 50+ goals 5 of which were in the 60's. Another amazing thing is Bossy is 16th all time in even strength goals while only playing 10 seasons. He is also 3rd all time in ppg but a lot of that has to do with his goals. He reminds me of Koufax in baseball, someone who is an absolute all time great but did not play many seasons.

The more I think about it my AINEC reference was not correct but I stand by my opinion that Bossy was the best goal scorer of all time.
This is why Bossy get really overrated. His goals per game rate is really high because he played in the highest scoring era ever, and he didnt play any games past his prime.

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08-23-2013, 07:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by NewbieOfGames View Post
Sakic AINEC.

Sakic : about 5 seasons over 50 goals, win gold medal for Canada with the most useful player in tourney. Win stanley cup twice? An exemplary captain, always consistent and elite at everyting he was doing.
I don't even need to reply to this because a few people have already trashed your statment here but its good for everybody to be reminded of it. Also it relates to the following...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewbieOfGames View Post
And sakic was an exemplary captain, a true leader on his team and their top player. And overall, i couldn't care more of a player been archieving 50 goals in 1970. Overall Sakic have more goals than bossy in his entire career, and did it on a rougher period of time.
Then you go on to say this... You are completely dis-crediting your own statement just to adhere to your own agenda. All of a sudden you get proven wrong on your points so now those points dont matter. Sakic had more goals because *gasp* he played many more years because Bossy got injured.

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Originally Posted by NewbieOfGames View Post
The point was that Sakic has more goals than Bossy in his career. Sakic played more recently than Bossy in the NHL, thats huge considering Bossy played an era where some random players, say Gretsky, was archieving 200 poitns+ a season, it was surely easyer to score in that time, i won't come to why it was easyer but it was.
Pretty sure the only reason you are saying this is because you saw others post it. So here is a good chance for me to put in my two cents since I am already quoting you... If it was so much easier to score goals in that era then how come there weren't A LOT more than just a few really great players? Do you not believe that it's possible that a few great players just happened to all play at the same time?

Oh and please learn how to spell Gretzky... Thats hockey 101 and obviously not a type-o since you used an S in his name.

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08-23-2013, 07:16 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
People forget that Bossy was the 3rd most valuable player on his team, not the 1st. Sakic for me. More complete.
True, but Bossy was also top 10 most valuable player in the league pretty much his whole career (no shame to be third best on your team when the top two are top 40 players all-time).

Not a bad comparison between these two...I'm having a tough time making my pick. Gut tells me Bossy, but the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Sakic.

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08-23-2013, 07:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Then why didn't more players do it?
Injuries? Era? Bobby Hull was scoring 50 goals in 70 game seasons when his closest competitors were often in the 30s. Again, it's an impressive record, but it really is arbitrary when you consider the fluctuation in games played and goals per game throughout NHL history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Also, I think Mike Bossy's defensive game gets over looked because he was such a tremendous offensive player. That team was coached by Al Arbour, everyone played D or they sat in the press box.... regardless of the name on the back of the sweater.


While he wasn't a Selke level defender.... he wasn't hurting the team out there either.
Absolutely, but it isn't an advantage over Sakic, who was a plus defender for the second half of his career, and actually received lots of Selke support (if perhaps somewhat undeserved)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
Check the amount of seasons those other players you mentioned played and then check for Bossy and get back to us.
What does the number of seasons have to do with it? He isn't listing those players because they have more total goals, he's listing them because they outperformed their peers at goalscoring more than Bossy did.

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08-23-2013, 07:23 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
This is why Bossy get really overrated. His goals per game rate is really high because he played in the highest scoring era ever, and he didnt play any games past his prime.
Nonsense, you're ignoring how great his first 9 seasons are. Even if he regressed a lot, he'd still be among the greats.... I'd argue, it would have solidified his case even more as one of the greatest of all time.

Lets say he played another 5 years, and he played all 82 games each of those years and averaged 75 points.

That gives him a career mark of 1,501.... good enough for 14th all time between Makita and Coffey. Except, he would have done it in just 1,162 games or at least roughly 200 games less than everyone above him other than Mario (915).

He would have still been a 1.291 PPG player, good enough for 7th all time.

All that said, he showed absolutely no signs of slowing down for awhile, as he was on pace for another 50 goal, 97 point season the year he retired..... playing on a bad back.

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08-23-2013, 07:27 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
Injuries? Era? Bobby Hull was scoring 50 goals in 70 game seasons when his closest competitors were often in the 30s. Again, it's an impressive record, but it really is arbitrary when you consider the fluctuation in games played and goals per game throughout NHL history.
What?! You say it was because of the era..... I said "well, why didn't anyone else do it?"

Your response? Injuries... and Era.

Awesome lol..... I like this guy.

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08-23-2013, 08:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
What?! You say it was because of the era..... I said "well, why didn't anyone else do it?"

Your response? Injuries... and Era.

Awesome lol..... I like this guy.
Bossy was a great goal scorer (certainly one of the best all time), and his prime perfectly coincided with the highest scoring period in NHL history, which can really only also be said about Wayne Gretzky among other top tier all-time goal scorers.

Wayne Gretzky would have probably scored 50 goals or more for 10 straight years if he didn't miss 16 games in 1987-88 due to injury (ended with 40 goals in 64 games... to go along with 109 assists)

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08-23-2013, 08:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
What?! You say it was because of the era..... I said "well, why didn't anyone else do it?"

Your response? Injuries... and Era.

Awesome lol..... I like this guy.
Seriously? Bossy took advantage of his era, and was better than anyone else other than Gretzky (who could have beaten his record if he stayed healthy in '88) at scoring goals during that time. If you want an answer as to why guys like Michel Goulet and John Ogrodnick didn't do it, it's pretty obvious that it's because Bossy was better. But I'm not sure what other reason you want for why legitimate challengers for best goalscorer of all time didn't do it other than they didn't have the opportunity to due to era. Bobby Hull isn't going to do it in 70 game seasons in a lower scoring era. Maurice Richard isn't going to do it in 50/60/70 game seasons either. Mario Lemieux wasn't go to do it when he has 20-something game seasons scattered throughout his career.

There's lots of records and milestones over the years that are due mainly to circumstance and random cutoffs. I might as well ask you why Bossy couldn't hit 70 goals despite playing in the 80s. Surely such a great goalscorer could hit it, right? Gretzky did it four times. Lemieux did it twice. Hell, Selanne, Mogilny and Hull did it in the 90s! Bernie freaking Nicholls did it even! "Oh, but Bossy scored 69 goals one year and 68 another," you say, "Those are close enough." Well no, because arbitrary round number cutoffs are the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to judging players. Too bad.

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08-23-2013, 08:30 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I tend to think Bossy gets a bit overrated due to the 50 goal seasons. 50 goals then wasn't the same it is now, and while he had several years in the 60s he also had several of just over 50. He was a better goalscorer than Sakic, but Sakic was the better playmaker, better defensively and controlled the play better. As well while Bossy was a monster in the playoffs, Sakic had some epic runs himself. I think peak and prime is pretty close, but Sakic's longevity is amazing. I think I would take him.
Absolutely, if your organization had the choice who would they take? Was Bossy ever the best player in the world at any certain time?

Sakic was, he dominated in every aspect. Olympic MVP Conn Smythe Hart all in a short span. Brilliant player no weakness to his game.

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08-23-2013, 08:34 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
This is why Bossy get really overrated. His goals per game rate is really high because he played in the highest scoring era ever, and he didnt play any games past his prime.
Taking the same 9 years to start a career the GPG are:
Gretzky .85
Bobby Hull .64
Richard .61
Brett Hull .73

The only better one is Gretzky at .85 to .77...Did not do Mario since his GP are all over the place.

So even factoring the not playing past prime Bossy still has a better GPG than just about everyone who was said to be better save Gretzky. Also Bossy did not even get to finish his prime.

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08-23-2013, 08:35 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
Absolutely, if your organization had the choice who would they take? Was Bossy ever the best player in the world at any certain time?

Sakic was, he dominated in every aspect. Olympic MVP Conn Smythe Hart all in a short span. Brilliant player no weakness to his game.
While I picked Sakic, you can't really hold this against Bossy considering his prime lined up with Gretzky. And, while there's an argument that Sakic was the best player in the world from the 2000-01 season through to the '02 Olympics, I don't think I'd say he was ever considered the clear cut best player in the league (the way guys like Crosby, Jagr, etc have at times)

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08-23-2013, 08:37 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FilthyNote View Post

Pretty sure the only reason you are saying this is because you saw others post it. So here is a good chance for me to put in my two cents since I am already quoting you... If it was so much easier to score goals in that era then how come there weren't A LOT more than just a few really great players? Do you not believe that it's possible that a few great players just happened to all play at the same time?
This is an interesting perspective I never thought about it that way but a cool theory none the less. However after researching this I noticed the goalies were literally playing road hockey and their save percentages proved it. Not to mention not nearly as many Europeans flooding the league bringing the quality of play up.

Not to mention teams started to be physically fit eliminating time and space while playing systems.

I love Bossy but I have Sakic 4th overall on my list he was just so dominant in the early 2000's. In every way on every stage, the best.

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08-23-2013, 08:38 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
Taking the same 9 years to start a career the GPG are:
Gretzky .85
Bobby Hull .64
Richard .61
Brett Hull .73

The only better one is Gretzky at .85 to .77...Did not do Mario since his GP are all over the place.

So even factoring the not playing past prime Bossy still has a better GPG than just about everyone who was said to be better save Gretzky. Also Bossy did not even get to finish his prime.
It's not just about the years, it's about the level of scoring in the league.

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08-23-2013, 08:42 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
While I picked Sakic, you can't really hold this against Bossy considering his prime lined up with Gretzky. And, while there's an argument that Sakic was the best player in the world from the 2000-01 season through to the '02 Olympics, I don't think I'd say he was ever considered the clear cut best player in the league (the way guys like Crosby, Jagr, etc have at times)
Media perspective or player do you think?

Plenty of argument that Crosby is not the best player of his time, the media anoints him. He doesn't have a conn smythe or an Olympic MVP. He is probably the most talented but he hasn't shown up on the biggest stage outside of the golden goal. His play up to that point had been disappointing but Canada was such a powerhouse it didn't matter until the end. He barely played game 7 when they won the cup, Zetterberg has outplayed him back to back Stanley Cup finals.

Sakic lead Canada, Gagne Sakic Iginla was the best line in the tournament. Whether Sakic was snipping on the pp, breakaways or banking em off Iginlas stick and in he was scoring. He also has tied the record for most goals in a playoff championship with Kurri at 17. More then Bossy had in any one of his runs to the cup.

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08-23-2013, 08:46 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
It's not just about the years, it's about the level of scoring in the league.
It's also about consistency... Look at Bobby Hull his goal totals were:
39
31
50
31
43
39
54
52
44
58
All with about same games played so you can see there are some drastic drops and increases in there.
Richard looks about the same with drastic increases and decreases.

It just seems as if Bossy does not get the credit he deserves as a goal scorer because he had to retire. Bossy finished in top 3 scoring in 7 of 9 years playing.

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08-23-2013, 08:48 PM
  #69
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Bossy is in the argument for greatest pure goalscorer of all time (second to Bobby Hull on my list). Gotta go with him in this situation. Sakic was amazing, but gets a tad overrated at times.

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08-23-2013, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Bossy is in the argument for greatest pure goalscorer of all time (second to Bobby Hull on my list). Gotta go with him in this situation. Sakic was amazing, but gets a tad overrated at times.
There are 4 players close and that's Bossy, Gretzky, Hull, and Mario. But to hear names like Brett Hull, Bure, and Ovie being thrown around as better goal scorers is not close IMO. In order to be the best you have to be consistently scoring at a high clip.

I have probably sold Bobby a bit short but the others I stand by that they are not close to Bossy in goal scoring.

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08-23-2013, 09:01 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
This is an interesting perspective I never thought about it that way but a cool theory none the less. However after researching this I noticed the goalies were literally playing road hockey and their save percentages proved it. Not to mention not nearly as many Europeans flooding the league bringing the quality of play up.

Not to mention teams started to be physically fit eliminating time and space while playing systems.

I love Bossy but I have Sakic 4th overall on my list he was just so dominant in the early 2000's. In every way on every stage, the best.
No doubt it was a different game back then but I personally think you can only look at the facts here. I understand that some people want to say "well this era was different" or "Goals were easier to come by back then" ...etc. It makes for a good discussion.

Bossy was extremely consistent every year as well. Granted he didn't get to play as long as Sakic due to injury but I personally don't hold that against him.

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08-23-2013, 09:04 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
It's also about consistency... Look at Bobby Hull his goal totals were:
39
31
50
31
43
39
54
52
44
58
All with about same games played so you can see there are some drastic drops and increases in there.
Richard looks about the same with drastic increases and decreases.

It just seems as if Bossy does not get the credit he deserves as a goal scorer because he had to retire. Bossy finished in top 3 scoring in 7 of 9 years playing.
Here are their goal scoring finishes.

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Bossy: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7

Hull>Bossy

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08-23-2013, 09:14 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Here are their goal scoring finishes.

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Bossy: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7

Hull>Bossy
After looking at it I am willing to say Gretz>Hull>Bossy.

So I would have him a close 3rd.

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08-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by FilthyNote View Post
Its not a statment its a request... And I didnt say who would be on top, I just said get back with me on the findings. Which you didn't even do so why did you even single that out and reply to it?
Oops, I read that wrong.

But I would take Sakic's 2000-01 season above any of Bossy's. 54 goals, 118 points, a Hart trophy, Pearson. I think he might have been a Selke finalist that season too? I'm not sure. I don't put too much weight into Selkes, but it's still worth mentioning. He also lead the league in game-winning goals. The Avalanche also won the cup that year, with Sakic leading the playoffs in goals, points, and GWG.

I don't think adjusted statistics are the absolute best way to compare players, but in 00-01, Sakic had 128 adjusted points. Bossy's best was only 108, which is still good, but not as good.

I don't really feel like going more indepth into their 5 best seasons and such, but that's my opinion on who had the best season.

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08-24-2013, 04:52 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
Absolutely, if your organization had the choice who would they take? Was Bossy ever the best player in the world at any certain time?

Sakic was, he dominated in every aspect. Olympic MVP Conn Smythe Hart all in a short span. Brilliant player no weakness to his game.
I don't remember Sakic being the best player in the world at any time. Lemieux only played half a season during his Hart trophy year, Jagr outscored him. That doesn't mean Sakic wasn't an all time great player, I just don't remember him being the clear cut best in the league for even one minute.

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