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Trading the Sedin Twins

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Old
08-26-2013, 02:22 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
Base of Sedins + Corrado for Grigorenko + TyMy
No thanks.

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08-26-2013, 02:23 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
Base of Sedins + Corrado for Grigorenko + TyMy
Take out Corrado and I may just think about it.

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08-26-2013, 02:23 PM
  #103
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Sedins together are basically at least 140-150 points a season, they'd fetch a lot

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08-26-2013, 02:24 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by nlnl09 View Post
If the Canucks were going to trade the sedins (which i'm all for) it would definitely result in the end of our season. Under those circumstances there would be no reason why as a franchise we wouldn't maximize our gain by retaining salary.

I think a better question is what are the sedins worth with 50% cap hit retained?
Retaining salaries would work for us, if it meant not taking as much salary back (and 6.1 for both players means we take something back).

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
It is easy to pull out a few exceptional cases. But, few players are highly productive until their late 30s, let alone early 40s.

The entire reason Nuck fans are fantasizing about trading the Sedins is that they are impending UFAs, getting on in years, and iffy in the playoffs.

Those are the exact reasons you won't get a whole lot in a deal.
My comparison for what my expectations are for Iginla. Retaining salary would mean you get both, for less cap space, and I would expect something in the neighbourhood of double his value (1st, two ho hum prospects).

I'd also argue that their game isn't deteriorating at the same rate as Iginla in the last few years. That doesn't put them in Hossa or Kovalchuk rental packages in my eyes, but a blue chip prospect each, or a 1st, a prospect and a roster player each, or a younger player of slightly lower calibre each...I don't feel that is unreasonable for two probable point per game players.

St. Louis, Nashville, New York (Rangers), Ottawa (according to their fans), Detroit, Phoenix, and any team where the GM could be in hot water if they don't make the playoffs and need to reload their forward ranks with guys who can set up and bury the puck are teams that I could see having lukewarm interest. The teams I've listed don't all fit that description, just to be clear, but are just teams that I feel could look better with the twins.

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08-26-2013, 02:27 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsman View Post
Base of Sedins + Corrado for Grigorenko + TyMy
Actually that isn't bad at all. But I'm a big Myers fan. And like others, I'd like to keep Corrado. Weber mayhaps?

Well I wanted to see the Sedins with Vanek as a secondary scorer (or vice versa)...just not how I thought we'd get there.

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08-26-2013, 02:27 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
No thanks.
As a base I think it makes sense, how far off is it in your eyes? Would it take another piece as big as an Armia? Would Vanek seal the deal?

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08-26-2013, 02:57 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Both Ottawa and the Islanders aren't destinations I'd call, but it was fans of these teams that made the offers...so if there are some redundancies with their prospects or players, and either team thinks they have what it takes come the post season (and the usual "Canucks fail" on our end).


bad .
The Isles/Canuck proposal came from an Oiler fan. No idea why he is not proposing Nail+ for Sedin proposals, like Darth suggested.

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08-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsman View Post
As a base I think it makes sense, how far off is it in your eyes? Would it take another piece as big as an Armia? Would Vanek seal the deal?
Value wise it isn't bad, just not a fan of Myers.

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08-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
The Isles/Canuck proposal came from an Oiler fan. No idea why he is not proposing Nail+ for Sedin proposals, like Darth suggested.
Well, politely withdrawn then.

That will teach me to read this on my phone.

Thought it was odd that someone who would belong to the Islanders, who's rebuild was finally starting to bare fruit, would throw the best pieces our way.

Also, did I get one word taken out of context?

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08-26-2013, 03:06 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
As a base I think it makes sense, how far off is it in your eyes? Would it take another piece as big as an Armia? Would Vanek seal the deal?
I just read your name...Avs fan, correct? Or are you a Sabres fan as well?

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08-26-2013, 03:06 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Retaining salaries would work for us, if it meant not taking as much salary back (and 6.1 for both players means we take something back).



My comparison for what my expectations are for Iginla. Retaining salary would mean you get both, for less cap space, and I would expect something in the neighbourhood of double his value (1st, two ho hum prospects).

I'd also argue that their game isn't deteriorating at the same rate as Iginla in the last few years. That doesn't put them in Hossa or Kovalchuk rental packages in my eyes, but a blue chip prospect each, or a 1st, a prospect and a roster player each, or a younger player of slightly lower calibre each...I don't feel that is unreasonable for two probable point per game players.

St. Louis, Nashville, New York (Rangers), Ottawa (according to their fans), Detroit, Phoenix, and any team where the GM could be in hot water if they don't make the playoffs and need to reload their forward ranks with guys who can set up and bury the puck are teams that I could see having lukewarm interest. The teams I've listed don't all fit that description, just to be clear, but are just teams that I feel could look better with the twins.
Iginla is a fair comparison, IMO. But, even he did not return a "blue chip prospect.' Neither did Kovulchuk. I think maybe the Forsberg to Nashville deal might have been closest to that outcome.


But, for the most part, I find your take to be quite sensible.

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08-26-2013, 03:15 PM
  #112
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Trading the Sedins would be a tricky proposition.
They wouldn't in all likelihood be interested in going to a noncontender. So that leaves contenders and its hard to imagine a team considering itself a contender if they're missing 2/3 of a top line. Also any contender with a solid first line looking to build an excellent 2nd line is unlikely to have sufficient cap space to add the two of them.

They'll retire(from NHL at least) as Canucks.

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08-26-2013, 03:16 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Iginla is a fair comparison, IMO. But, even he did not return a "blue chip prospect.' Neither did Kovulchuk. I think maybe the Forsberg to Nashville deal might have been closest to that outcome.


But, for the most part, I find your take to be quite sensible.
Iginla is not a fair comparison. Iginla scored 67 points in last full season and in his 31 games in Calgary this year he scored at a 58 point pace. While the last full season Henrik Sedin led the Western Conference in scoring and in the half season he scored at a 77 point pace. The Sedins' have not declined nearly as much as Iginla has.

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08-26-2013, 03:20 PM
  #114
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They will retire and have their jerseys lifted into the rafters.

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08-26-2013, 03:35 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Iginla is a fair comparison, IMO. But, even he did not return a "blue chip prospect.' Neither did Kovulchuk. I think maybe the Forsberg to Nashville deal might have been closest to that outcome.


But, for the most part, I find your take to be quite sensible.
I believe that is the first time a fan of another team has said that about me.

Kovalchuk (+Salmela and a 2nd) returned a lot of smaller pieces, Oduya, Bergfors, Cormier and a 1st.

Dupuis and Hossa went for Armstrong, Christensen, a first, and Esposito, so ditto.

Small, yet promising pieces.

Because of the age difference, I hold no delusions about their value, but Iginla I feel is absolutely apt. The decline, or alleged decline, doesn't show yet for the Sedins, as it did with Iggy.

Forsberg might be a little lofty for a comparisons for one Sedin. He got Upshall, Parent and a 1st (traded back to Nashville for Hartnell and Timonen) and 3rd. Upshall still had a lot of untapped potential, Parent was a very highly thought of prospect, and two picks. If we could find a team that could double up that value...well sure, let's do it! Different player, different time, different team though. If we could get either offer (Upshall, Parent, 1st and a 3rd or Upshall, Parent, Hartnell, Timonen and a 3rd) as the comparison...that'd be awesome, even at retained salary.

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08-26-2013, 03:39 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
Iginla is not a fair comparison. Iginla scored 67 points in last full season and in his 31 games in Calgary this year he scored at a 58 point pace. While the last full season Henrik Sedin led the Western Conference in scoring and in the half season he scored at a 77 point pace. The Sedins' have not declined nearly as much as Iginla has.
He's quoting me, and I was saying a little boost on Iginla's value, doubled, so it's not a straight comparison, is a fair return, if they ask to move. More if we keep salary of course.

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08-26-2013, 03:42 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by leaflover View Post
Trading the Sedins would be a tricky proposition.
They wouldn't in all likelihood be interested in going to a noncontender. So that leaves contenders and its hard to imagine a team considering itself a contender if they're missing 2/3 of a top line. Also any contender with a solid first line looking to build an excellent 2nd line is unlikely to have sufficient cap space to add the two of them.

They'll retire(from NHL at least) as Canucks.
I'd love that situation (retiring here), but it's not just 2/3 of a front line, but 2/6 top six forwards missing. The Sedins are 100% first liners, but I can think of a few teams where 2nd line forwards are filling in as top line forwards as too, or that could have the depth to have two first lines with the additions of the Sedins.

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08-26-2013, 03:48 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I'd love that situation (retiring here), but it's not just 2/3 of a front line, but 2/6 top six forwards missing. The Sedins are 100% first liners, but I can think of a few teams where 2nd line forwards are filling in as top line forwards as too, or that could have the depth to have two first lines with the additions of the Sedins.
So can I, but when you factor being a contender and availability of cap space into the equation she becomes a mighty short list.

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08-26-2013, 03:49 PM
  #119
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That's fair enough. The Sedins' are the two best player in the package so it's understandable.
These are 2 superstar players.

I would expect to see a return fit for 2 superstar players. Not just 1.

Its like Philly trading Carter & Richards together and only getting one of the packages they did.

I would expect the value coming back to be worthy of 2 superstar players.

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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
I'll go ahead and drop Stewart, Schwartz and a 1st.
Gunna need to add. From our POV it would probably start with Tarasenko, or else something around Shattenkirk would be nice, not that I think the Blues would necessarily want to do it.

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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
Base of Sedins + Corrado for Grigorenko + TyMy
Why are we adding Corrado to this?

Even without Corrado I would decline, not the biggest fan of Grigorenko & Myers.

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08-26-2013, 03:53 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
Base of Sedins + Corrado for Grigorenko + TyMy
Haha pathetic. Do you watch hockey?

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08-26-2013, 03:57 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by leaflover View Post
So can I, but when you factor being a contender and availability of cap space into the equation she becomes a mighty short list.
Taking salary back, and/or keeping money off the contracts is my answer there. It's for one more year, and if this trade were to happen at the TDL, the 2 million or so have to spare increases by quite a bit for future trades.

There are ways of getting around the cap limitations, if the rest of the deal would be right.

I for one would like to see roster players returned as well, and without the Sedins, we will need to fill the salary void the Sedins would leave. 62 odd million, less the Sedins' 12 million, would leave us at 50 with only a few players that are so far intitled to raises, not to mention Booth likely getting less as well.

I had a list of potential teams I think could be a fit (salary considerations accounted for) as well as either a need, a desire or even just a fit in terms of the roster.

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08-26-2013, 04:05 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
As a base I think it makes sense, how far off is it in your eyes? Would it take another piece as big as an Armia? Would Vanek seal the deal?
I think the deal was fairish, maybe a pick from Buffalo it's just such a big deal

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08-26-2013, 04:09 PM
  #123
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I think the deal was fairish, maybe a pick from Buffalo it's just such a big deal
My thoughts exactly. Not quite there, but as far as the main pieces, it's not a half bad return. A potential number one D (offense, size, skill) and a top six prospect, likely maxing out at a number one center...that's nothing to scoff at.

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08-26-2013, 04:55 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
These are 2 superstar players.

I would expect to see a return fit for 2 superstar players. Not just 1.

Its like Philly trading Carter & Richards together and only getting one of the packages they did.g

I would expect the value coming back to be worthy of 2 superstar players.

di.
Carter and Richards were what 26 yrs old and 27 yrs old, when traded by Philly? The Sedins are about to turn 32.

Carter and Richards were tied up in long term contract. The Sedins are ufas in 2014.

Big differences.

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08-26-2013, 05:00 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Carter and Richards were what 26 yrs old and 27 yrs old, when traded by Philly? The Sedins are about to turn 32.

Carter and Richards were tied up in long term contract. The Sedins are ufas in 2014.

Big differences.
There are differences no doubt, but still, my overall point stands.

Lets look at it this way, look at what NYR got for Gaborik, times that by 2 (valuewise) as what the Sedins should return. Or add the returns of Nash & Gaborik.

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