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Best playoff player to never win the cup?

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Old
08-27-2013, 10:07 AM
  #26
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
And for him, that IS bad. Especially when considering that besides scoring, Dionne didn't bring much to the table (i.e. defensive game, physicality, intimidation etc.). He definitely had a couple of good serieses, but his playoff resume is simply very disappointing.
It is a bad resume in the playoffs but people also tend to forget that his support is also among the all time worst as well.

Perrault for instance had much better secondary scoring on his teams and arguably better line mates as well.

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08-27-2013, 10:14 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It is a bad resume in the playoffs but people also tend to forget that his support is also among the all time worst as well.

Perrault for instance had much better secondary scoring on his teams and arguably better line mates as well.
Yeah, with Dionne's teams he could be focused on and his teams just lost.

He was never in a position to do a lot with those teams imo.


I'll nominate Norm Ullman, Curtis Joseph, a bunch of Flyers in the 80s... Cam Neely maybe?

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08-27-2013, 10:42 AM
  #28
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Brad Park.

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08-27-2013, 10:50 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah, with Dionne's teams he could be focused on and his teams just lost. He was never in a position to do a lot with those teams imo. I'll nominate Norm Ullman, Curtis Joseph, a bunch of Flyers in the 80s... Cam Neely maybe?
Agreed. Also with adjusted for era playoff scoring I bet Dionne looks good next to Briere.

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08-27-2013, 11:51 AM
  #30
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Anyone put Joe Thornton on their list? I know he's been looked at as an underachiever in the playoffs, but I don't really think that. He has 97 points in 125 playoff games. The last couple of playoffs he's been fantastic also

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08-27-2013, 01:00 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
Good picks. I was going to say Gadsby....... twenty seasons in a six team league. That must have hurt.
Hurting is a team who only wins the cup 3 times in the O6 and before 2010.

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08-27-2013, 03:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
Harry Howell, Bill Gadsby, Roger Crozier in net.
I'd like to hear the case for Crozier, because I'm just not seeing it:

https://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/crozier.html

In his CS season, he was marginally above average (a 91.4% save percentage might win you a Cup, but not often - maybe in the 1980s). Other than that year, he was cumulatively below replacement level, driven primarily by a first-round stinker for the 1965 Wings (upset by Chicago).

Save percentage isn't everything (insert standard save percentage caveats here), so tell me beyond the numbers why Crozier's playoff performance is worthy of the "best to not win the Cup" title.

(On an unrelated note, I really can't understand the logic of 1 vs. 3 and 2 vs. 4 in the playoffs, like the NHL was doing back then)

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08-27-2013, 03:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It is a bad resume in the playoffs but people also tend to forget that his support is also among the all time worst as well.

Perrault for instance had much better secondary scoring on his teams and arguably better line mates as well.
But what explains the fact that while Dionne always blew his teammates away in scoring during the regular season, they often outscored him in the playoffs ?

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Originally Posted by RedWingsForPresident View Post
Anyone put Joe Thornton on their list? I know he's been looked at as an underachiever in the playoffs, but I don't really think that. He has 97 points in 125 playoff games. The last couple of playoffs he's been fantastic also
Not me. Half a career as a bad playoff performer followed by half a career as a decent to pretty good one. He's never really put his team in his back for a series like even someone like Briere can say.

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I found Briere numbers more than impressive, given all the circumstances. With all the respect to non-expansion league difficulty, it's not so easy to maintain PPG over 100 playoff games. Hell, it's not even easy to play in 100+ playoff games these times.
Briere's record is definitely impressive, but keep in mind he was an awful defensive player while racking up those points, and that he alway had another center on his team to take the tougher assignments. Ullman was a very good defensively player who usually went head to head against the best center of opponents.

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08-27-2013, 03:46 PM
  #34
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I'd like to hear the case for Crozier, because I'm just not seeing it:
Quite simply put, he was spectacular, stopping some seriously high quality shots & opportunities throughout the series. One of the best goaltending performances Ive ever seen, ranking right up there (for the era) with Sawchuks performance in 67 against Chicago in the semi's. Ya, little Roger Crozier there absolutely stood on his head. Combination Acrobat/Butterfly style, hybrid. Because he was small appeared all the more sensational. He had been Blackhawks property & played for the St.Catherines Teepees, following Glenn Halls lead in terms of style. Won a Memorial Cup in 60. Assigned to the Buffalo Bisons backing up Denis Dejordy then traded to Detroit at 22yrs of age. Suffered from pancreatitis in his 2nd year but recovered, then got injured in the following springs playoffs (cut) that limited his mobility. Suffered from ulcers as well. But yes, that first season, winning the Conn Smythe, first time ever a player on the losing side did so, very well deserved. Seriously. Right up there with Dryden in 71 etc. Amazing... and 1 vs 3 & 2 vs 4? I guess they thought that fairer huh? That anything can happen in hockey, a series. Starting with 1 vs 2 in a semi might be the real Finals right there so they broke them up. Was decidedly unbalanced & unfair when the 67/68 Expansion rolled around of course...


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08-27-2013, 04:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Briere's record is definitely impressive, but keep in mind he was an awful defensive player while racking up those points, and that he alway had another center on his team to take the tougher assignments. Ullman was a very good defensively player who usually went head to head against the best center of opponents.
That's a good point.

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08-27-2013, 07:58 PM
  #36
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Gotta be Joseph for goalies, if not overall.

There's some Cup-winning goalies who have never been as clutch as he was in 1993 or 1997 (or the underrated 1998 series vs Colorado when he outplayed St Patrick).

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08-27-2013, 08:32 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But what explains the fact that while Dionne always blew his teammates away in scoring during the regular season, they often outscored him in the playoffs ?
I'm not saying Dionne was great or anything in the playoffs but his size worked against him as did the fact that he never really played with very good PP QB guys either, for the most part.

I'm just not sure that if Gilbert and Dionne traded places that the results would have been very different.

Can't prove it, just a gut feeling.

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08-27-2013, 09:25 PM
  #38
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The two that came up were Brad Park and Brian Propp.

Linden, Bure, Stastny, Briere are there too...am I the only one who even mentioned Propp?

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08-27-2013, 11:28 PM
  #39
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Jean Ratelle and Rod Gilbert amongst forwards. Bill Gadsby amongst defensemen.
Can't imagine why. Gadsby wasn't anything special in the postseason at all. Neither was Gilbert and Ratelle made up for poor playoff performances eventually but he wasn't what I would call a "great" playoff performer. They all had HHOF careers, but if we are just isolating the playoffs, then there are far better.

Park was mentioned already. Mark Howe is another one, although definitely worse than Park.

Adam Oates hasn't been mentioned yet for forwards. The most playoff points by anyone who never won the Cup. He's got to get an honourable mention here.

To a lesser extent, Cam Neely.

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08-28-2013, 09:06 AM
  #40
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I haven't seen enough of his play to make my own argument, but I would nominate Mark Howe.

I'm also throwing Keith Primeau out there. He had a couple playoff runs that were fantastic. During his time in Philly, when he was on he was great. He had a tendency to score big goals as well.
Primeau is a better fit for a worst playoff performers of all-time list (or, worst relative to talent/regular season play). One good (but overrated) playoff in a career of no-shows.

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08-28-2013, 09:19 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Can't imagine why. Gadsby wasn't anything special in the postseason at all. Neither was Gilbert and Ratelle made up for poor playoff performances eventually but he wasn't what I would call a "great" playoff performer. They all had HHOF careers, but if we are just isolating the playoffs, then there are far better.

Park was mentioned already. Mark Howe is another one, although definitely worse than Park.

Adam Oates hasn't been mentioned yet for forwards. The most playoff points by anyone who never won the Cup. He's got to get an honourable mention here.

To a lesser extent, Cam Neely.


Gadsby is also on my list (along with Harry Howell on the blueline) and Roger Crozier in goal. I can add nothing of substance to Killion's post about Crozier, so I will speak to Gadsby's candidacy.

When the Red Wings acquired the 34 year old in 1961, Eddie Shore reportedly said "he will play 3-5 more years. He is virtually indestructible."

Statistics alone do not do the man justice, but here are some to consider. Indeed, as Shore predicted, he lasted 5 more full NHL seasons, and retired as a second-team allstar selection, one of just three players to last 20 years in the league (along with Clapper and Howe), the first (along with Howe) to play 1000 career games, and the all-time leader for games played, points, assists and penalty minutes for a defenseman. He was the first NHL defenseman to record 500 career points and his single-season record for assists by a defenseman stood until Bobby Orr hit his stride in 69-70.

But more than this, Gadsby was highly respected by his peers as an on-ice warrior and a leader, and a level-headed, calm man off the ice. He played for some truly dreadful Hawks teams (out of the playoffs for 9 of Gadsby's 10 seasons with the club), but after joining the NYR recorded 10 playoff points in 16 games over 3 appearances -- stellar numbers for a 1950s d-man.

Gadsby's only legitimate Stanley Cup opportunities were with the Wings in the early/mid 1960s, and in his final game he got to see teammate Roger Crozier (the goaltender on my list) earn the Conn Smythe in a losing cause.

Two decades of NHL play at a consistently high level. Arguably the finest career for any defenseman at the point of his retirement. No cups. The man is on my list.

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08-28-2013, 11:56 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
Gadsby is also on my list (along with Harry Howell on the blueline) and Roger Crozier in goal. I can add nothing of substance to Killion's post about Crozier, so I will speak to Gadsby's... Two decades of NHL play at a consistently high level. Arguably the finest career for any defenseman at the point of his retirement. No cups. The man is on my list.
Ya, well said, and Gadsby would be on my list as well. Others as well who never won a Stanley Cup, Brad Park, Perrault, Salming etc. Very gutsy Defenceman, calming influence back there, knew the angles... as a sort of sidebar, at the age of 12 he & his Mother were returning from England at the outbreak of WW2 aboard the Athenia, torpedoed by a German U-Boat, the first British passenger liner to be targeted & sunk. Spent 5hrs adrift in the Atlantic.

Oh, and welcome to hf.

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08-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
Gadsby is also on my list (along with Harry Howell on the blueline) and Roger Crozier in goal. I can add nothing of substance to Killion's post about Crozier, so I will speak to Gadsby's candidacy.

When the Red Wings acquired the 34 year old in 1961, Eddie Shore reportedly said "he will play 3-5 more years. He is virtually indestructible."

Statistics alone do not do the man justice, but here are some to consider. Indeed, as Shore predicted, he lasted 5 more full NHL seasons, and retired as a second-team allstar selection, one of just three players to last 20 years in the league (along with Clapper and Howe), the first (along with Howe) to play 1000 career games, and the all-time leader for games played, points, assists and penalty minutes for a defenseman. He was the first NHL defenseman to record 500 career points and his single-season record for assists by a defenseman stood until Bobby Orr hit his stride in 69-70.

But more than this, Gadsby was highly respected by his peers as an on-ice warrior and a leader, and a level-headed, calm man off the ice. He played for some truly dreadful Hawks teams (out of the playoffs for 9 of Gadsby's 10 seasons with the club), but after joining the NYR recorded 10 playoff points in 16 games over 3 appearances -- stellar numbers for a 1950s d-man.

Gadsby's only legitimate Stanley Cup opportunities were with the Wings in the early/mid 1960s, and in his final game he got to see teammate Roger Crozier (the goaltender on my list) earn the Conn Smythe in a losing cause.

Two decades of NHL play at a consistently high level. Arguably the finest career for any defenseman at the point of his retirement. No cups. The man is on my list.
The only thing, is that the OP said "Best playoff player to never win the Cup". Unfortunately Gadsby didn't play a lot in the postseason so its hard to rate him here. Reminds me of Andy Bathgate, his longtime teammate. No doubt these two men are HHOFers but neither has a terribly great playoff portfolio. So if we are just going to isolate that then I think we can do better than Gadsby who had a run of bad luck with the teams he played for.

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08-28-2013, 03:49 PM
  #44
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Gilbert Perreault was consistently good in the playoffs

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08-28-2013, 08:17 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah, with Dionne's teams he could be focused on and his teams just lost.

He was never in a position to do a lot with those teams imo.


I'll nominate Norm Ullman, Curtis Joseph, a bunch of Flyers in the 80s... Cam Neely maybe?
That's the thing now isn't it. In the regular season, teams keyed in on and focused on Dionne but he managed then.

I do not fault him for not winning a cup with those teams. Nobody could have done that. However, his personal performance

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08-28-2013, 09:21 PM
  #46
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Playoffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'd like to hear the case for Crozier, because I'm just not seeing it:

https://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/crozier.html

In his CS season, he was marginally above average (a 91.4% save percentage might win you a Cup, but not often - maybe in the 1980s). Other than that year, he was cumulatively below replacement level, driven primarily by a first-round stinker for the 1965 Wings (upset by Chicago).

Save percentage isn't everything (insert standard save percentage caveats here), so tell me beyond the numbers why Crozier's playoff performance is worthy of the "best to not win the Cup" title.

(On an unrelated note, I really can't understand the logic of 1 vs. 3 and 2 vs. 4 in the playoffs, like the NHL was doing back then)
Pre O6, six teams would make the playoffs:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1942.html

Gate driven league you could max out at 23(5 series 7/3/3/3/7) playoff games even though there were certain inequalities like the top two teams meeting in the first round to determine one of the two finalists. O6 era the max became 21 games(3 series of 7) regardless of the top 4 match-ups.

1 & 3 / 2 &4 were more competitive, likely to generate extra games and revenues.

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08-28-2013, 11:25 PM
  #47
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That's the thing now isn't it. In the regular season, teams keyed in on and focused on Dionne but he managed then.

I do not fault him for not winning a cup with those teams. Nobody could have done that. However, his personal performance
In the regular season he wasn't matched up against the top seeds every time he stepped on to the ice either.

75-76 85 point Kings team loses to the 113 point Bruins.

76-77 85 point Kings team loses to the 106 point Bruins

77-78 77 point Kings team loses to 92 point Toronto.

78-79 80 point Kings team loses to 91 point Rangers.

79-80 74 point Kings team loses to 91 point Islanders.

80-81 99 point Kings team loses to 74 point Rangers. The Kings allow 23 goals in the 4 game sweep. I guess Dionne could have tried playing defense or goal...

81-82 63 point Kings team loses to 77 point Canucks team after knocking off a 111 point Oilers team. Has any other team with a 48 point regular season gap ever won a series? This has to be a record. That is ridiculous.

84-85 82 point Kings team loses to 109 point Oilers dynasty.

86-87 76 point Kings team loses to 100 point Flyers finalist.


So.. outside of 80-81, where their defense gave up 23 goals in 4 games (they were 20th out of 21 in goals against in the regular season as well).. Dionne's teams were the underdog in every series he lost.

And that is with his regular season play getting them the points they did have in their seeding.

His teams were bad in the regular season.

After dropping the even worse teams for the playoffs, the Kings were by and large showing up to a gun fight with a knife. Teams could just focus on him and they were done.


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08-29-2013, 03:27 PM
  #48
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Kings arguably had the worst goaltending in the league: between Vachon & Hrudey, an endless revolving door sh*tshow cavalcade of human sieves: Lessard, Janecyk, Blake, Laskoski, etc. Hapless, bumbling defense until L. Murphy shows. No forward depth after first line following Goring trade/M. Murphy retirement pre-Nicholls ascendency. Taylor & Simmer both out with injuries for extended stretches. Unstable coaching. Bad drafting. Plus the most geographically disadvantaged franchise: travel must've taken its toll on Kings players more than any other during the period Dionne was with the Kings.

Dionne was in a weaker situation than most elite players ever found themselves in. I'm not sure how much more he could've done in that situation. I thought he was always a class act who gave 100%. Can't ask much more from a guy when most everyone around him is mediocre.

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08-29-2013, 04:04 PM
  #49
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Primeau is a better fit for a worst playoff performers of all-time list (or, worst relative to talent/regular season play). One good (but overrated) playoff in a career of no-shows.
While I agree that Primeau doesn't belong near this thread and that for much of his career he was a disappointment in the playoffs, he was freaking amazing in 04.

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08-29-2013, 04:10 PM
  #50
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Norm Ullman
Brad Park
Roger Crozier
Daniel Alfredsson
Paul Reinhart
Warren Godfrey

Outsider: Bernie Nicholls and Mike Liut

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