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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Jere Lehtinen vs Derek Sanderson

View Poll Results: Choose a player:
Jere Kalervo Lehtinen 57 82.61%
Derek Sanderson 12 17.39%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2009, 09:55 PM
  #76
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
My viewpoint is based on the fact that I have accepted that I am not more influential than genetics.

Stupid is forever. You can help a kid become a little less stupid, but he's still stupid.



It could also be argued that Hitler wasn't really that bad of a guy...

Some things can change with maturity, but that usually happens in early puberty (age 12-14). Even so, it's not a skill.



I haven't changed my position at all. Soft is forever. Just like stupid kids, you can make a soft kid a little less soft, but not much.



Soft boys in warrior cultures didn't become tough - they died.
And this is why I can't take you seriously.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:04 PM
  #77
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And this is why I can't take you seriously.
Everything in there is true.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:06 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Everything in there is true.
I am waiting for you to add "People of certain racial backgrounds are predisposed to X and cannot change"

Because they are born that way right?


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-23-2009 at 10:15 PM.
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Old
12-23-2009, 10:37 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
I am waiting for you to add "People of certain racial backgrounds are predisposed to X and cannot change"

Because they are born that way right?
Why are you waiting for that?

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Old
12-24-2009, 10:28 AM
  #80
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Why are you waiting for that?
Because our argument revolves around Nature vs Nurture. Both important, but Nurture plays a much larger role in Hockey than you want to admit. By your viewpoint, their skills have already been nurtured to the point that they are nearly clones, and their nature is the deciding factor after that, and I find that viewpoint silly and incoherent.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-24-2009 at 11:09 AM.
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Old
12-24-2009, 02:56 PM
  #81
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Because our argument revolves around Nature vs Nurture. Both important, but Nurture plays a much larger role in Hockey than you want to admit. By your viewpoint, their skills have already been nurtured to the point that they are nearly clones, and their nature is the deciding factor after that, and I find that viewpoint silly and incoherent.
So you believe there are innate differences between the races?

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Old
12-24-2009, 04:01 PM
  #82
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So you believe there are innate differences between the races?
No, but there are genetics involved in different races, and you seem to think people are limited to their genetics

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Old
12-24-2009, 06:39 PM
  #83
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Board Darwinism

Prime example of board Darwinism - hi-lighting the difference between evolution and mutation.

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Old
12-24-2009, 06:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
No, but there are genetics involved in different races, and you seem to think people are limited to their genetics
People are limited by their genetics, but why do you think different races have higher and lower limitations?

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Old
12-24-2009, 07:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
People are limited by their genetics, but why do you think different races have higher and lower limitations?
We don't. That definition falls into the camp of people who think genetics are the end all of abilities and that you cannot become better athletes than you started.(I am not saying you are one of these people, but these are the sorts of things that lead into these unwanted topics)

The same sort of people who theorize that the smart slaves were killed while the stronger, but less intelligent slaves were kept alive and that it has passed down generations as a result(Which I strongly disagree with).

I am of the camp that Nurture matters more than Nature.

Hockey players, properly nurtured, can achieve the same levels of those who came across things easier by nature. I am not naive enough to think that we are limited strictly to our genetic code. We can make ourselves better.

I have seen wimpy soft men who whimpered when they were hit by other men, unable to take the punishment and turtle join the military and come back able to take take vast amounts of physical punishment without even blinking. This is how I know toughness can be thrust into someone.

People who went to become athletes work on Perception and Decision Training and improve dramatically between the times I saw them. Hell, they even have books on the subject.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-24-2009 at 07:43 PM.
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Old
12-24-2009, 09:59 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
We don't. That definition falls into the camp of people who think genetics are the end all of abilities and that you cannot become better athletes than you started.(I am not saying you are one of these people, but these are the sorts of things that lead into these unwanted topics)

The same sort of people who theorize that the smart slaves were killed while the stronger, but less intelligent slaves were kept alive and that it has passed down generations as a result(Which I strongly disagree with).

I am of the camp that Nurture matters more than Nature.

Hockey players, properly nurtured, can achieve the same levels of those who came across things easier by nature. I am not naive enough to think that we are limited strictly to our genetic code. We can make ourselves better.

I have seen wimpy soft men who whimpered when they were hit by other men, unable to take the punishment and turtle join the military and come back able to take take vast amounts of physical punishment without even blinking. This is how I know toughness can be thrust into someone.

People who went to become athletes work on Perception and Decision Training and improve dramatically between the times I saw them. Hell, they even have books on the subject.
Do you really believe anybody can become an professional athlete, world leader, or scientific researcher?

I believe Nature sets your limitations, and Nurture influences how close or far you get to your limitations.

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Old
12-24-2009, 10:02 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Do you really believe anybody can become an professional athlete, world leader, or scientific researcher?

I believe Nature sets your limitations, and Nurture influences how close or far you get to your limitations.
And I believe Nurture supersedes nature.

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Old
12-24-2009, 10:12 PM
  #88
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And I believe Nurture supersedes nature.
Then that's where we disagree.

Rocky Dennis could never be a model....

Gary Coleman could never be a basketball player....

Jay Leno could never be funny....

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Old
12-24-2009, 10:22 PM
  #89
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Then that's where we disagree.

Rocky Dennis could never be a model....
We are talking about normal people who did not suffer from rare diseases.

Looking good has zero to do with sports and everything to do with humans being superficial.

The fact that you are trying to pick out aberrations who suffered from terrible diseases to falsely prove your point is low even for you.

You know very well that I was speaking generally, and decided to take absolutely irrelevant silly examples as a last ditch effort.

The rough equivalent of this argument going the other way would be for me to take a gifted Pro football athlete in his prime years who has never played Hockey or skated and pit him against a seasoned, but physically inferior past his prime Hockey player.

Go watch pros vs Joes for this example.

For the record, the debate of Nature vs Nurture is age old, and "Nature" has never been able to prove its case as being more important than nurture.

Quote:
Gary Coleman could never be a basketball player....
So to try to falsely prove your point, you take a guy who suffered from a rare disease in childhood that stunted his growth?

Extreme, rare, aberrations? This is not in the realm of our discussion at all.

We are talking about healthy human beings. Not people who were unlucky suffered from terrible diseases.
Quote:
Jay Leno could never be funny....
On that, we agree.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-24-2009 at 10:34 PM.
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Old
12-24-2009, 10:39 PM
  #90
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They were extreme examples, but they still prove the point. Everyone is limited by their genetics. They can work hard to achieve their genetically predetermined potential, but nothing more.

There's no point going into this further. You have your beliefs, and I have mine.... and neither of us is going to change our minds.

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Old
12-25-2009, 10:52 AM
  #91
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It could also be argued that Hitler wasn't really that bad of a guy...
I invoke Goodwin's law. You have lost the argument.

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Old
12-25-2009, 03:10 PM
  #92
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I invoke Goodwin's law. You have lost the argument.
I'm pretty sure you mean Godwin, but maybe not... since Godwin's Law suggests that one of us would compare the other to Hitler. No comparison was made.

Also, I got an 83 on a research paper I submitted about that very topic

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Old
12-27-2009, 11:05 PM
  #93
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Bad passing is just about the worst defensive mistake a player can make.
technically that isn't a defensive play though. That's a poor offensive move. Turnovers are not a reflection of a players defensive ability.

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Old
12-28-2009, 01:55 AM
  #94
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technically that isn't a defensive play though. That's a poor offensive move. Turnovers are not a reflection of a players defensive ability.
No, A defenseman who retrieves a dump in facing forecheckers has a split second to play the puck somewhere before getting crunched on the boards. If he chooses to just cough it up the boards and move to avoid getting hit(Recent example: Brian Campbell), he risks sending it right to the opposing team.

A defenseman who sends it to the correct place(Which is difficult, and a skill) to further its movement out of their zone(Outlet/Breakout pass), catches the forecheckers in the zone while your teammates are now rushing up ice offensively. It is one of the most important times in Hockey, and is certainly a defensive play.

There are no if's, and's or buts about it. It is one of the most important defensive plays in Hockey.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-28-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old
12-28-2009, 03:31 AM
  #95
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technically that isn't a defensive play though. That's a poor offensive move. Turnovers are not a reflection of a players defensive ability.
If it effects goals against, it's part of a players defensive ability.

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03-07-2010, 02:48 PM
  #96
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Lehtinen.

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Old
08-27-2013, 10:52 AM
  #97
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I'm a bit disappointed with this thread. It didn't say a lot about Lehtinen or Sanderson. Who's a similar player to Sanderson for example? Going 90s and forward

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08-27-2013, 05:28 PM
  #98
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Holy shining shaved and glorious *****! You guys really went out for each other.

BTW, Dark, you were right.

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Old
08-27-2013, 05:38 PM
  #99
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I think it's great if the most effective forward in the game gets the Selke. Perhaps this is the key actually from which many aforemost Detroit fans keeps claiming that Datsyuk is better than Crosby and Ovechkin.

Jere Lehtinen for me here, certainly not a player that is up for "Best in the game" though.

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Old
08-27-2013, 06:39 PM
  #100
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sanderson could do everything lehtinen could, and he played a more demanding position. Also, Sanderson ALWAYS answered the bell when it came time to stick up for himself, and more so, his teammates. Not saying lehtinen had no pulse but sanderson was part of the Bruin crew that would LOOSE IT if opponents even hinted about trying to use intimidation.

derek sanderson brought more to the table than lehtinen. If i'm going into a season of NHL hockey there's no way I grab lehtinen if sanderson is available.

i'm a big lehtinen fan but you simply don't take him over a character like sanderson.

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