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Murray-Parros-Brière vs Ryder-Halpern-Weber

View Poll Results: Would you prefer to have:
Ryder-Halpern-Weber 21 11.17%
Murray-Parros-Brière 167 88.83%
Voters: 188. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-28-2013, 12:04 AM
  #51
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
That's a tough argument to make if you watched Weber play the last two years... And when you add that we have many versions of Weber (including the better but very similar Diaz), I don't understand how you can say that he is more useful to the team than Murray.
They might both be fairly ineffective at 5-on-5, but Weber has more upside and at least he can bomb it on the PP. By the numbers, Murray isn't even an average PKer.

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08-28-2013, 12:21 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They might both be fairly ineffective at 5-on-5, but Weber has more upside and at least he can bomb it on the PP. By the numbers, Murray isn't even an average PKer.
So Weber's shot velocity somehow factors into your scheme of advanced microstats more strongly than Murray's play on the PK?

By the numbers, even last year (supposedly his worst) two teams (full of better talent evaluators than yourself) used him on the penalty kill so much on a per game basis that he ranked 35th in the entire league in that regard. So you're right, he's not an average PKer... he's above average.

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08-28-2013, 12:22 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I really don't get this mentality that it's okay to have players who suck so long as they "fill a need". The team had no particular need of bad hockey players.
Never played hockey, I guess ? And just to be sure, Weber was redundant (and not very good anyway, one-trick pony) with our actual defense group, while Murray adds something we lack, especially with Emelin gone for a while (funny to think the team went down when Emelin got injured eh ?).

What's so hard to understand ?

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08-28-2013, 01:12 AM
  #54
HarlemsFinest
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Is this asking which I would prefer as an actual line, or as 1 for 1 comparisons plugged around on proper line combos?

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08-28-2013, 01:40 AM
  #55
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Ryder vs Briere is not a wash. That is the single biggest upgrade we made. Briere shows up when it matters and that's an incredibly important skill, don't forget how far a mediocre philly team made it.

Parros vs Halpern isn't a fair comparison as we wouldn't sign Halpern to play 5-10 minutes for 25 games. Weber would have never played on our team while Murray will get minutes.

Our team changed and as it did our needs changed. Plugging in old players doesn't work.

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08-28-2013, 05:45 AM
  #56
jaffy27
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Originally Posted by sXe View Post
Halpern over Parros
But on this team, I'd rather have Parros, we need a new dimension

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08-28-2013, 05:49 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They might both be fairly ineffective at 5-on-5, but Weber has more upside and at least he can bomb it on the PP. By the numbers, Murray isn't even an average PKer.
If Weber had so much upside, he'd b a full time NHLer like Murray, he's not even ahead of Pateryn for crying out loud!

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08-28-2013, 06:44 AM
  #58
Lshap
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Parros doesn't replace any of the players mentioned here. He won't be playing regular 4th line minutes; he represents an entirely new piece whose role is very limited. With his addition, we sacrifice depth but add a little insurance.

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08-28-2013, 07:45 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I really don't get this mentality that it's okay to have players who suck so long as they "fill a need". The team had no particular need of bad hockey players.

Yeah, let's just forget that hockey is a contact sport where intimidation is a factor.

Murray is a much better hockey player than Weber.

Parros fills the need for an enforcer, he's not replacing anyone.

White is ready to take the regular 4rth line center spot.

Brière had an off year due to concussions, he is the biggest ? but I'm pretty sure he'll do fine if healthy. This isn't the ideal signing, but he's an upgrade on Ryder, he's a much more complete offensive player, and can play wing or center, much more versatile. Ryder can't pass, can't deke, can't play center. Oh yeah, he's 2 inches taller though.

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08-28-2013, 08:33 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Not particularly. I said he's more useful than Murray.

I think people underestimate the guy's decline. He's a defensive defenseman who can no longer defend effectively. That makes for a pretty limited player.

He'll hit and block shots, and that will make people happy I'm sure, but that's not defense in and of itself.
Yes, a guy who doesn't play at all is more valuable than the guy who does. Get your head out of the spreadsheets and try to keep up, your arguments are foolish.

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08-28-2013, 08:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
Yeah, let's just forget that hockey is a contact sport where intimidation is a factor.

Murray is a much better hockey player than Weber.

Parros fills the need for an enforcer, he's not replacing anyone.

White is ready to take the regular 4rth line center spot.

Brière had an off year due to concussions, he is the biggest ? but I'm pretty sure he'll do fine if healthy. This isn't the ideal signing, but he's an upgrade on Ryder, he's a much more complete offensive player, and can play wing or center, much more versatile. Ryder can't pass, can't deke, can't play center. Oh yeah, he's 2 inches taller though.
Nope, ryder will probably double his production.

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08-28-2013, 10:05 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Nope, ryder will probably double his production.
So, tell me what Ryder can do well other than shooting, tipping pucks (wich Brière is also excellent for) and collecting garbage goals ?

Is he fast ? Nope.

Can he pass ? Nope.

Can he deke ? Nope.

Can he control the puck at all ? Not really.

Can he hit ? A little bit more than Brière.

Can he play center and wing ? Nope, can only play wing, needs a good playmaker, while Brière can develop plays on his own.

Is he a PPG in playoffs ? Nope, never has been, never will be.


Brière is so underrated, he only had a tough concussion and a bad season, and now people on this site would even prefer having Cole instead of him (LAWL). Brière is much more talented, and will greatly help the PP. He's much more versatile, can pass, shoot, deke, antagonize (he agitates much more than Ryder, Habs now have muscles to back this up). I really have no idea how such a player isn't welcomed to the Habs by them Engrish fanbase. The Francos obviously have no problem. My guess there lies the problem, but I know you guys will never admit it. It will be size, last year's stats (short season, hot streaking Ryder, whoopdidoo he's now a much better player, but oh wait a min, he went in the playoffs on a cold streak, but let's forget that).

Smurf sized local guy VS 2 inch taller Newfie guy ? The 2 inches makes all the difference. That's what she said.


Last edited by PKtrollban: 08-28-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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Old
08-28-2013, 10:07 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They might both be fairly ineffective at 5-on-5, but Weber has more upside and at least he can bomb it on the PP. By the numbers, Murray isn't even an average PKer.
You kinda get tired of hearing this after 5 years.

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08-28-2013, 10:08 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
So, tell me what Ryder can do well other than shooting, tipping pucks (wich Brière is also excellent for) and collecting garbage goals ?

Is he fast ? Nope.

Can he pass ? Nope.

Can he deke ? Nope.

Can he control the puck at all ? Not really.

Can he hit ? A little bit more than Brière.

Can he play center and wing ? Nope, can only play wing, needs a good playmaker, while Brière can develop plays on his own.

Is he a PPG in playoffs ? Nope, never has been, never will be.


Brière is so underrated, he only had a tough concussion and a bad season, and now people on this site would even prefer having Cole instead of him (LAWL). Brière is much more talented, and will greatly help the PP. He's much more versatile, can pass, shoot, deke, antagonize (he agitates much more than Ryder, Habs now have muscles to back this up). I really have no idea how such a player isn't welcomed to the Habs by then Engrish fanbase. The Francos obviously have no problem. My guess there lies the problem, but I know you guys will never admit it. It will be size, last year's stats (short season, hot streaking Ryder, whoopdidoo he's now a much better player, but oh wait a min, he went in the playoffs on a cold streak, but let's forget that).
Briere is 35. He won't get better.

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08-28-2013, 10:20 AM
  #65
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGV View Post
Briere is 35. He won't get better.
And hasn't necessarily even proven that he's better on the wing than Ryder would be at centre, for that matter (among the many issues with that post)...

But obviously this is all about English Canada hating on Briere because he's French, lol. Good one Smurfs dude. Any group who "obviously has no problems" with Briere is obviously the biased group. Most people against the addition of Briere are acknowledging his strengths, but outlining in detail why they think it doesn't outweigh the "bad" that comes with him. Most who are supporting th addition of Briere seem more than willing to completely ignore/dismiss the negatives that come with him that are of the most concern, however. Weird.

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08-28-2013, 10:40 AM
  #66
PKtrollban
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And hasn't necessarily even proven that he's better on the wing than Ryder would be at centre, for that matter (among the many issues with that post)...

But obviously this is all about English Canada hating on Briere because he's French, lol. Good one Smurfs dude. Any group who "obviously has no problems" with Briere is obviously the biased group. Most people against the addition of Briere are acknowledging his strengths, but outlining in detail why they think it doesn't outweigh the "bad" that comes with him. Most who are supporting th addition of Briere seem more than willing to completely ignore/dismiss the negatives that come with him that are of the most concern, however. Weird.
For the sake of discussing, what 'bad' does he bring with him ? Injury prone perhaps ? Cap hit ? Decline ? I can all agree with that.

But I can also tell you that he dosen't disapear in POs, he thrives in it.

I can also tell you that he can be a playmaker as much as a sniper, something Ryder can't.

Tell me what Ryder can bring that Brière can't.

Hit ?

Fight ?

Deke ?

Pass ?

Shoot ?

Puck control ?

Nothing ?

So easy for me to see how much better Brière is, how much more complete. Wait 'till he dekes a defender and roofs it, you'll soon forget how bad 'toedrag' Ryder is when he's not getting goals handled on a silver plate by a good playmaker, and how useless Ryder is as a role player. If he's not getting shooting oportunities, he's useless, he has basically no skills whatsoever other than shooting, buthe's quite good at it, gotta give him that. But Brière is also very good at sniping. I remember when he played for Buffalo he was at the point on the PP, could pass as much as one-time it, very threatening. Sure, he's getting older, but if he can stay healthy he'll have a much better season than Ryder, book it.

I could definitely see Brière taking Bouillon' spot on the PP this year.


Last edited by PKtrollban: 08-28-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old
08-28-2013, 10:45 AM
  #67
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Hockey is not an individual sport.

Team dynamics always trumps individual players.

Even more so when we are discussing non-elite impact players.

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08-28-2013, 10:53 AM
  #68
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
Tell me what Ryder can bring that Brière can't.

Hit ?

Fight ?

Deke ?

Pass ?

Shoot ?

Puck control ?

Nothing ?

Production. Durability. Ability to be effective in a bottom 6 if his level of play doesn't earn top 6 ice time. Willingness to be moved if the team feels they need to make a change. Cap savings. Etc.

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08-28-2013, 10:57 AM
  #69
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We know what Ryder brings to the table. Hes a steady 20 to 25 goals, extremely streaky and you cant never count on him when it matters. The last part is the main reason why this is his 5th team in his 11th season. We needed Ryder vs The Sens and he was nowhere to be found.

As for Briere, he can put up similar numbers, looks like he`s more of a team guy and just look at his playoff numbers. He is there when it matters and he`s also more versatile.

I just cant see why some think we have regressed. Maybe because some thought that Ryder was safe compared to Briere but I say that lets give him a chance to prove himself...camp starts in 2 weeks.

As for Weber...please. He had 3 season to prove himself and he failed. He is a decent 5th or 6th and is a Bergeron type of defenseman. I would rather give the spot to Murray. Not the same type of player but fills a need and im sure Price will be psyched to have Crankshaft clearing his crease

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08-28-2013, 10:58 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Production. Durability. Ability to be effective in a bottom 6 if his level of play doesn't earn top 6 ice time. Willingness to be moved if the team feels they need to make a change. Cap savings. Etc.
He also spears people in the balls.


and a friendly reminder: bringing up language stuff in a hockey debate has no place here. Not up for debate.

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08-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #71
Ohashi_Jouzu
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im sure Price will be psyched to have Crankshaft clearing his crease
With all the focus on pairings and potential prospect graduation, I think it has been lost on people that MB is trying to give Price the best environment to feel comfortable in, too.

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08-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #72
Hullois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Production. Durability. Ability to be effective in a bottom 6 if his level of play doesn't earn top 6 ice time. Willingness to be moved if the team feels they need to make a change. Cap savings. Etc.
I like Ryder but that is not true at all, in fact that's probably his biggest weakness, he's completely useless outside of a top 6 scoring role with a playmaking centre. He can't create his own space, and he certainly can't play defense.

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08-28-2013, 11:05 AM
  #73
HiggsBozon
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
He also spears people in the balls.


and a friendly reminder: bringing up language stuff in a hockey debate has no place here. Not up for debate.
It's ironic that people here are more frustrated with this fact than Eller himself probably is right now. Are you his girlfriend? Or maybe you think it's a first-time occurence in this league?

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08-28-2013, 11:08 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
It's ironic that people here are more frustrated with this fact than Eller himself probably is right now. Are you his girlfriend? Or maybe you think it's a first-time occurence in this league?
I think the funniest part of writing it is that you still don't get that it's a joke. Not my fault that you get so buttrumpled anytime someone talks about briere.

Are you HIS girlfriend!?


Honestly, it's like having an argument in 4th grade.


And I'll have you know that if the gods were so kind as for me to be Eller's girlfriend, I'd totally make him beat your boyfriend up and steal his One Direction tickets.

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08-28-2013, 11:10 AM
  #75
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
I like Ryder but that is not true at all, in fact that's probably his biggest weakness, he's completely useless outside of a top 6 scoring role with a playmaking centre. He can't create his own space, and he certainly can't play defense.
Over his three year stretch in Boston, during which the Bruins finished 1st in the division twice and won a Cup, was Ryder not used for the most part on the type of scoring "3rd line" that it looks like we're assembling here? I believe he also had 35 points in just under 50 playoff games over that stretch...

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