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Old
08-28-2013, 08:58 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
You could take Meszaros off our hands and give us a 1st, lets be real, Voracek has more value than Elder currently.

But, I can not see why either team would trade those two players.
I just can't comprehend how Voracek has more value than Edler, maybe someone could piece together an argument based on facts to explain it to me.

Voracek has only put up close to PPG numbers for half of a season, that isn't enough for me to correlate his value with a legit PPG player. I would need to see him carry that pace over a full season before I'd value him as such. I realize Flyer's fans say he has shown glimpses of becoming a potential franchise player, but hey, so has Edler. Defensemen peak in their late 20's quite often, it isn't as if Edler is done developing yet either.

Edler is a lock for between 40 and 50 points, his defensive game is underrated due to occasional brain farts, and he plays a physical brand of hockey. Having a new coach ride him hard could be what he needs to take the next step. He has a sweet heart contract too, and his lasts longer than Voracek's.

Even if you assume Voracek is a PPG player, and you assume Edler is a fringe #1 defensemen, who has more value? Both are just entering their prime years; Voracek is 2 years younger but as I said, forwards peak earlier and fizzle earlier than defensemen. If you assume that, who has more value? Personally, I'd say the defenseman has more value than the winger, just as a center would. So please, if you have something to add to this, feel free. I don't see why Voracek is thought to have more value, unless it's fans overvaluing their own players.

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08-28-2013, 09:03 AM
  #77
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I think so.

Espeically if we get Vanek now...I believe that would increase our chance of having a very late 1st and our chance to re-sign him.

With the salary cap going up next year and the Sedins seemingly ready and willing to re-sign right now for what is likely under market, there is no reason why we couldn't make a good pitch for Vanek.
I'm not sure where Vanek's head is at right now, if he is more concerned with winning or a payday, or both. If he puts up numbers like he did last season he could receive a 7 year contract worth 8.5mil per year. Even if we traded for him, and he loved playing here, how much do you think he'd leave on the table? I'd say at most, a million per season. So, can we afford a 7.5mil top 6 forward going forward? I think it'd likely deplete our depth by too much.

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08-28-2013, 09:58 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Ok...

The Flyers have a ton of 3-6 position defenseman. Coburn(LH), Meszaros(RH), Grossmann(LH), Streit(LH), Gustafsson(LH), Schenn(RH), and Bourdon(RH). Our only true top pairing defenseman is Kimmo Timonen. The Flyers need a true #1 defenseman, kind of like a Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo or a Ryan Suter. Elder is nice but, he is not quite the player the Flyers need. The Flyers have some solid defensive prospects in their system namely, Samuel Morin, Robert Hagg, and Shayne Gostitsbehere, and maybe one of those guys will turn out to be a great #1 defenseman but, that will take a couple years.
...

...

Edler pretty much fits exactly what you need. He's a #1 Dman with the potential to enter Norris discussions. Now, it makes no sense for you to be moving a young guy of Voraceks quality for literally anyone who isn't a proven young star but Edler is what your D corps needs.

Similarly Voracek would be ideal to pair with Kesler but the Canucks cannot afford to pay the premium price he would cost. These teams don't have top of the line expendable assets.

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Old
08-28-2013, 10:03 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I just can't comprehend how Voracek has more value than Edler, maybe someone could piece together an argument based on facts to explain it to me.

Voracek has only put up close to PPG numbers for half of a season, that isn't enough for me to correlate his value with a legit PPG player. I would need to see him carry that pace over a full season before I'd value him as such. I realize Flyer's fans say he has shown glimpses of becoming a potential franchise player, but hey, so has Edler. Defensemen peak in their late 20's quite often, it isn't as if Edler is done developing yet either.

Edler is a lock for between 40 and 50 points, his defensive game is underrated due to occasional brain farts, and he plays a physical brand of hockey. Having a new coach ride him hard could be what he needs to take the next step. He has a sweet heart contract too, and his lasts longer than Voracek's.

Even if you assume Voracek is a PPG player, and you assume Edler is a fringe #1 defensemen, who has more value? Both are just entering their prime years; Voracek is 2 years younger but as I said, forwards peak earlier and fizzle earlier than defensemen. If you assume that, who has more value? Personally, I'd say the defenseman has more value than the winger, just as a center would. So please, if you have something to add to this, feel free. I don't see why Voracek is thought to have more value, unless it's fans overvaluing their own players.
Well this is Voracek first year as 1st line winger and every Flyers fan knows that it wasn't a fluke, and after signing Streit ,drafting Hagg and knowing that Timonen will stay for more than 1 year it's not about a PMD anymore

Voracek will always hold more Value because we do not want to trade him

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Old
08-28-2013, 10:27 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
Well this is Voracek first year as 1st line winger and every Flyers fan knows that it wasn't a fluke, and after signing Streit ,drafting Hagg and knowing that Timonen will stay for more than 1 year it's not about a PMD anymore
Voracek will always hold more Value because we do not want to trade him

Don't kid yourself, the Flyers single biggest need, outside of a long term solution in net, is an elite number one defenseman who can move the puck and control the play. Drafting Hagg, Morin, and Gostisbehere doesn't fill that need, as none of them are likely to even develop into top pairing guys, let alone a number one who can fill the void left by the loss of Pronger and the impending retirement of Timonen. Plus, I don't know where you got the confidence to pencil in Timonen for another year after this one, because I haven't seen a single thing to suggest that he's considering two more seasons.

I don't mind if you feel like Jake has more value than Edler, and you don't want to trade him because of it. But don't act like signing Streit and drafting a couple of defensemen solves our needs on defense, because it doesn't. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I watch Edler with any consistency, so I'm not going to act all high and mighty about player value. I think Jake holds a ton of value to the Flyers; probably more than to any other team in the league. His chemistry with Giroux is fantastic, and I'm excited to see how they push each other for an entire 82 game season.

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08-28-2013, 10:47 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Don't kid yourself, the Flyers single biggest need, outside of a long term solution in net, is an elite number one defenseman who can move the puck and control the play. Drafting Hagg, Morin, and Gostisbehere doesn't fill that need, as none of them are likely to even develop into top pairing guys, let alone a number one who can fill the void left by the loss of Pronger and the impending retirement of Timonen. Plus, I don't know where you got the confidence to pencil in Timonen for another year after this one, because I haven't seen a single thing to suggest that he's considering two more seasons.

I don't mind if you feel like Jake has more value than Edler, and you don't want to trade him because of it. But don't act like signing Streit and drafting a couple of defensemen solves our needs on defense, because it doesn't. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I watch Edler with any consistency, so I'm not going to act all high and mighty about player value. I think Jake holds a ton of value to the Flyers; probably more than to any other team in the league. His chemistry with Giroux is fantastic, and I'm excited to see how they push each other for an entire 82 game season.

Well guess what Edler is not Pronger

and for Timonen: http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...my-last-season

i know what i'm talking about not like you


Last edited by Flyerss: 08-28-2013 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Link
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Old
08-28-2013, 11:12 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
Well guess what Edler is not Pronger

and for Timonen: http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...my-last-season

i know what i'm talking about not like you
I never said Edler could replace Pronger, but I think he could replace Timonen if he keeps growing as a player. How is that crazy to suggest?

Btw, the link says nothing about him for sure coming back after next season, something you pretty much declared in previous posts. You don't have the slightest clue as to if he's going to play beyond 2013-2014.

I'm glad you're confident in the future of their defense when it basically hinges on a whole bunch of wildcards, but most fans aren't.

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Old
08-28-2013, 11:25 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
Well this is Voracek first year as 1st line winger and every Flyers fan knows that it wasn't a fluke, and after signing Streit ,drafting Hagg and knowing that Timonen will stay for more than 1 year it's not about a PMD anymore

Voracek will always hold more Value because we do not want to trade him
Ah. Now it makes sense. Voracek has more value because Philly doesn't want to trade him and Edler has less because Vancouver wants to trade him? Ridiculous argument is ridiculous.

Vancouver doesn't want to trade Edler. It would leave a large hole. Just like trading Voracek would leave a huge hole for Philly. Both players obviously have value but I just don't think they are good trading partners. You trade redundant assets not your best players. Both players would require an over payment.

But to say that Voracek has more value is a bit ridiculous. I won't say that Edler has more value but there is a lot to consider for value. Contract length, contract size, team needs. Would Edler make Philly better? Yes. Would Voracek make Van better? Yes.

If you think Voracek has more value than Edler you need to bring more to the table than you have. Especially if you know what you are talking about like you claim.

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08-28-2013, 11:38 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
No interest. As I said something like this might work though.



Jakub Voracek
Braydon Coburn




Alex Edler
Chris Higgins or David Booth
No it wouldn't. The difference between Coburn and Edler is not great. However, Voracek is much, much more valuable than either Higgins or Booth.

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08-28-2013, 11:39 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ohnoeszz View Post
...

...

Edler pretty much fits exactly what you need. He's a #1 Dman with the potential to enter Norris discussions. Now, it makes no sense for you to be moving a young guy of Voraceks quality for literally anyone who isn't a proven young star but Edler is what your D corps needs.

Similarly Voracek would be ideal to pair with Kesler but the Canucks cannot afford to pay the premium price he would cost. These teams don't have top of the line expendable assets.
Edler is great but, he is not going to win a Norris trophy unless he makes some big improvements. When I look at defenseman I see a group of elite true #1 defenseman and that group consists of the players like Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo and Doughty. Then there is another group with the likes of OEL, Keith, Letang. And I just do not think Edler is at their level either.

I have a feeling that the Flyers will almost wait this season out, unless they are in contention when the trade deadline comes around, I do not see the Flyers making any big moves. If Brayden Schenn and Sean Couturier breakout or show some really improvements expect them to also stay around. I think the Flyers will target some defenseman during the free-agent period, like maybe Dan Girardi or Dion Phaneuf if they are still available and from there they would wait until Hagg, Morin and Ghost are ready to take the stage which will happen probably 2-3 years from now.

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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
If you think Voracek has more value than Edler you need to bring more to the table than you have. Especially if you know what you are talking about like you claim.
Voracek is younger. He turned 24 two weeks ago.
Voracek has a better contract right now. 4mil cap hit for a couple more years.
Voracek has more potential.

Both players have a ton of value to their own teams but, take that away and Voracek has a lot more value than Edler. We have seen Edler at his best, which is an average at best #1 defenseman who will put up around 45 points in a good year. Voracek still may not have full reached his potential. He currently is a 35+ goal guy, and 67+ point guy. He has the potential to be a PPG+ guy and 45 goal+guy if he plays will a someone of Giroux's caliber.

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08-28-2013, 11:43 AM
  #86
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I dont think that great year Voracek had was a fluke...He's trending up big time and just from watching him he's a hell of a player

Edler's a hell of a player too...
I just think that Voracek has a bit more value..not much more they are quiet comparable.

I still think

Voracek + Coburn for Edler + 1st + Higgins

makes sense. Higgins is a pretty darn good 3rd liner who can sub in on the second line. he's good for 15-20 goals.

Upgrading from Coburn to Edler is going to help the Flyers transition game BIG time. Edler's good for 45-50 points imo... This trade would really help both teams.
Coburn/Garrison would make a very solid second pairing for Vancouver..but they're going to have trouble breaking out of their own zone.. i think that the forwards would have to come back really deep to help with the transition...this IS something that i could see torts handling though..so i still think its a good trade for both teams.

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08-28-2013, 11:44 AM
  #87
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Ill do Edler and Jensen for Voracek.

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08-28-2013, 11:45 AM
  #88
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No it wouldn't. The difference between Coburn and Edler is not great. However, Voracek is much, much more valuable than either Higgins or Booth.
Respectfully disagree. Since 2007-2008 (the year Edler broke into the league and the year after Coburn) Coburn has put up 128 points while Edler has put up 231 points. That is almost twice as productive. If you throw in Coburn's one extra season (16 pts) Edler has put up 87 more points over his NHL career. Further, Coburn's AVV is 4.5M while Edler is at 5M. The measly $500K difference in salary cap just further highlights that in fact the difference between the two is great.

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08-28-2013, 11:50 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
Respectfully disagree. Since 2007-2008 (the year Edler broke into the league and the year after Coburn) Coburn has put up 128 points while Edler has put up 231 points. That is almost twice as productive. If you throw in Coburn's one extra season (16 pts) Edler has put up 87 more points over his NHL career. Further, Coburn's AVV is 4.5M while Edler is at 5M. The measly $500K difference in salary cap just further highlights that in fact the difference between the two is great.
Coburn is a defensive d-man...

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08-28-2013, 12:06 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
Respectfully disagree. Since 2007-2008 (the year Edler broke into the league and the year after Coburn) Coburn has put up 128 points while Edler has put up 231 points. That is almost twice as productive. If you throw in Coburn's one extra season (16 pts) Edler has put up 87 more points over his NHL career. Further, Coburn's AVV is 4.5M while Edler is at 5M. The measly $500K difference in salary cap just further highlights that in fact the difference between the two is great.
Well then if that is how you feel, then Philly keeps him and is happy.

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08-28-2013, 12:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Edler is great but, he is not going to win a Norris trophy unless he makes some big improvements. When I look at defenseman I see a group of elite true #1 defenseman and that group consists of the players like Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo and Doughty. Then there is another group with the likes of OEL, Keith, Letang. And I just do not think Edler is at their level either.

I have a feeling that the Flyers will almost wait this season out, unless they are in contention when the trade deadline comes around, I do not see the Flyers making any big moves. If Brayden Schenn and Sean Couturier breakout or show some really improvements expect them to also stay around. I think the Flyers will target some defenseman during the free-agent period, like maybe Dan Girardi or Dion Phaneuf if they are still available and from there they would wait until Hagg, Morin and Ghost are ready to take the stage which will happen probably 2-3 years from now.



Voracek is younger. He turned 24 two weeks ago.
Voracek has a better contract right now. 4mil cap hit for a couple more years.
Voracek has more potential.

Both players have a ton of value to their own teams but, take that away and Voracek has a lot more value than Edler. We have seen Edler at his best, which is an average at best #1 defenseman who will put up around 45 points in a good year. Voracek still may not have full reached his potential. He currently is a 35+ goal guy, and 67+ point guy. He has the potential to be a PPG+ guy and 45 goal+guy if he plays will a someone of Giroux's caliber.
I do like the rose coloured glasses you wear. Edler has stopped progressing and we've seen the best of him yet Voracek still has untapped potential. The only rebuttle I need is that Lidstom started his reign as the Norris champion when he was past 30 years of age. Progression is rarely linear and saying that Edler has peaked at 27 is a comment that I see as not holding any water.


Last edited by Upoil: 08-28-2013 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Thought you were Flyerss. (Sorry!)
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08-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #92
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Coburn is a defensive d-man...
We could get into Corsi ratings.... Unless having worse possession numbers means that he's better at defense?

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08-28-2013, 12:15 PM
  #93
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NOT fan of either team. The initial proposal is true garbage.

Edler is becoming a physical d man. He is still learning. Torts is gonna make him better count on that.

I am a Tampa and Detroit fan and would love to get hands on Edler yet dont think that can happen honestly.

Seems most of you undervalue him he is becoming a better defender and true physical d man which he lacked even a few years ago. He already was a great scoring d man.


Voracek for him straight up makes sense and is close but I put more value on Edler.

If vancouver had another d man that could move into top four than they could make the deal cause figure voracek would work out fine with sedins.

I wouldnt do this trade at this time if was vancouver they can do lower ended defense guy for a top 6 if they find they need that later towards trade deadline or during camp with a prospect or draft choice thing. Or if some team wants to get rid of some salary which is possible too.

I have had this debate in past and put Edler as a top 15 d man is many who disagree yet I think he just keeps getting more physical and better at own end. I think that continues. He has a ton of value.

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08-28-2013, 12:20 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
Ah. Now it makes sense. Voracek has more value because Philly doesn't want to trade him and Edler has less because Vancouver wants to trade him? Ridiculous argument is ridiculous.

Vancouver doesn't want to trade Edler. It would leave a large hole. Just like trading Voracek would leave a huge hole for Philly. Both players obviously have value but I just don't think they are good trading partners. You trade redundant assets not your best players. Both players would require an over payment.

But to say that Voracek has more value is a bit ridiculous. I won't say that Edler has more value but there is a lot to consider for value. Contract length, contract size, team needs. Would Edler make Philly better? Yes. Would Voracek make Van better? Yes.

If you think Voracek has more value than Edler you need to bring more to the table than you have. Especially if you know what you are talking about like you claim.
Did you see a Flyers fan putting Voracek in Trade proposal this season?
Did you see a cancuks fan putting Edler in Trade proposal this season?

and where are we going to put Edler?

if Edler plays as a Top 4 that means that a 4m contract is sliding to the bottom pairing

now Grossman + 4m = 7.5m for a bottom pairing that would be great

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08-28-2013, 12:29 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
Did you see a Flyers fan putting Voracek in Trade proposal this season?
Did you see a cancuks fan putting Edler in Trade proposal this season?

and where are we going to put Edler?

if Edler plays as a Top 4 that means that a 4m contract is sliding to the bottom pairing

now Grossman + 4m = 7.5m for a bottom pairing that would be great
Well. Let's move the goalposts a bit shall we? You aren't discussing value as a whole anymore (which I was) you are discussing value to a team. Just like Pits won't value Stamkos as highly as other teams that doesn't detract from Stamkos' value.

I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that Voracek has more value than Edler. Had nothing to do with how much your bottom pairing would get paid after this imaginary transaction. Mostly just reaffirmed my point that value is derived from multiple factors.

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08-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
Well. Let's move the goalposts a bit shall we? You aren't discussing value as a whole anymore (which I was) you are discussing value to a team. Just like Pits won't value Stamkos as highly as other teams that doesn't detract from Stamkos' value.

I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that Voracek has more value than Edler. Had nothing to do with how much your bottom pairing would get paid after this imaginary transaction. Mostly just reaffirmed my point that value is derived from multiple factors.
i wouldn't Trade Voracek for Edler

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08-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
Well. Let's move the goalposts a bit shall we? You aren't discussing value as a whole anymore (which I was) you are discussing value to a team. Just like Pits won't value Stamkos as highly as other teams that doesn't detract from Stamkos' value.

I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that Voracek has more value than Edler. Had nothing to do with how much your bottom pairing would get paid after this imaginary transaction. Mostly just reaffirmed my point that value is derived from multiple factors.
But it is true that you probably won't find ANY Flyer fans willing to trade Jake for Edler 1 for 1. And hence, to Flyers fans, they feel that it would take Edler +. But I do agree that the OP is lospided in Philly's favour. And yes, with Philly having Kimmo, Schenn, Coburn, Grossmann, Streit and Mez all making 3.5 or more, adding Edler creates more of a logjam. I think Edler for Jake "might" be something to look at next year once Kimmo and Mez are off the books. And FWIW, I like Edler. I think he would help Philly. But losing Jake would hurt too much as he is by far our best winger and no one can replace his production or minutes.

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08-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #98
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But it is true that you probably won't find ANY Flyer fans willing to trade Jake for Edler 1 for 1. And hence, to Flyers fans, they feel that it would take Edler +. But I do agree that the OP is lospided in Philly's favour. And yes, with Philly having Kimmo, Schenn, Coburn, Grossmann, Streit and Mez all making 3.5 or more, adding Edler creates more of a logjam. I think Edler for Jake "might" be something to look at next year once Kimmo and Mez are off the books. And FWIW, I like Edler. I think he would help Philly. But losing Jake would hurt too much as he is by far our best winger and no one can replace his production or minutes.
Yeah. It definitely doesn't look like a good fit this year. It would make more sense this year if Holmgren hadn't signed Steit to that (ridiculous) contract. But even if that had happened I can understand that Philly wouldn't want to castrate themselves offensively, excuse my hyperbole.

Also, from Nuck's perspective the trade wouldn't make any sense unless they know that one of Corrado or Tanev can handle a top 4 job and make Edler expendable.

In this instance Philly and the Nucks aren't good trading partners as both need their roster players to compete for a playoff spot. Both players would require premiums to pry them out of their respective lineups.

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08-28-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Upoil View Post
Yeah. It definitely doesn't look like a good fit this year. It would make more sense this year if Holmgren hadn't signed Steit to that (ridiculous) contract. But even if that had happened I can understand that Philly wouldn't want to castrate themselves offensively, excuse my hyperbole.

Also, from Nuck's perspective the trade wouldn't make any sense unless they know that one of Corrado or Tanev can handle a top 4 job and make Edler expendable.

In this instance Philly and the Nucks aren't good trading partners as both need their roster players to compete for a playoff spot. Both players would require premiums to pry them out of their respective lineups.
100% agree. Both teams are trying to compete this year so the usual player for young prospects doesn't work. And usually, teams do not trade players they are happy with UNLESS it is a big overpayment. And that is why Jake won't get moved. They have no incentive to do so.

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08-28-2013, 01:26 PM
  #100
Spice Trader
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Victoria
Posts: 427
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Is Nazim Kadri a PPG player? He has shown it as often as JV has for the same amount of time.

Before people go all wonky on me I don't think NK is as good as JV.

Couple facts tho.

It is widely agreed that D and centers are the most valuable position. Wingers being the least valuable.

If your going to call JV a top line winger you have to call Edler a #1 dman. there is not 29 better Dmen and ill agree there is not 29 better RW's.

Value is equal. IF the respective fan bases want to keep there player that's fine. But the difference is sure as ***** not two firsts.

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