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Old
08-28-2013, 01:43 PM
  #101
The Dream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
Is Nazim Kadri a PPG player? He has shown it as often as JV has for the same amount of time.

Before people go all wonky on me I don't think NK is as good as JV.

Couple facts tho.

It is widely agreed that D and centers are the most valuable position. Wingers being the least valuable.

If your going to call JV a top line winger you have to call Edler a #1 dman. there is not 29 better Dmen and ill agree there is not 29 better RW's.

Value is equal. IF the respective fan bases want to keep there player that's fine. But the difference is sure as ***** not two firsts.
That is true in terms of trade value it goes:

Centers
Defenseman
Wingers
Goalies

JV is a better player and has more value that Edler but, I guess the notion that Defenseman are more valuable than a winger is true so that sort of makes it closer. But, I still think that JV's value is still higher nonetheless. I think a fair trade in terms of value would be Edler and a 1st for Voracek. Vancouver will most likely have a pick in the 20's, so it does not carry the same weight as a lottery pick. However, I can not see either of these two team be inclined to do a trade such as that.

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08-28-2013, 01:59 PM
  #102
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Edler is a great defensman but i don't think he's the last piece of the puzzle, i would want him on the Flyers but not at the expense of Voracek and there is nothing that we could offer for him that would make the Canucks happy

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08-28-2013, 02:04 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96 View Post
No it wouldn't. The difference between Coburn and Edler is not great. However, Voracek is much, much more valuable than either Higgins or Booth.
The difference between Coburn & Edler is quite big.

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08-28-2013, 02:08 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Voracek has a better contract right now. 4mil cap hit for a couple more years.
Voracek has more potential.
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankerguy View Post
Voracek + Coburn for Edler + 1st + Higgins
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanucksSayEh View Post
Ill do Edler and Jensen for Voracek.
Easy no to both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertguess2013 View Post
NOT fan of either team. The initial proposal is true garbage.

Edler is becoming a physical d man. He is still learning. Torts is gonna make him better count on that.

I am a Tampa and Detroit fan and would love to get hands on Edler yet dont think that can happen honestly.

Seems most of you undervalue him he is becoming a better defender and true physical d man which he lacked even a few years ago. He already was a great scoring d man.


Voracek for him straight up makes sense and is close but I put more value on Edler.

If vancouver had another d man that could move into top four than they could make the deal cause figure voracek would work out fine with sedins.

I wouldnt do this trade at this time if was vancouver they can do lower ended defense guy for a top 6 if they find they need that later towards trade deadline or during camp with a prospect or draft choice thing. Or if some team wants to get rid of some salary which is possible too.

I have had this debate in past and put Edler as a top 15 d man is many who disagree yet I think he just keeps getting more physical and better at own end. I think that continues. He has a ton of value.
This guy knows what he's talking about.

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08-28-2013, 02:37 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
The difference between Coburn & Edler is quite big.
It's certainly not equivalent to "Voracek minus Higgins or Booth".

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08-28-2013, 02:51 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
Edler is a great defensman but i don't think he's the last piece of the puzzle, i would want him on the Flyers but not at the expense of Voracek and there is nothing that we could offer for him that would make the Canucks happy
That's fair enough, and imo that's what it would cost to get Edler out of Van.

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08-28-2013, 02:52 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertguess2013 View Post
I have had this debate in past and put Edler as a top 15 d man is many who disagree yet I think he just keeps getting more physical and better at own end. I think that continues. He has a ton of value.
Well, I would take Weber, Karlsson, Subban, Letang, Suter, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara, OEL, Girardi, Enstrom, Kronwall, Big Buff, Seabrook, Shattenkirk Seth Jones and maybe four or five other top defensive prospects before I take Edler and I'm sure I forgot some people. Edler is top 20 d-man probably. He is not old for sure but, you do not see many defenseman get much better after 27. Many and most will stay stagnant and remain very good for another 6-7 years but, I doubt you will see Edler make that jump into a Norris Candidate or even in that league. But, then again how can I be sure, maybe he will surprise me and there is a chance he will.

But there are only 4 right wingers who average more goals last year than Voracek. He is barely 24, and he still can improve and I almost expect an improvement in his overall abilities. And the only right wingers I take over Voracek are Ovi, Kane, Kessel, and Nash.

I am not saying Edler is on the decline and Voracek is on the rise, but I find it more likely that Voracek will continue to improve rather than Edler. Of course I think the original proposal was bad, but I still do believe Voracek's value is higher by a decent amount.

I mentioned this earlier but, if the Flyers had a guy like Strome or Drouin in their system I would be much more inclined to move Voracek for Edler and a decent pick in a trade. And I also have a feeling that Vancouver would feel the same if a guy like Trouba or Jones was waiting in the wing.

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08-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #108
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Edler + Jensen for B.Schenn and L.Schenn

Philly is pretty deep with forwards (especially centers), Edler had some of his best success playing alongside an offensive minded d-man like ehroff and could find that same success with streit or timmonen.

Canucks management continues to stress they want to get younger, harder to play against and bigger and although it hurts to lose our number one D-man these two fit the bill.

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Old
08-28-2013, 02:58 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Well, I would take Weber, Karlsson, Subban, Letang, Suter, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara, OEL, Girardi, Enstrom, Kronwall, Big Buff, Seabrook, Shattenkirk Seth Jones and maybe four or five other top defensive prospects before I take Edler and I'm sure I forgot some people. Edler is top 20 d-man probably. He is not old for sure but, you do not see many defenseman get much better after 27. Many and most will stay stagnant and remain very good for another 6-7 years but, I doubt you will see Edler make that jump into a Norris Candidate or even in that league. But, then again how can I be sure, maybe he will surprise me and there is a chance he will.

But there are only 4 right wingers who average more goals last year than Voracek. He is barely 24, and he still can improve and I almost expect an improvement in his overall abilities. And the only right wingers I take over Voracek are Ovi, Kane, Kessel, and Nash.

I am not saying Edler is on the decline and Voracek is on the rise, but I find it more likely that Voracek will continue to improve rather than Edler. Of course I think the original proposal was bad, but I still do believe Voracek's value is higher by a decent amount.

I mentioned this earlier but, if the Flyers had a guy like Strome or Drouin in their system I would be much more inclined to move Voracek for Edler and a decent pick in a trade. And I also have a feeling that Vancouver would feel the same if a guy like Trouba or Jones was waiting in the wing.
I think your comparisons would be more valid if you included all wingers or you narrowed your group of defensemen down to the specific side. Seems like picking and choosing when you compare Edler to all defensemen and Jake to just specifically right wingers. (But I'm also nit-picky.)

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Old
08-28-2013, 03:28 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Well, I would take Weber, Karlsson, Subban, Letang, Suter, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara, OEL, Girardi, Enstrom, Kronwall, Big Buff, Seabrook, Shattenkirk Seth Jones and maybe four or five other top defensive prospects before I take Edler
First, Girardi, Kronwall, Enstrom and Shattenkirk shouldn't be on your list, though Marc Staal arguably should (not sure how you take Girardi over Staal) and perhaps Phaneuf...

Second, you can't add the prospects, because their value is significantly different to, say, Colorado as opposed to Chicago. If I'm a good team now, I want Edler. If I'm rebuilding, I want Seth Jones.

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Old
08-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #111
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Lots of defensemen improve after 27. I would say it is the norm, not the exception.

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08-28-2013, 03:43 PM
  #112
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I would do Voracek + Coburn for Edler, Higgins and a 1st.

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08-28-2013, 03:47 PM
  #113
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Having lived in BC and seen Edler quite a bit, even a little in juniors, I can't call him a #1 defenseman with a straight face. But Voraceck is ****ing great.

He's better than guys like Wideman and Carle defensively, but I wouldn't call him good. He can't carry a pairing defensively and ideally you want someone great defensively to cover for him. I'm not saying he's not better than many of these guys, but there's a ton of guys that can do what he can or come close to it that get traded for less than people want for him. Personally I don't think he has the iq to be a legit #1.

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08-28-2013, 05:08 PM
  #114
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Massive hole in our defense without Edler. Garrison, Hamhuis, Bieksa wouldn't do it for Voracek just to make our top 6 better.

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Old
08-28-2013, 11:55 PM
  #115
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Sorry to go off topic, but..

Quote:
Originally Posted by B4NND1T View Post
There is no way the Flyers are getting Pietrangelo without Giroux involved, so good luck with that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
That package doesn't get you anything CLOSE to Pietrangelo. Pietrangelo is easily a top 10 defensemen.
Funny how the Flyers could have had arguably the best defenseman in the league, Shea Weber, for Couturier + B. Schenn + Picks, but to get Pietrangelo they wouldn't come close without including Giroux.

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08-29-2013, 12:15 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJS14 View Post
Sorry to go off topic, but..





Funny how the Flyers could have had arguably the best defenseman in the league, Shea Weber, for Couturier + B. Schenn + Picks, but to get Pietrangelo they wouldn't come close without including Giroux.
To be fair, two different teams, two very different situations. Trades with elite players like that require special circumstances, which I don't think were/are present in either situation.

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Old
08-29-2013, 12:24 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by robertguess2013 View Post
NOT fan of either team. The initial proposal is true garbage.

Edler is becoming a physical d man. He is still learning. Torts is gonna make him better count on that.

I am a Tampa and Detroit fan and would love to get hands on Edler yet dont think that can happen honestly.

Seems most of you undervalue him he is becoming a better defender and true physical d man which he lacked even a few years ago. He already was a great scoring d man.


Voracek for him straight up makes sense and is close but I put more value on Edler.

If vancouver had another d man that could move into top four than they could make the deal cause figure voracek would work out fine with sedins.

I wouldnt do this trade at this time if was vancouver they can do lower ended defense guy for a top 6 if they find they need that later towards trade deadline or during camp with a prospect or draft choice thing. Or if some team wants to get rid of some salary which is possible too.

I have had this debate in past and put Edler as a top 15 d man is many who disagree yet I think he just keeps getting more physical and better at own end. I think that continues. He has a ton of value.
Nah, I see Voracek as substantially more valuable

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Old
08-29-2013, 12:32 AM
  #118
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Nah, I see Voracek as substantially more valuable
Really?

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Old
08-29-2013, 12:58 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinChurch View Post
Nah, I see Voracek as substantially more valuable
Explain. I'm curious.

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Old
08-29-2013, 08:16 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Well, I would take Weber, Karlsson, Subban, Letang, Suter, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Keith, Chara, OEL, Girardi, Enstrom, Kronwall, Big Buff, Seabrook, Shattenkirk Seth Jones and maybe four or five other top defensive prospects before I take Edler and I'm sure I forgot some people. Edler is top 20 d-man probably. He is not old for sure but, you do not see many defenseman get much better after 27. Many and most will stay stagnant and remain very good for another 6-7 years but, I doubt you will see Edler make that jump into a Norris Candidate or even in that league. But, then again how can I be sure, maybe he will surprise me and there is a chance he will.
Bolded are arguable, underlined are laughable.

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Old
08-29-2013, 09:17 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
Bolded are arguable, underlined are laughable.
Jones is immediately a top 4 d-man on almost every team. And has the potential to win many norris trophies. While Edler is pretty far from even being in contention for one. Edler is not going to get much better if at all for that matter. If you would give me Seth Jones in a trade for Edler I would really consider it. Since, I am accounting the whole package, and that includes potential. And if you see, what is after Jones you will see I would also take many of the top defensive prospects before Edler.

And for Shattenkirk, he is quite underrated I have heard a few blues fans argue that they think Shattenkirk is better than Pietrangelo overall.

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Old
08-29-2013, 09:20 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ZKass The Bass View Post
Explain. I'm curious.
That guy may have overestimated Voracek or underestimated Edler, but nonetheless Voracek still has more value.

- Voracek is younger
- Voracek has much more potential
- Voracek has great contract for the next few years.

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Old
08-29-2013, 09:23 AM
  #123
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Philly takes this and runs.

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Old
08-29-2013, 09:29 AM
  #124
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Is it just me or is every Vancouver player on this board always underrated? This is coming from a neutral viewpoint but it's just something I've noticed...

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Old
08-29-2013, 09:57 AM
  #125
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As others have said...these 2 teams are bad trading partners. If I am Philly and trying to acquire Edler, I do so by offering a lesser D-man and a lesser player...not my teams 2nd best player.

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