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The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

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Old
08-28-2013, 08:18 AM
  #551
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I cant wait to see Sedins blocking shots.

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08-28-2013, 08:32 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How do you know that they didn't?
If they did, the firing wouldn't have been such a shock to Torts. From interview he had no clue this was coming. If things were said during the season, there would have been at least a hint of foreshadow.

It's starting to feel like maybe, just maybe, all those trades over the past season might've drained a little more character out of the room then we wanted to. The Metro is shaping up to be the elite division in the league, both in skill and toughness. It's going to be a war, and the Rangers are going to need just as much mental toughness as physical to win it.

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08-28-2013, 08:41 AM
  #553
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No. Proof he deserved to be HERE.

But he should not have gotten minimal minutes on bottom 6.
Given our investment in him, and how blue a chip he is, we should have put him in top 6, and let him make mistakes and learn while doing so.
What are you blabbering on about now? What investment? Hes a mid-late first round draft pick on an entry level deal. You act as if hes the second coming. Hes a prospect trying to find his way in the NHL right now, nothing more, nothing less.

This mentality that undeserving players should be handed top 6 minutes on a silver platter has got to stop. Its embarrassing.

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08-28-2013, 08:44 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
If they did, the firing wouldn't have been such a shock to Torts. From interview he had no clue this was coming. If things were said during the season, there would have been at least a hint of foreshadow.
You don't know that. Maybe the problems were discussed, but Torts didn't believe he'd get fired because of them. And who says you can 100% trust what Torts said anyway? We are always getting conflicting reports about what someone said or didn't say.

Some of you guys sound awfully hypocritical saying thing like "if they had found their balls" or calling them gutless cowards, as someone else did. It's real easy to write those things on an internet message board despite not having all the information.

We weren't in the room. We don't know what happened. The bottom line is that Torts is gone and AV is here. Time to move on.

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08-28-2013, 08:56 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
You don't know that. Maybe the problems were discussed, but Torts didn't believe he'd get fired because of them. And who says you can 100% trust what Torts said anyway? We are always getting conflicting reports about what someone said or didn't say.

Some of you guys sound awfully hypocritical saying thing like "if they had found their balls" or calling them gutless cowards, as someone else did. It's real easy to write those things on an internet message board despite not having all the information.

We weren't in the room. We don't know what happened. The bottom line is that Torts is gone and AV is here. Time to move on.
Ill star this so I can reference it when AV's name is in the former portion of the quote.

You're right about us not knowing what occurred, but this organization now has a long history under Sather of scapegoating coaches. I am sick of it.

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Old
08-28-2013, 09:00 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
That's the part that gets me. It really does feel from various interviews that no one on the roster went to anyone on the coaching staff and expressed concerns about the system, or things not working out, or whatever. There was one quote from Tortorella over the past two weeks (from some Vancouver paper) talking about how not one player brought up any issues to him during the exit interviews.

Yes, Torts yells and does his best to be a grouch. But when all is said and done, he's a little old chihuahua who's all bark and no bite. How a bunch of young professional athletes can be so intimidated by a little old man like that is beyond me.

The best thing about this team was their guts and character on the ice. Why did it disappear in the dressing room?

Whether it's Tortorella or any other coach, I want to see players who have the balls to talk to their coach, to communicate, to do what's best for the team. Even if they would've fired the coaching staff no matter what, I want the players to stand up and express themselves.
I believe this may be one of the interviews you were referring to which sheds a little more insight on Torts and the lack of communication between players:

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Bo...976/story.html

I'm over the whole Torts thing, he is gone, but the players are not, and they, along with Sather, are who I will hold accountable if things do not improve this year. In almost every player interview this summer, there has been mention of "having fun," which is fine and dandy but doesn't mean **** to me unless they are winning games. They will still need to bust their balls and put in max effort even though the coach is less of a hardass.

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08-28-2013, 09:13 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yea, thats it.

I definitely would have preferred that the coach reward a kid who played like a bum all season with more ice-time in a lockout-shortened season.

We can debate the Tortorella firing all day - theres plenty of good points on both sides. The argument about Kreider being misused is a ****** one. He played like a dog and any coach with a mandate to make the playoffs would have limited him in a 48 game season
therein lies the flaw in your argument. CK was used in a bottom 6 role from the start and asked to become a checking forward. Clearly he needs to strengthen the defensive side of his game, but if you are interested in a rookie performing up to his potential while learning the pro game you must put him in a situation that uses his existing strengths. Torts did not do this because he wanted him in Hartford all along.

You could hear it in his post 2012 playoff interviews. Although CK was one of his better players and was very clutch he would always reference his deficiencies and how much work he had to do. He had no intention of just letting him play to his strengths. And then when defensive mistakes were made he limited ice time and got in his head and all creativity and confidence were shot.

Hopefully AV understands that when you have a thoroughbred you have to let him run. Otherwise you will never get the most out of him.

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08-28-2013, 09:26 AM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
If they did, the firing wouldn't have been such a shock to Torts. From interview he had no clue this was coming. If things were said during the season, there would have been at least a hint of foreshadow.

It's starting to feel like maybe, just maybe, all those trades over the past season might've drained a little more character out of the room then we wanted to. The Metro is shaping up to be the elite division in the league, both in skill and toughness. It's going to be a war, and the Rangers are going to need just as much mental toughness as physical to win it.
the bottom line is Torts' style was able to foster obedience and buy-in. However, no one likes to be yelled at and criticized on a consistent basis. So, when the path to a championship became less clear Torts found out that although he had succeeded in getting the players to do what he told them, they didn't respect him or have loyalty to him. And when the opportunity presented itself to tell someone what they thought of him, that lack of respect and loyalty bit him hard.

You cannot be a hard ass all the time when dealing with adults and expect that those who you abuse will have your back when you yourself are vulnerable. Anyone with an abusive boss knows that if they ceased being afraid of their boss and felt that they could speak out without getting in trouble would do so in a heartbeat.

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08-28-2013, 09:32 AM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
therein lies the flaw in your argument. CK was used in a bottom 6 role from the start and asked to become a checking forward. Clearly he needs to strengthen the defensive side of his game, but if you are interested in a rookie performing up to his potential while learning the pro game you must put him in a situation that uses his existing strengths. Torts did not do this because he wanted him in Hartford all along.

You could hear it in his post 2012 playoff interviews. Although CK was one of his better players and was very clutch he would always reference his deficiencies and how much work he had to do. He had no intention of just letting him play to his strengths. And then when defensive mistakes were made he limited ice time and got in his head and all creativity and confidence were shot.

Hopefully AV understands that when you have a thoroughbred you have to let him run. Otherwise you will never get the most out of him.
Im interested in Kreider consistently showing aggression with the minutes he does get. A thoroughbred runs in any situation -- Kreider looked more like one of those carriage horses you see in Central Park all season. Theres zero excuse for not bringing it every night, no matter where you are in the lineup.

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Old
08-28-2013, 09:40 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ill star this so I can reference it when AV's name is in the former portion of the quote.

You're right about us not knowing what occurred, but this organization now has a long history under Sather of scapegoating coaches. I am sick of it.
You might as well just get over it.

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08-28-2013, 10:00 AM
  #561
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You might as well just get over it.
Wonderful.

I look forwarded to the continued flawed arguments about how our coach's system and/or attitude is holding this team back, virtually ignoring that the roster simply isn't deep or skilled enough to win a championship.

As long as Sather continues to rearrange the deck chairs with coaching changes, that'll provide suitable distractions and ample opportunities to "get over it."

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Old
08-28-2013, 10:30 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Wonderful.

I look forwarded to the continued flawed arguments about how our coach's system and/or attitude is holding this team back, virtually ignoring that the roster simply isn't deep or skilled enough to win a championship.

As long as Sather continues to rearrange the deck chairs with coaching changes, that'll provide suitable distractions and ample opportunities to "get over it."
I don't know how the talk will go, but in the end it -- should -- come down to how we look and if we are moving in the right direction.

Under Torts:
-We had a horrible offense
-No PP
-Constant breakdowns defensively
-We played a style that worn tremendosuly on our players
-We struggled to just get into the PO's, while looking like **** on the ice

Its quite possible that we aren't good enough to win a Cup. I don't think anyone can aruge that we are the best team in the league. But I do think we should be up there in the talks atleast. If not the top 2 at least the top 8. There aren't atleast 8 other teams in this league who are complete and without flaws and got everything we don't.

Last season finnished 15th overall and, not taking Hank into consideration, played like a game that was fully compareable with the 16-24th team in this league.

I don't think our roster is that bad.

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08-28-2013, 11:14 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Wonderful.

I look forwarded to the continued flawed arguments about how our coach's system and/or attitude is holding this team back, virtually ignoring that the roster simply isn't deep or skilled enough to win a championship.

As long as Sather continues to rearrange the deck chairs with coaching changes, that'll provide suitable distractions and ample opportunities to "get over it."
Well, no ****. This isn't like a situation of political activism here. It isn't a matter of "if no one complains, nothing will happen." Sather isn't going anywhere. We can breakdown and analyze what he's done all we want, but sometimes, you just gotta shrug your shoulders and accept your lot as a Rangers fan.

Here's what I'm looking forward to under Vigneault: similar or greater levels of success from a more entertaining hockey team.

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08-28-2013, 12:19 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Wonderful.

I look forwarded to the continued flawed arguments about how our coach's system and/or attitude is holding this team back, virtually ignoring that the roster simply isn't deep or skilled enough to win a championship.

As long as Sather continues to rearrange the deck chairs with coaching changes, that'll provide suitable distractions and ample opportunities to "get over it."
Its hard to build a championship team when you get stuck in a rut of being a bubble playoff team nearly every year. Its hard to develop elite talent picking in the middle part of the 1st round every year. Its hard to bring elite talent in through free agency because most teams don't let their elite talent walk out the door. For where the Rangers have drafted the past few years and not having a top-5 pick they have done a pretty solid job of putting a contending team together.

Sure, when they dont win the cup the easy scapegoat is the coach, but thats happens in any sport. Would AV have been able to get us any further than Torts did last year? Probably not. Maybe Torts lost the room a little bit, maybe he didn't. At the end of the day, Sather just felt like it was time for a change.

I don't think anyone here is ignoring the flaws with the roster. We all know we need another scoring winger and maybe a physical crease-clearing defenseman. The sad truth is it's way easier to go out and get a new coach then to reconstruct a roster. Thats just sports.

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08-28-2013, 01:15 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I don't know how the talk will go, but in the end it -- should -- come down to how we look and if we are moving in the right direction.

Under Torts:
-We had a horrible offense
-No PP
-Constant breakdowns defensively
-We played a style that worn tremendosuly on our players
-We struggled to just get into the PO's, while looking like **** on the ice

Its quite possible that we aren't good enough to win a Cup. I don't think anyone can aruge that we are the best team in the league. But I do think we should be up there in the talks atleast. If not the top 2 at least the top 8. There aren't atleast 8 other teams in this league who are complete and without flaws and got everything we don't.

Last season finnished 15th overall and, not taking Hank into consideration, played like a game that was fully compareable with the 16-24th team in this league.

I don't think our roster is that bad.
Horrible offense and constant defensive breakdowns under Torts. How did they win all those games?

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Old
08-28-2013, 01:18 PM
  #566
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Horrible offense and constant defensive breakdowns under Torts. How did they win all those games?

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08-28-2013, 02:08 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yea, thats it.

I definitely would have preferred that the coach reward a kid who played like a bum all season with more ice-time in a lockout-shortened season.

We can debate the Tortorella firing all day - theres plenty of good points on both sides. The argument about Kreider being misused is a ****** one. He played like a dog and any coach with a mandate to make the playoffs would have limited him in a 48 game season
Time will tell. As to the bold,
1. I dispute the assessment as being true more often than not.
2. To the extent the kid disappointed, it was because he was shackled by an ego driven Torts.

I am not saying, if Kreider had been allowed to play, all things good in the universe would have aligned and there would be no mistakes.

I am saying the smart thing to do was to FIRST not get in his head, then let him play with proper guidance and direction and learn from his mistakes. IMO that did not happen, and that is why Torts will always be wrong on this.

The bigger picture, people is CK is a special talent on a time sensitive ELC.
The dots need to be connected, ASAP, and the coach STILL was adamant about his way.

Bite me, JT, you selfish __________.

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08-28-2013, 02:10 PM
  #568
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Kudos to Matty Norstrom--he would have been a great Ranger. One of the dumbest trades in my memory sending him to Los Angeles.

Looking at the Rangers of the last few years though we've had numerous forwards with a very predictable shoot first mentality. Drury was certainly that way. Callahan also. I like Boyle a lot but he can't make a play to save his life. Gaborik and Nash while capable of making plays are both mostly in that same kind of mold and I expect Kreider is going to be as well.

Adding Brassard and Zuccarello into the mix--both very creative helped towards the end of last year and Stepan is very good. If Richards were to decide to show up in shape this year maybe we'll have another.
I remember this.
On the nose, you called it as it was.

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08-28-2013, 02:21 PM
  #569
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What are you blabbering on about now? What investment? Hes a mid-late first round draft pick on an entry level deal. You act as if hes the second coming. Hes a prospect trying to find his way in the NHL right now, nothing more, nothing less.

This mentality that undeserving players should be handed top 6 minutes on a silver platter has got to stop. Its embarrassing.
What investment? He is NOT an ordinary generic prospect.
He is way superior speed. We knew that when we drafted him. We did NOT know, as he filled out, if it would be bulk that worked against that speed. We apparently got lucky there.

He also has a great shot which he is developing and improving. Maybe not world class sniper shooting skill, but definitely, obviously a formidable shot.

These assets need be actively recognized, developed carefully and then strategically exploited.

But you would rather just see what happens passively, let the chips fall where they may cause he's just run of the mill. That's really

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08-28-2013, 02:45 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
What investment? He is NOT an ordinary generic prospect.
He is way superior speed. We knew that when we drafted him. We did NOT know, as he filled out, if it would be bulk that worked against that speed. We apparently got lucky there.

He also has a great shot which he is developing and improving. Maybe not world class sniper shooting skill, but definitely, obviously a formidable shot.

These assets need be actively recognized, developed carefully and then strategically exploited.

But you would rather just see what happens passively, let the chips fall where they may cause he's just run of the mill. That's really
Just an ignorant and comical way to go about developing a young player.

JT Miller was drafted 4 spots ahead of Kreider. McIlrath was drafted 9 spots ahead of him. Should these guys be getting the same type of special treatment? Maybe even more?

If Kreider needs to be with top 6 players just to keep from looking so lethargic, well, thats a real problem.

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08-28-2013, 02:48 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Time will tell. As to the bold,
1. I dispute the assessment as being true more often than not.
2. To the extent the kid disappointed, it was because he was shackled by an ego driven Torts.

I am not saying, if Kreider had been allowed to play, all things good in the universe would have aligned and there would be no mistakes.

I am saying the smart thing to do was to FIRST not get in his head, then let him play with proper guidance and direction and learn from his mistakes. IMO that did not happen, and that is why Torts will always be wrong on this.

The bigger picture, people is CK is a special talent on a time sensitive ELC.
The dots need to be connected, ASAP, and the coach STILL was adamant about his way.

Bite me, JT, you selfish __________.
Bern, you're so attached to CK it's actually scaring me a bit.

You keep claiming he's special -- define special for me because I can't see what separates him from most hockey players.

Stamkos is special. Malkin is special. Crosby is special.

On our team, despite the numerous 'good' players, there aren't many special players. Lundqvist is a special player.

CK is just another ****ing prospect who, unfortunately, has had people like you make one stupid statement after another. It's reached a point where CK is going to fall short of expectations. And of course, you're naturally going to blame Torts for his shortcomings, instead of looking yourself in the mirror and stating the obvious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
What investment? He is NOT an ordinary generic prospect.
He is way superior speed. We knew that when we drafted him. We did NOT know, as he filled out, if it would be bulk that worked against that speed. We apparently got lucky there.

He also has a great shot which he is developing and improving. Maybe not world class sniper shooting skill, but definitely, obviously a formidable shot.

These assets need be actively recognized, developed carefully and then strategically exploited.

But you would rather just see what happens passively, let the chips fall where they may cause he's just run of the mill. That's really
Speed and a good shot doesn't make you special.
And outside of speed, and a good shot, CK doesn't have much else going for him.

Mentally, he still belongs in the AHL. The NHL game is too quick for him. He's slow to react. That's not Torts's fault. That's not even CK's fault. Nobody's to blame. Players develop differently and CK proved last season that, he wasn't ready for every day NHL action.

Wake up Bern. Wake up.

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08-28-2013, 02:52 PM
  #572
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Just an ignorant and comical way to go about developing a young player.

JT Miller was drafted 4 spots ahead of Kreider. McIlrath was drafted 9 spots ahead of him. Should these guys be getting the same type of special treatment? Maybe even more?

If Kreider needs to be with top 6 players just to keep from looking so lethargic, well, thats a real problem.
You must have missed the memo.

Chris Kreider has blazing speed, an electrifying shot, and if Torts let him learn how to play hockey at the expense of <insert numerous variables here> then CK would be a bona fide 1st liner LW with 40G potential who's more valuable than the entire team combined.

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08-28-2013, 03:08 PM
  #573
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Watching Game 3 against Boston...5.6% PP...YUCK.

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08-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #574
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I hope Vigneault's priorities are:

1. Developing Chris Kreider
2. Winning hockey games

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08-28-2013, 03:15 PM
  #575
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I hope Vigneault's priorities are:

1. Developing Chris Kreider
2. Winning hockey games
3. Winning hockey games in an exciting fashion
4. Fielding a team thats last in the league in blocked shots

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