HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

MLB Discussion Thread, Part II: Yanks pay Ellsbury

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-28-2013, 01:59 AM
  #376
Baby Punisher
Registered User
 
Baby Punisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 2,442
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers723 View Post
Yup. I understand met fans are not happy about yesterday but alderson has done a good job stockpiling young talent. All we need to do is add some free agents like boston did this past offseason and we can still compete next year even if harvey is out
I'm not sure how much money Wilpon is willing to spend this off season. Plus the past few ventures in to free agency for a big bat have not been good for the Mets.

Baby Punisher is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 04:42 AM
  #377
Zil
Registered User
 
Zil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 3,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Punisher View Post
I'm not sure how much money Wilpon is willing to spend this off season. Plus the past few ventures in to free agency for a big bat have not been good for the Mets.
That's because Omar Minaya is an idiot and targeted the wrong guys. You can't be afraid of spending money to win. You just have to hope Alderson spends it wisely.

Zil is online now  
Old
08-28-2013, 11:38 AM
  #378
Fire Sather
Play Like a Pug
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 19,171
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Everybody really hyped up about a 19 yearold infielder who hasn't shown any pop

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 11:48 AM
  #379
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,802
vCash: 500
Awards:
Wrong again.

"Some international prospects come to the United States and are, at least initially, overwhelmed. Not so for Herrera, who made his U.S. debut in 2012 and was among the Gulf Coast League leaders in a host of offensive categories. While he's not the biggest guy in the world, he's shown he can really hit and projects to be an above-average hitter in the future, with more power than you'd expect from a guy his size. A well-above-average runner, the Colombian infielder should be able steal bases consistently, and that speed should also help him with his range as he continues to get used to playing second base, having shifted from playing third in the Dominican Summer League in 2011 after signing."

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/ml...x.jsp?c_id=pit

__________________
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 11:54 AM
  #380
Fire Sather
Play Like a Pug
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 19,171
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Am I wrong?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=herrer000dil

21 HR in nearly 1000 PA. Yeah.

Alex Escobar and Fernando Martinez were suppose to develop that pop, too.

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 11:57 AM
  #381
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,802
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Am I wrong?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=herrer000dil

11 HR in nearly 1000 PA. Yeah.

Alex Escobar and Fernando Martinez were suppose to develop that pop, too.
He's not a finished product. And pop is not the sole tool of every prospect. If he developes into a gap hitter with speed and athleticism who can steal bases and play sound defense, how is that a bad thing. The kid is 19 and played in the Future Stars game. If you chose to evaluate a prospect based on his stats then you're missing the bigger picture.

Ochoa and FMart were OF who never developed pop. Herrera is a middle infielder.

You can look for things to complain about with this move, but other posters have spelled out why this was/is a good move. You simply are choosing not to see it.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 08-28-2013 at 12:07 PM.
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 12:02 PM
  #382
xander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Section A Lynah Rink
Posts: 4,081
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Everybody really hyped up about a 19 yearold infielder who hasn't shown any pop
1. It is silly to get hyped up about the majority of 19 year olds, this one included.

2. He's a 19 year old in the sally, which is kind of the equivalent of JT Miller in the AHL last year (no, the comparison isn't perfect). No one sane and rational was *****ing because JT miller didn't put up. PPG in the AHL as a 19 year old. You have to take age into a account.

xander is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 12:03 PM
  #383
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Am I wrong?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=herrer000dil

21 HR in nearly 1000 PA. Yeah.

Alex Escobar and Fernando Martinez were suppose to develop that pop, too.
Another article regarding Herrera. This one stating that he could be a 15-20 HR guy in majors if he breaks and could have above average power for 2b.

Also traditionally 2b aren't supposed to be power hitters. They usually are gap hitters with a good OBP.

http://metsminors.net/prospect-spotl...t-second-base/

DontStepanMe is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 12:10 PM
  #384
Big McLargehuge
Moderator
Buff Drinklots
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Germany
Posts: 53,985
vCash: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
2. He's a 19 year old in the sally, which is kind of the equivalent of JT Miller in the AHL last year (no, the comparison isn't perfect). No one sane and rational was *****ing because JT miller didn't put up. PPG in the AHL as a 19 year old. You have to take age into a account.
The SALLY is the second hardest minor league to hit home runs in, behind the Florida State League. 11 home runs from a 19 year-old second baseman is actually really impressive.

Herrera could sit in the 15-20 range of home runs as a second baseman in the Majors, which would be above average at that position, and that doesn't require him to develop pop...that is if his pop carries over against better pitching. Regardless of that, he's one of the youngest players in the league as it is so it's not like he's putting those numbers up as some 21 year-old on their third trip through A-ball.

His 7 home runs in the Gulf Coast League last year was 2nd in the league, 1 behind a guy two years older on the Yankees and 2 ahead of anyone else. That is a league where only 10 players hit more than 3 home runs and only 3 hit more than 4.

__________________
“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/054.gif

Last edited by Big McLargehuge: 08-28-2013 at 12:15 PM.
Big McLargehuge is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 12:33 PM
  #385
Bob Richards
Global Moderator
Mr. Mojo Risin'
 
Bob Richards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 45,683
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Good job by the Mets, just giving players to another team.

What a ****ing joke. What a ****ing joke.
It's Marlon Byrd and John friggin' Buck. Relax lol. They are 35 and 33 years old respectively.

__________________
"New day, new hope. Richards Buyout 2014". -Ail
Bob Richards is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #386
xander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Section A Lynah Rink
Posts: 4,081
vCash: 500
Also a note: I don't know how much other folks here follow baseball prospects. I will admit that baseball is actually my favorite sport (baseball is 1a, hockey is 1b, and I don't follow anything else), and I keep a much closer eye on baseball prospects than I do on hockey. That doesn't doesn't mean I know anything - I don't see much minor league ball outside of brooklyn, which is not exactly a bastion of blue chippers most years - just that I am more fluent in how the system works in baseball. As such, I don't say much anymore about hockey prospects, as I only see the guys in he AHL (thanks hockeyhockeystreams), and only keep tabs on Ranger prospects. The point is that if you're big into hockey prospecting, but don't pay too much attention to baseball, be careful. The baseball development system is even more complex than it is in hockey (there are literally differant systems for talent aquistion based on player origin, and you're dealing with guys coming into pro ball at anywhere between age 16 and 22, and of course therw a million differant leagues and levels of the minors), and you have to really keep on top of your stuff to have any idea what is going on in the world of hockey prospects. You know how annoying it is when another team's fan comes in to our prospect thread and questions a guy that they never follow based on stats? or when casual hockey fans try and extrapolate NHL performance based soley off minor league production? Don't be that guy.

Apologies if that was patronizing - I expect that it was - but context is important.

xander is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 01:46 PM
  #387
Fire Sather
Play Like a Pug
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 19,171
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
If you want to say you're ok with trading Byrd and Buck for a crapshoot prospect and hope to get lucky, I can at least see that.

But to argue that this guy is actually a good prospect, I really find it hard to believe.

Yeah I've read the articles. Might have 15-20 HR pop etc etc. Stuff like that is said about almost any prospect. He isn't someone to get excited about. Long shot prospect.

Or maybe I'm wrong and this guy is another Jeff Kent. We'll see I guess.

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 01:50 PM
  #388
xander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Section A Lynah Rink
Posts: 4,081
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
If you want to say you're ok with trading Byrd and Buck for a crapshoot prospect and hope to get lucky, I can at least see that.
Well yeah, that is the whole point; he doesn't have to be a sure thing, he just has to provide more value beyond this year than either Byrd or Buck would, which he does because he we at least be property of the NYMets in the middle of October, neither of those guys would have been. If I offered you a lottery ticket for a mediocre sandwich that you didn't want any more of, wouldn't you take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
But to argue that this guy is actually a good prospect, I really find it hard to believe.

Yeah I've read the articles. Might have 15-20 HR pop etc etc. Stuff like that is said about almost any prospect. He isn't someone to get excited about. Long shot prospect.

Or maybe I'm wrong and this guy is another Jeff Kent. We'll see I guess.
Depends what you mean by good prospect. He was highly regarded enough to make it into the top 10 of one of the 3 or 4 strongest systems in baseball. That does not mean that he will amount to anything, most 19 year olds don't, but he has a chance to if it all works out. That is all you want out of a-ball guys, a chance. None of them are sure things, you just want as many lottery tickets in your hand as possible.

xander is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 03:23 PM
  #389
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 18,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
If you want to say you're ok with trading Byrd and Buck for a crapshoot prospect and hope to get lucky, I can at least see that.

But to argue that this guy is actually a good prospect, I really find it hard to believe.

Yeah I've read the articles. Might have 15-20 HR pop etc etc. Stuff like that is said about almost any prospect. He isn't someone to get excited about. Long shot prospect.

Or maybe I'm wrong and this guy is another Jeff Kent. We'll see I guess.
He doesn't have to be Jeff Kent for this to be a good trade. We got massive surplus value from Byrd and now he gets to contribute to a playoff team, and Buck is subpar. Herrera is young for his league and is doing very well. This is a classic both sides win trade with no way this can blow up in Sandy's face.

Quote:
If I offered you a lottery ticket for a mediocre sandwich that you didn't want any more of, wouldn't you take it?
Depends what's on the sandwich and if it's a Powerball ticket.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 03:27 PM
  #390
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 18,688
vCash: 500
Also, great to see Niese have 3 fantastic starts since coming back. People were sleeping on him after a bad season, but now that he's (hopefully) healed up he's showing that he absolutely is a part of this rotation moving forward.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 03:29 PM
  #391
Fire Sather
Play Like a Pug
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 19,171
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Also, great to see Niese have 3 fantastic starts since coming back. People were sleeping on him after a bad season, but now that he's (hopefully) healed up he's showing that he absolutely is a part of this rotation moving forward.
Niese gets hurt literally every season.

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 03:31 PM
  #392
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 18,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Niese gets hurt literally every season.
Usually nothing as serious as what he had to deal with this year, though. If he can pitch the 190 innings he did last year consistently, he's a fantastic #3 for a contending Mets team.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #393
Fire Sather
Play Like a Pug
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 19,171
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Usually nothing as serious as what he had to deal with this year, though. If he can pitch the 190 innings he did last year consistently, he's a fantastic #3 for a contending Mets team.
Agreed, just would like to see him go a couple seasons without a DL stay.

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 04:47 PM
  #394
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,802
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
But to argue that this guy is actually a good prospect, I really find it hard to believe.
You're already contradicting yourself. You said the Mets gave Byrd and Buck away. Now you don't like the quality of prospect they got back. A 19 year old kid with purported good athleticism who participated in the Future Stars game. What did you think you were going to get back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Yeah I've read the articles. Might have 15-20 HR pop etc etc. Stuff like that is said about almost any prospect. He isn't someone to get excited about. Long shot prospect.
Now you're just making things up. Lots of posters have told what there is to like about this guy. Your response was he has no pop — which was also rebuked. Now he "isn't someone to get excited about". Based on what exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Or maybe I'm wrong and this guy is another Jeff Kent. We'll see I guess.

So unless he becomes a Hall of Famer, its a bad trade?


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 08-28-2013 at 04:55 PM.
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 07:40 PM
  #395
Big McLargehuge
Moderator
Buff Drinklots
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Germany
Posts: 53,985
vCash: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
If you want to say you're ok with trading Byrd and Buck for a crapshoot prospect and hope to get lucky, I can at least see that.

But to argue that this guy is actually a good prospect, I really find it hard to believe.

Yeah I've read the articles. Might have 15-20 HR pop etc etc. Stuff like that is said about almost any prospect. He isn't someone to get excited about. Long shot prospect.

Or maybe I'm wrong and this guy is another Jeff Kent. We'll see I guess.
I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Mets should get a Jeff Kent for two mid-30s journeymen who are approaching free agency and weren't going to be re-signed? You traded Marlon Byrd, not Matt Harvey.

Herrera was a top 10-12 prospect in the 3rd or 4th best system in baseball, and a riser at that and you get our best relief prospect in Vic Black who is Major League ready today (who has averaged 12.5 K/9 in the past two minor league seasons) and has hit triple-digits on the minor league radar guns.

The Mets got an absurd return for a couple of short-term rentals that weren't in the organization 12 months ago and wouldn't be in 2 months, and I'm quite obviously not a Mets fan.

I do not understand your negativity to this trade at all. This is amazing asset management by the Mets.

Big McLargehuge is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 07:49 PM
  #396
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Mets should get a Jeff Kent for two mid-30s journeymen who are approaching free agency and weren't going to be re-signed? You traded Marlon Byrd, not Matt Harvey.

Herrera was a top 10-12 prospect in the 3rd or 4th best system in baseball, and a riser at that and you get our best relief prospect in Vic Black who is Major League ready today (who has averaged 12.5 K/9 in the past two minor league seasons) and has hit triple-digits on the minor league radar guns.

The Mets got an absurd return for a couple of short-term rentals that weren't in the organization 12 months ago and wouldn't be in 2 months, and I'm quite obviously not a Mets fan.

I do not understand your negativity to this trade at all. This is amazing asset management by the Mets.
The kent thing was because of me. I was just musing that we also traded David Cone away on the same date for Jeff Kent, and that Herrera has put up better numbers at a much younger age than Kent. I don't quite remember if Kent was a big name prospect at the time but he was a rookie for toronto at the time of the trade. Anyway they are different type of players. The whole point was that low A power numbers dont mean all that much. My bad.

Has the Vic Black been confirmed yet?

I agree that this was awesome asset management.

DontStepanMe is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 07:54 PM
  #397
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,802
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post

Has the Vic Black been confirmed yet?
Yes. But he needs to clear waivers. If he's claimed the Pirates can pull him back and then send him to the Mets when the season is over.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
08-28-2013, 08:06 PM
  #398
Big McLargehuge
Moderator
Buff Drinklots
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Germany
Posts: 53,985
vCash: 422
Black probably was already subject to waivers and re-called, otherwise he would have been included outright. The deal will be made official early in the off-season.

It'll be interesting to see what the Pirates do with Black as he's still Pirates property until the deal is official. He was a shoe-in to be a September call-up, but now maybe he'll be left in Indianapolis to help with their playoff run. Either way he'll be in the Mets bullpen on Opening Day next year, which neither Byrd nor Buck would have been.

Big McLargehuge is offline  
Old
08-29-2013, 01:19 AM
  #399
darko
Registered User
 
darko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Country: Australia
Posts: 30,117
vCash: 500
Last season 12 2nd baggers had 15 home runs or more. He's a threat on the base paths too. Long way to go but 15-15 type 2B is quite a handy player. If Black turns into a solid reliever that's quite a haul for 2 guys who weren't in long term plans and were going to leave via free agency after this season.

No one here is saying that Herrera is going to be a good player. He's 19 after all and has long ways to go. However he is a prospect with a good upside.

darko is offline  
Old
08-29-2013, 12:10 PM
  #400
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
offdacrossbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: da cuse
Country: Tuvalu
Posts: 8,091
vCash: 500
hard to be unhappy with this deal in any way

lets be honest, buck was gone anyway. he had an epic start to his met career but d'rno is here now.

byrd played out of his mind for us but again, not in our future plans and we werent winning this year anyway.

we get a young talented if prospect that addresses an organizational need. and the kid can hit too boot.

and in black we get another guy who throws hard.

i call this a great sandy deal.

offdacrossbar is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.