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08-29-2013, 08:17 AM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Yes, the motivation in that deal is to get rid of him which I'm perfectly fine with.

We don't need him and from what I see from other fanbases, he's not what they want to build a winning team with (playing in the top 6) and he's too expensive for a bottom 6.

Stop thinking that him getting 55 pts in the greatest thing in the world. Eller can easily get that production with the progression he had last year. Give him PP times and quality wingers, Eller will provide as much offense as DD and Eller is much more harder to play against.

Any contender teams wouldn't want DD as a top 2 center in the next 4 years but here, he's a great because maybe he can probably get us 55 pts in the regular season and be irrelevant in the playoffs.
Then why not just offer him for a 7th rounder instead and be clear about your true intentions?

Full disclosure : I'm perfectly fine with the idea of trading DD. Just for something that actually makes sense. Not for "!$)/*% Matt Stajan, a guy who has bust all over and for a guy whose main quality, according to the proposal, is that he's from Montreal. Not that Culkin isn't interesting, it's just that if we're to target a D, there are some who are quite a bit more interesting than he is.

Like, Klesla, which has been mentionned quite a few times in DD proposals.

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08-29-2013, 08:37 AM
  #702
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Then why not just offer him for a 7th rounder instead and be clear about your true intentions?

Full disclosure : I'm perfectly fine with the idea of trading DD. Just for something that actually makes sense. Not for "!$)/*% Matt Stajan, a guy who has bust all over and for a guy whose main quality, according to the proposal, is that he's from Montreal.
Whatever "bust" means when you're talking about a 29 year old veteran... Bro, Matt Stajan is a much better 2-way hockey player than Desharnais. If we're rocking into the season with Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Eller, and Briere as potential top 6 centremen, I'd rather have Stajan (who killed the most penalties of any Calgary forward last year, and ended up with the highest +/- on the team; one of only two Flames who were positive overall) plugged into the bottom 6 if I'm going to have to pay $3.5 million for the guy either way. Plus, this is the last year of Stajan's contract, offering increased flexibility after this transition year.

I mean, I'd do the move (but wouldn't go out of my way to make it happen), but I'd admit that it's sort of a lateral slide, getting more defensive ability back than the offensive ability we'd be giving up.

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08-29-2013, 08:57 AM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Whatever "bust" means when you're talking about a 29 year old veteran... Bro, Matt Stajan is a much better 2-way hockey player than Desharnais.
Didn't know Greg Nemisz was named Matt Stajan, and didn't know he was a 29 years old player either.

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08-29-2013, 09:05 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Didn't know Greg Nemisz was named Matt Stajan, and didn't know he was a 29 years old player either.
lolwut?

I think you got lost somewhere. Here's a link to Calgary's 2012/13 stats to help you out.

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08-29-2013, 09:15 AM
  #705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Whatever "bust" means when you're talking about a 29 year old veteran... Bro, Matt Stajan is a much better 2-way hockey player than Desharnais. If we're rocking into the season with Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Eller, and Briere as potential top 6 centremen, I'd rather have Stajan (who killed the most penalties of any Calgary forward last year, and ended up with the highest +/- on the team; one of only two Flames who were positive overall) plugged into the bottom 6 if I'm going to have to pay $3.5 million for the guy either way. Plus, this is the last year of Stajan's contract, offering increased flexibility after this transition year.

I mean, I'd do the move (but wouldn't go out of my way to make it happen), but I'd admit that it's sort of a lateral slide, getting more defensive ability back than the offensive ability we'd be giving up.
Desharnais makes a lot more sense with our group of centers than Stajan. Plekanec and Eller can both play tough matchups as should the Moen-Prust-White/Parros/Dumont line. It's better to have Desharnais producing 55-60 points on an offensive line then Stajan bringing 40 and being slightly better defensively.

We already have Desharnais' replacement in house, just a matter of letting him grow/develop while letting DD increase his trade value with more points plus a higher cap. It would be dumb to alter that plan for a worse one.

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08-29-2013, 09:17 AM
  #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
lolwut?

I think you got lost somewhere. Here's a link to Calgary's 2012/13 stats to help you out.
I think YOU got lost in syntax naziism.

Here's my original post :

Quote:
Full disclosure : I'm perfectly fine with the idea of trading DD. Just for something that actually makes sense. Not for "!$)/*% Matt Stajan, a guy who has bust all over and for a guy whose main quality, according to the proposal, is that he's from Montreal.
In regards to a trade being : DD for Stajan, Nemisz and Culkin.

Now...

I'll make it clearer for you, as seem really on a mission lately :

Quote:
Full disclosure : I'm perfectly fine with the idea of trading DD. Just for something that actually makes sense. Not for "!$)/*% Matt Stajan, a guy who has bust all over and for a guy whose main quality, according to the proposal, is that he's from Montreal.
Is that any clearer?

Yeah, My post should've looked like this :

Quote:
Full disclosure : I'm perfectly fine with the idea of trading DD. Just for something that actually makes sense. Not for "!$)/*% Matt Stajan, for a guy who has bust all over and for a guy whose main quality, according to the proposal, is that he's from Montreal.
But it appears I forgot one "for" (before Nemisz's description), or that I had one too much (before Culkin's description). That happens. I just don't think that's a good reason to try to make me look like an idiot.

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08-29-2013, 09:20 AM
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Desharnais makes a lot more sense with our group of centers than Stajan. Plekanec and Eller can both play tough matchups as should the Moen-Prust-White/Parros/Dumont line. It's better to have Desharnais producing 55-60 points on an offensive line then Stajan bringing 40 and being slightly better defensively.

We already have Desharnais' replacement in house, just a matter of letting him grow/develop while letting DD increase his trade value with more points plus a higher cap. It would be dumb to alter that plan for a worse one.
I like this fantasy where we start off with the assumption that a bottom-6 centre is good for 55-60 points (let alone a player who has done that once in his career)...

More points might convince your Xbox that he's worth more in a trade, but I think the market has already spoken on the value of bigger 2-way guys versus smaller players who are highly reliant on their linemates for production.

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08-29-2013, 09:22 AM
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I think YOU got lost in syntax naziism.

Here's my original post :



In regards to a trade being : DD for Stajan, Nemisz and Culkin.

Now...

I'll make it clearer for you, as seem really on a mission lately :



Is that any clearer?

Yeah, My post should've looked like this :



But it appears I forgot one "for" (before Nemisz's description), or that I had one too much (before Culkin's description). That happens. I just don't think that's a good reason to try to make me look like an idiot.
And I'll make it clearer for you: Stajan for DD is a good enough trade on its own, imo, and it doesn't even matter if Nemisz and Culkin come as well or not. I did misunderstand who/what you were trying to talk about there, but it wasn't because you forgot a 'for', or whatever. I simply missed that you were talking about three different people, which is my bad.

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08-29-2013, 09:25 AM
  #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And I'll make it clearer for you: Stajan for DD is a good enough trade on its own, imo, and it doesn't even matter if Nemisz and Culkin come as well or not.
I'll make it even clearer.
No, it's not, unless you're a believer in the "sell low, buy high" motto.

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08-29-2013, 09:28 AM
  #710
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'll make it even clearer.
No, it's not, unless you're a believer in the "sell low, buy high" motto.
It certainly is if you're a believer in the "make your team better" motto.

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08-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I like this fantasy where we start off with the assumption that a bottom-6 centre is good for 55-60 points (let alone a player who has done that once in his career)...

More points might convince your Xbox that he's worth more in a trade, but I think the market has already spoken on the value of bigger 2-way guys versus smaller players who are highly reliant on their linemates for production.
What bottom 6 center are you talking about? DD has played #2 minutes the last 2 seasons and his production is among the top 30 centers the last 2 years in terms of points(88 points). His pace projects to 56 points...yet in your warped world 55-60 points is not realistic despite being his pace since becoming an NHL regular.

Brilliant!

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08-29-2013, 09:34 AM
  #712
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I will admit that with the signing of Murray, I'm even more tempted by the proposal of Troy Brouwer for Josh Gorges...

As for the Stajan proposal, I would consider it if Stajan was good of faceoffs, but he's terrible at it. I'd rather keep Desharnais.

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08-29-2013, 09:35 AM
  #713
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
It certainly is if you're a believer in the "make your team better" motto.
No, it's not. The team don't need another center to play on the penalty killing, with Plekanec, Eller and White (and possibly Dumont) already doing this, Stajan isn't an improvement over DD as far as faceoffs or offence is concerned, and besides, the team could use another winger, not another center, so Daniel Briere could actually play in his position (!$")*%"*%$"*%"$)/ Briere).

Hence why trading for Stajan would be idiot.


Last edited by MXD: 08-29-2013 at 09:41 AM.
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08-29-2013, 09:39 AM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
What bottom 6 center are you talking about? DD has played #2 minutes the last 2 seasons and his production is among the top 30 centers the last 2 years in terms of points(88 points). His pace projects to 56 points...yet in your warped world 55-60 points is not realistic despite being his pace since becoming an NHL regular.

Brilliant!
So you're going on record predicting that DD spends more time at centre than Plekanec and Eller this year? Bold.

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08-29-2013, 09:40 AM
  #715
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And I'll make it clearer for you: Stajan for DD is a good enough trade on its own, imo, and it doesn't even matter if Nemisz and Culkin come as well or not. I did misunderstand who/what you were trying to talk about there, but it wasn't because you forgot a 'for', or whatever. I simply missed that you were talking about three different people, which is my bad.
That's downright comical. It's an "even" trade with similar(3.5 mil) cap hits yet Stajan has stunk the last 2 years(41 points in 104 games,32 point pace...0.39 PPGM) and Desharnais has been very productive(88 points in 129, 56 point pace...0.68PPGM)
. Nemisz is a bust, he stunk out the AHL last year and will be available for free on waivers. Culkin is a decent prospect but we already have a ton of PMD's so he adds nothing we need. The kicker is DD has a 4 year deal and will have trade value next summer, while Stajan will be a UFa who looks to latch on somewhere on a 1 way deal for very little.

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08-29-2013, 09:46 AM
  #716
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
No, it's not. The team don't need another center to play on the penalty killing, with Plekanec, Eller and White (and possibly Dumont) already doing this, Stajan isn't an improvement over DD as far as faceoffs or offence is concerned, and besides, the team could use another winger, not another center, so Daniel Briere could actually play in his position (!$")*%"*%$"*%"$)/ Briere).

Hence why trading for Stajan would be idiot.
Even though this is typed on this same page just minutes earlier, I'll cut and paste it for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu
I mean, I'd do the move (but wouldn't go out of my way to make it happen), but I'd admit that it's sort of a lateral slide, getting more defensive ability back than the offensive ability we'd be giving up.
I'd also be more willing to convert Stajan to the wing than Desharnais, and that's also one of the possible roads that the Habs are going to have to take. I think Stajan makes the team better and gives Therrien more flexibility/options when constructing 4 lines, but I don't really care about Stajan. He's just another example of a player I'd rather see out there instead of Desharnais.

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08-29-2013, 09:47 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So you're going on record predicting that DD spends more time at centre than Plekanec and Eller this year? Bold.
More than Eller, less than Plekanec (disregarding any potential injuries).

Mind you, I won't agree with it, but he will.

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08-29-2013, 09:49 AM
  #718
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Even though this is typed on this same page just minutes earlier, I'll cut and paste it for you:



I'd also be more willing to convert Stajan to the wing than Desharnais, and that's also one of the possible roads that the Habs are going to have to take. I think Stajan makes the team better and gives Therrien more flexibility/options when constructing 4 lines, but I don't really care about Stajan. He's just another example of a player I'd rather see out there instead of Desharnais.
You said you will. I said I won't. I hardly see ANY similarities, you keying on your personnal hate, me keying on not getting a player for which we don't really have any use.

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08-29-2013, 09:50 AM
  #719
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So you're going on record predicting that DD spends more time at centre than Plekanec and Eller this year? Bold.
Less than Plekanec but more than Eller. I think you'll see Eller's minutes up by 60-90 sec per game with more PP and PK time. Maybe cut into Plekanec's "tough minutes/faceoffs" if he keeps progressing.

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08-29-2013, 09:58 AM
  #720
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That's downright comical. It's an "even" trade with similar(3.5 mil) cap hits yet Stajan has stunk the last 2 years(41 points in 104 games,32 point pace...0.39 PPGM) and Desharnais has been very productive(88 points in 129, 56 point pace...0.68PPGM)
. Nemisz is a bust, he stunk out the AHL last year and will be available for free on waivers. Culkin is a decent prospect but we already have a ton of PMD's so he adds nothing we need. The kicker is DD has a 4 year deal and will have trade value next summer, while Stajan will be a UFa who looks to latch on somewhere on a 1 way deal for very little.
Yes, yes, keep going on about Desharnais' points; the vast majority of which come from a single season in the best scoring environment the team could have possibly afforded him. Don't know how much you saw of Calgary last year (we can make as much of Stajan's first years on garbage Flames teams as you like) but Stajan - even on a much worse team - looked like a better hockey player than Desharnais to me... easily.

And again, I don't care what other bums you throw into the mix, Stajan for Desharnais straight up would get the deal done for me.

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08-29-2013, 10:01 AM
  #721
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You said you will. I said I won't. I hardly see ANY similarities, you keying on your personnal hate, me keying on not getting a player for which we don't really have any use.
We already have them: Desharnais and Briere. While admittedly a lateral move, I'd still do it if offered by Calgary.

And I don't hate Desharnais. I simply don't think he's a good enough hockey player; certainly not worth investing in as much as the team has, imo.

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08-29-2013, 10:01 AM
  #722
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Yes, yes, keep going on about Desharnais' points; the vast majority of which come from a single season in the best scoring environment the team could have possibly afforded him. Don't know how much you saw of Calgary last year (we can make as much of Stajan's first years on garbage Flames teams as you like) but Stajan - even on a much worse team - looked like a better hockey player than Desharnais to me... easily.

And again, I don't care what other bums you throw into the mix, Stajan for Desharnais straight up would get the deal done for me.
Evidence # 34298 of agenda : From which seasons his points could have came from??!?!?!?!

His other full 82-game seasons he never played?

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08-29-2013, 10:04 AM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post

And I don't hate Desharnais. I simply don't think he's a good enough hockey player; certainly not worth investing in as much as the team has, imo.
Investing Desharnais in Stajan is way too much, and saying you don't hate Desharnais is downright comical considering your last 20 posts.

If getting points was so easy, one would think Keith Aucoin would have had more success in the NHL, no?

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08-29-2013, 10:22 AM
  #724
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Investing Desharnais in Stajan is way too much, and saying you don't hate Desharnais is downright comical considering your last 20 posts.
If people would stop penciling him into our top 6 as if it's a good idea, defending his level of play/effectiveness with tunnel vision on stats, making some of the excuses to keep him that we see, or comparing him overly favourably against better players around the league (imo, of course) you'd hear a lot less from me on the subject of Desharnais.

Quote:
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If getting points was so easy, one would think Keith Aucoin would have had more success in the NHL, no?
I'm always a big fan of a poorly constructed strawman. Hey, Keith Aucoin has stuck around until his mid-30s despite never having played on a team desperate enough to load him into the top 6. Here's hoping Desharnais can do the same now that the Habs aren't in as dire of straits as they seemingly were in '11/12.

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08-29-2013, 10:26 AM
  #725
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Evidence # 34298 of agenda : From which seasons his points could have came from??!?!?!?!

His other full 82-game seasons he never played?
Well, last year, on a crap Calgary team, Stajan got 23 points in 43 games while playing pretty solid (if still mildly underwhelming) 2-way play. That doesn't seem far off 28 points in 48 games and questionable defense on a division leader. So yeah, it's just '11/12 in a super scoring-conducive role that is balancing this little stats expose so strongly in Desharnais' favour.

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