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Forsberg vs Crosby

View Poll Results: Forsberg vs Crosby. Who was better?
Forsberg 78 40.21%
Crosby 116 59.79%
Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-27-2013, 09:40 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
My mistake. Bondra was an impressive goalscorer and had som really good seasons. My point was that more goals scored doesnīt mean better player. For example: in Bondras 94/95 Richard-winning (letīs call it that, even if before the Richard...) season there could be made an good argument that he wasnīt even one of the top 40 players that year. Heck, there could be good arguments that he was "only" the third most important player on that Caps team. Goals are often, in my opionion, overvalued when discussing players overall play. Probably because itīs one of the "easiest" stats to look at.

The point was that saying "Forsberg has only scored 30 goals in a season..." ainīt a good argument here. There are good arguments for Crosby, but that ainīt one.
Yes, it's a good argument. Because when you compare players, one who peaked at 30 (literally) and other for whom 30 is a norm, then yes, it's helluva good argument, I would say, it's argument which more than easy washes the gap in defensive play.

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08-27-2013, 09:53 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Average scoring over 82 game season in '95/96: 258 goals


I'm sorry, but if you already knew that 1995-96 was a high-scoring season, then why exactly were you trying to pass off a decline in Forsberg's APG from 1996 (4th) to 1997 (3rd) as a counter-argument to Crosby's loss of a pace of 16 Assists Per 82 Games from 2009 (2nd) to 2010 (13th)? Crosby fell 11 places on the APG leaderboards behind guys like Alex Ovechkin, Mike Green, Paul Stastny, and Daniel Alfredsson; Forsberg moved up a spot, because everyone else's numbers from 1996 to 1997 went down too.

That's some willful ignorance.

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08-27-2013, 10:31 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post


I'm sorry, but if you already knew that 1995-96 was a high-scoring season, then why exactly were you trying to pass off a decline in Forsberg's APG from 1996 (4th) to 1997 (3rd) as a counter-argument to Crosby's loss of a pace of 16 Assists Per 82 Games from 2009 (2nd) to 2010 (13th)? Crosby fell 11 places on the APG leaderboards behind guys like Alex Ovechkin, Mike Green, Paul Stastny, and Daniel Alfredsson; Forsberg moved up a spot, because everyone else's numbers from 1996 to 1997 went down too.

That's some willful ignorance.
Because the trend observed is still that Forsberg scored at a higher rate (despite the lower league scoring) and assisted at a much lower rate - same trend displayed by Crosby (which I believe you claimed is something that couldn't be found on Forsberg's record - "saw a decline in Assists-Per-Game for Crosby that Forsberg didn't have in his nine-season prime" is the direct quote, I believe) - and yet one guy "sacrificed playmaking" to score more goals while the other guy didn't? And the evidence of that is their position in a league-wide top 10 rate list? You didn't even mention top 10 lists in the post I originally responded to. Maybe Forsberg would have been 1st in APG if he wasn't so busy trying to score more goals in '96/97?

And furthermore, did league scoring not ALSO go down from '08/09 (Crosby's 103 pts via 70 assists) to '09/10 (Crosby's 109 pts via 51 goals)? Willful ignorance all around!

As an unrelated aside, you also claimed earlier that Forsberg was top 5 in GPG once, and I was just wondering if you could tell us exactly when that was, because for me he loses the 5 way tie for 4th by virtue of playing far less games than Elias, Havlat or St. Louis in '03/04 (I think most people would have done a sort of players who had at least played half the season, but slick work using GP>=25 instead of 41).

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
How many people saying that it's not close know that Forsberg finished top-five in Goals-Per-Game once? Or that he was top-five in Assists-Per-Game in every season he played from 1995-96 to 2005-06? Or that he averaged a 35-goal pace in the playoffs?


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 08-27-2013 at 10:50 AM.
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08-27-2013, 10:44 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
I'm with you, I don't care if a player picks up a lot of goals or a lot of assists. But Crosby scoring 50 goals and winning the Richard does show that he can adapt his game and that he has the ability to score a ton of goals or a ton of assists. I think it is a benefit to Crosby's resume that he has proven that.
I would agree with that. I just feel that the Rocket Richard season makes people lose sight of the fact that both Crosby and Forsberg have ONE year (41 games for Crosby in 2011; 39 games for Forsberg in 2004) in which they were scoring at a top-five or a top-ten pace in both Goals and Assists.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...goals_per_game


And I also don't think it's fair to Forsberg to say that he can't adapt to goal-scoring, based on the evidence of the playoffs, where Forsberg scored at higher rates than the 30-goal sound-bite. You seemed to argue that because Forsberg had some playoff series that were slightly below a point-per-game that those were bad series. Given the fact that only nine players in the DPE managed to keep their cumulative PPG at or above 1 after playing more than one series (compared to 16 or so players post-lockout), I'm not sure a five-point seven-game-series against President's Trophy winning Dallas is on par with Crosby being shutdown by a Montreal or a Boston, or losing composure against a Philadelphia or a Detroit.

Playoff scoring expectations were different in the DPE. Forsberg's 2002 run of 27 points was the highest point total recorded from 1997-2004. Eight different runs from 2006-2013 have matched or exceeded that number, and likely from a willingness by the officials to call more penalties, hence less clutch-and-grab and greater punishment for the clutch-and-grab that did occur.

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08-27-2013, 11:35 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And I also don't think it's fair to Forsberg to say that he can't adapt to goal-scoring, based on the evidence of the playoffs, where Forsberg scored at higher rates than the 30-goal sound-bite.
I never said he couldn't, he certainly did in the post-season.

Quote:
You seemed to argue that because Forsberg had some playoff series that were slightly below a point-per-game that those were bad series. Given the fact that only nine players in the DPE managed to keep their cumulative PPG at or above 1 after playing more than one series (compared to 16 or so players post-lockout), I'm not sure a five-point seven-game-series against President's Trophy winning Dallas is on par with Crosby being shutdown by a Montreal or a Boston, or losing composure against a Philadelphia or a Detroit
Forsberg did have some disappointing series'. Whether they are as bad as Crosby's worst or not. Forsberg had series' with 1 assist and no goals against Detroit in 5 games, 2 points in 6 games against Chicago and 3 points in 6 games against San Jose.

I also find it hard to see how you can use Crosby's series against Philly as an example of him playing poorly, he may have been the best player on his team in the series and registered 8 points in 6 games, even if he got into scrums after the whistle.

I can see how someone can give Forsberg the edge in the playoffs, but to argue he has never been shut down or never had poor series' is wrong.

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08-27-2013, 12:58 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I would agree with that. I just feel that the Rocket Richard season makes people lose sight of the fact that both Crosby and Forsberg have ONE year (41 games for Crosby in 2011; 39 games for Forsberg in 2004) in which they were scoring at a top-five or a top-ten pace in both Goals and Assists.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...goals_per_game


And I also don't think it's fair to Forsberg to say that he can't adapt to goal-scoring, based on the evidence of the playoffs, where Forsberg scored at higher rates than the 30-goal sound-bite. You seemed to argue that because Forsberg had some playoff series that were slightly below a point-per-game that those were bad series. Given the fact that only nine players in the DPE managed to keep their cumulative PPG at or above 1 after playing more than one series (compared to 16 or so players post-lockout), I'm not sure a five-point seven-game-series against President's Trophy winning Dallas is on par with Crosby being shutdown by a Montreal or a Boston, or losing composure against a Philadelphia or a Detroit.

Playoff scoring expectations were different in the DPE. Forsberg's 2002 run of 27 points was the highest point total recorded from 1997-2004. Eight different runs from 2006-2013 have matched or exceeded that number, and likely from a willingness by the officials to call more penalties, hence less clutch-and-grab and greater punishment for the clutch-and-grab that did occur.
...and that was only in 3 rounds. I don't think a lot of people realize how tough it was to score in the playoffs in the dead puck era. Forsberg was scoring at a 35+ goal pace most of his runs while avg. gpg was somewhere between 4 and 5.

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08-27-2013, 06:12 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Forsberg's 2002 run of 27 points was the highest point total recorded from 1997-2004.
Which was actually "only" good enough for 5th best PPG over that 7 year stretch (which is still pretty good). Lindros' 26 pts in 19 games, Sakic's 25 pts in 17 games, etc.

Bringing it back to the Crosby/Forsberg comparison, is 27 points in 20 playoff games after a regular season where every team averaged 215 goals (Forsberg '02) actually that much more impressive than 27 points in 20 playoff games after a regular season where every team averaged 228 goals (Crosby '08)? I don't even think it's either guy's best post season.

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08-27-2013, 07:35 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Forsberg had series' with 1 assist and no goals against Detroit in 5 games
That was the series he was playing immediately after getting two concussions.


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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Bringing it back to the Crosby/Forsberg comparison, is 27 points in 20 playoff games after a regular season where every team averaged 215 goals (Forsberg '02) actually that much more impressive than 27 points in 20 playoff games after a regular season where every team averaged 228 goals (Crosby '08)? I don't even think it's either guy's best post season.
Did you see the teams Forsberg was shooting on?

2002
Los Angeles - 190 GA
San Jose - 199 GA
Detroit - 187 GA

2008
Ottawa - 247 GA
New York - 199 GA
Philadelphia - 233 GA
Detroit - 184 GA

2009
Philadelphia - 238 GA
Washington - 245 GA
Carolina - 226 GA
Detroit - 244 GA

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08-27-2013, 10:49 PM
  #284
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Good lord, you don't honestly believe that, do you?


And yes, he was shut out in Game 6 and 7 against a team who finished 17 points higher in the standings. The entire Colorado Avalanche were shut out. But considering the fact that he scored eight points in the four games preceding that, he did pretty well for himself in that series, didn't he? Then again, Evgeni Malkin provided 8 points of support against the Red Wings while Sakic only provided 5 points, so maybe that's the reason Crosby with 3 points was a series winner, eh?

Absolutely rubbish argument.
Not rubbish at all. For starters, Crosby had more points (28) through three victorious rounds in 2009 than Forsberg did (27) in a losing cause in the semis. Crosby then played pretty good in the final, but was smothered and held to just 3 points. You can argue that Crosby in the first three rounds beats Forsberg in his first three. He outpoints him. His best series he had 13 points to Forsberg's 12. In the semis he had 7 points in 4 games. In Game 6 and 7 vs. Detroit in 2002 Forsberg was not only shutout but had one total shot on net in the two games. I'm lost, how was Forsberg's best playoff run better?

Also, in 2008 Crosby carried the Pens despite Malkin laying an egg in the final. Crosby had 27 points, equalling the most Forsberg did. However, he got his team into the final, played pretty good in the final and actually had a decent last second scoring chance against Osgood. If I am picking who has had the best runs I am picking Crosby and I fail to see otherwise.

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08-28-2013, 12:14 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Not rubbish at all. For starters, Crosby had more points (28) through three victorious rounds in 2009 than Forsberg did (27) in a losing cause in the semis. Crosby then played pretty good in the final, but was smothered and held to just 3 points. You can argue that Crosby in the first three rounds beats Forsberg in his first three. He outpoints him. His best series he had 13 points to Forsberg's 12. In the semis he had 7 points in 4 games. In Game 6 and 7 vs. Detroit in 2002 Forsberg was not only shutout but had one total shot on net in the two games. I'm lost, how was Forsberg's best playoff run better?

Also, in 2008 Crosby carried the Pens despite Malkin laying an egg in the final. Crosby had 27 points, equalling the most Forsberg did. However, he got his team into the final, played pretty good in the final and actually had a decent last second scoring chance against Osgood. If I am picking who has had the best runs I am picking Crosby and I fail to see otherwise.
Once again, you fail to notice a disparity in quality of competition, even when it's posted on this page. 13 points for Crosby against the 20th ranked defensive team or 12 points for Forsberg against the 9th ranked defensive team.

Siding with the "winner" as usual? There's another 17 skaters and 2 goalies, you know...

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08-28-2013, 01:17 AM
  #286
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Crosby AINEC

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08-28-2013, 01:30 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Once again, you fail to notice a disparity in quality of competition, even when it's posted on this page. 13 points for Crosby against the 20th ranked defensive team or 12 points for Forsberg against the 9th ranked defensive team.

Siding with the "winner" as usual? There's another 17 skaters and 2 goalies, you know...
And exactly how much harder/easier does it get to score on a 9th ranked defense vs a 20th ranked defense depending on how much more/less help you get from teammates and how much more/less one team focuses on you specifically as an opposing star player?

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08-28-2013, 01:58 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And exactly how much harder/easier does it get to score on a 9th ranked defense vs a 20th ranked defense depending on how much more/less help you get from teammates and how much more/less one team focuses on you specifically as an opposing star player?
Your either deliberately confusing the issues or being far to "wordy". Might wanna clarify that because even I dont understand what your saying and believe me, hugely abstract.

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08-28-2013, 03:04 AM
  #289
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Your either deliberately confusing the issues or being far to "wordy". Might wanna clarify that because even I dont understand what your saying and believe me, hugely abstract.
Not that I blame you for finding it hard to keep up... At this point on the qpq discussion loop line express, we're going around in circles now about the relative impact on these guys' stats by scoring environment, line/teammates, and quality of opposition; basically exhausting the whole list until we find some way of painting something statistically as a clear advantage for Forsberg. It's proving tough.

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08-28-2013, 07:20 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not that I blame you for finding it hard to keep up... At this point on the qpq discussion loop line express, we're going around in circles now about the relative impact on these guys' stats by scoring environment, line/teammates, and quality of opposition; basically exhausting the whole list until we find some way of painting something statistically as a clear advantage for Forsberg. It's proving tough.
Really? Because he straight-up had a better points-per-game in 2002 than Crosby did in 2009 and the same points-per-game as Crosby did in 2008 (Ottawa and Philadelphia being SIGNIFICANTLY worse defensively than anyone Forsberg faced - not to mention Crosby getting half of his offense in on the powerplay...).

So when other people say that you might be "deliberately confusing the issues," maybe it's not the best time to be snarky about how I am addressing "scoring environment" as if it is some newfangled concept.

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08-28-2013, 10:05 AM
  #291
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Really? Because he straight-up had a better points-per-game in 2002 than Crosby did in 2009 and the same points-per-game as Crosby did in 2008 (Ottawa and Philadelphia being SIGNIFICANTLY worse defensively than anyone Forsberg faced - not to mention Crosby getting half of his offense in on the powerplay...).

So when other people say that you might be "deliberately confusing the issues," maybe it's not the best time to be snarky about how I am addressing "scoring environment" as if it is some newfangled concept.
Oh it's definitely how you're addressing the scoring environment, and not that it's a newfangled concept.

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08-28-2013, 01:46 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Once again, you fail to notice a disparity in quality of competition, even when it's posted on this page. 13 points for Crosby against the 20th ranked defensive team or 12 points for Forsberg against the 9th ranked defensive team.

Siding with the "winner" as usual? There's another 17 skaters and 2 goalies, you know...
Well for starters it is sort of important to win in a competitive sport, so that does tend to inflate the person responsible for advancing his team. I guess the big question to ask is if Forsberg could make a trade for his 2002 performance for Crosby's 2009 would he do it? In a second. It is similar to asking whether or not Gilmour had a better performance in 1993 than Gretzky who was the guy that outplayed Gilmour when the chips were down and at least played good in the final, especially in Game 1.

I think Forsberg had a better performance in 2002 than Jamie Langenbrunner did in 2003 (made the final, won the Cup). But Crosby in 2008 and 2009 was among the best playoff performances we've seen and it isn't as if you are comparing Forsberg's best years to even a normal playoff run.

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08-28-2013, 09:40 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not that I blame you for finding it hard to keep up... At this point on the qpq discussion loop line express, we're going around in circles now about the relative impact on these guys' stats by scoring environment, line/teammates, and quality of opposition; basically exhausting the whole list until we find some way of painting something statistically as a clear advantage for Forsberg. It's proving tough.
you could always, ya know, watch a shift or two

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08-28-2013, 11:57 PM
  #294
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you could always, ya know, watch a shift or two
I believe that's what the majority are telling the minority who think it's "clearly Forsberg". And you shouldn't assume that a Canadian in their late 30s hasn't seen everything and more of 90s hockey - especially by now.

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08-29-2013, 12:52 AM
  #295
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Crosby by a landslide or avalanche. Might as well be asking who was better between Sandy McCarthy and Steve Yzerman.

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08-29-2013, 11:34 AM
  #296
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Well for starters it is sort of important to win in a competitive sport, so that does tend to inflate the person responsible for advancing his team. I guess the big question to ask is if Forsberg could make a trade for his 2002 performance for Crosby's 2009 would he do it? In a second. It is similar to asking whether or not Gilmour had a better performance in 1993 than Gretzky who was the guy that outplayed Gilmour when the chips were down and at least played good in the final, especially in Game 1.

I think Forsberg had a better performance in 2002 than Jamie Langenbrunner did in 2003 (made the final, won the Cup). But Crosby in 2008 and 2009 was among the best playoff performances we've seen and it isn't as if you are comparing Forsberg's best years to even a normal playoff run.
Winning is better than losing. Playing on a team that wins does not mean you are superior to an equivalent player on a team that loses. 1993 Doug Gilmour didn't make the Finals, but I think he outperformed 2009 Crosby.

In 2009 Crosby's Finals performance adds nothing to his resume. He was a great player until that point, but if anything, his poor Finals (when the chips were down) detracts from his overall performance.

In 2002 Forsberg, unlike Crosby, was the best player on his team. 27 points, ahead of Sakic's 19, and no other Av had over 13. Crosby never outscored his teammates by a wide margin in the playoffs in his deep runs. In 2008 he beat Hossa by one point. In 2009 Malkin beat him by 5.

In 2002 Forsberg was a +8 on team that was cumulative -18. The one time Crosby beat that number was in 2009, when his team was a cumulative +41 and he was a +9. Crosby clearly had more support than Forsberg. There was Malkin who picked up the slack when he faltered. He also had the good fortune of Max Talbot being the random guy who came up big in Game 7, which was a 2-1 win Crosby mostly didn't participate in. What if it had been a Red Wing who won the game when Crosby was absent? Would that make his individual performance less notable?

Forsberg failed to score when his team lost 9-0 over the last two games, but had two very good games where the team won Games 2 and 5, by scores of 4-3 and 2-1, with him getting a point on every goal. In those two games alone, he doubled Crosby's total scoring output for the 2009 Finals, and infinitibled (I don't think this word will catch on) his ECF series vs Boston this year.

As a playoff performer, Crosby still has a ways to go to surpass Forsberg.

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08-29-2013, 11:46 AM
  #297
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As a playoff performer, Crosby still has a ways to go to surpass Forsberg.
Which is fine, because he's already ahead of Forsberg's curve in both regular AND post season by age 25.

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08-29-2013, 11:51 AM
  #298
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Which is fine, because he's already ahead of Forsberg's curve in both regular AND post season by age 25.
True. I believe Crosby will be clearly better than Forsberg by the end of his career. But for the purpose of the Top 80, I don't think that Crosby through 25 is ahead of Forsberg's career.

I'd put him ahead of Lindros though.

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08-29-2013, 12:11 PM
  #299
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I think Crosby is superior at every facet of the game. Forsberg might have been a little more physical, but that's it.

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08-29-2013, 12:18 PM
  #300
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True. I believe Crosby will be clearly better than Forsberg by the end of his career. But for the purpose of the Top 80, I don't think that Crosby through 25 is ahead of Forsberg's career.

I'd put him ahead of Lindros though.
"All things considered", I'd already have him ahead of Forsberg AND Lindros for the purposes of a Top 80. I'm not an 80% playoffs/20% regular season guy, though; more 50/50. Actually, it's more like 2 sides of a 6-sided dice, when it comes down to it.

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