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The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

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08-29-2013, 09:21 AM
  #626
NYR Viper
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
In a 48 game season? Yea, OK. How would you have felt if the team missed the playoffs but Kreider scored a couple more goals. Satisfied?
Considering the other crap that occurred, I wouldn't have found fault in Kreider. Would he have been a worse option than Pyatt? Please...

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08-29-2013, 09:22 AM
  #627
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Eagerly awaiting the "Fire AV" threads that will undoubtedly appear if Kreider plays in the bottom 6 at all this season...
Why? Who has said they would want AV fired if Kreider plays in the bottom-6?

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08-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #628
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Why? Who has said they would want AV fired if Kreider plays in the bottom-6?
No one yet, it was sarcasm.

But considering how bent out of shape people got last season when Kreider was playing in the bottom 6, it's not really a stretch to assume that these same people will harbor some resentment towards AV if it happens again.

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08-29-2013, 09:37 AM
  #629
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No one yet, it was sarcasm.

But considering how bent out of shape people got last season when Kreider was playing in the bottom 6, it's not really a stretch to assume that these same people will harbor some resentment towards AV if it happens again.
I hope that doesn't happen. I would be perfectly fine if he got 3rd line minutes. Hell, I would be fine if he spent half the season in the AHL fine tuning his game. But playing him 3 minutes a night and benching him for minute mistakes pisses me off.

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08-29-2013, 09:41 AM
  #630
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You do realize that there is a huge discrepancy between these things right?

Do you ever get tired of knocking the Rangers organization over and over and over?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Please go re-read what I have written. Where did I condone him just throwing his defensive responsibilities to the wind? Maybe he could learn while he is playing considering he would bring something the team needs both now and in the future? Oh the horror!!
Comical. Just comical. I come off as overtly negative for 2 reasons:

1. The negative aspects of the team make for better conversation than, say, OMG LUNDQVIST IS A GOD! type of stuff.
2. Sather has given me plenty of ammunition over the years to complain. Its not my fault some of the fan base has become apathetic to that. I never will be.

My suggestion to you is to stop projecting an alternate reality on Kreider. Watch him play the NHL game and formulate an opinion off of that. The Kreider hype has taken on a life of its own, to the point where his stumbling last season could only be explained away by excuses and scapegoats. No NHL coach with a mandate to make the playoffs in a 48 game season would've thrown Kreider to the wolves by giving him 18 minutes a night -- especially considering how unprepared and overwhelmed he looked dealing with the speed of the NHL game.

I hope to God he improves, and takes huge steps this season, but I am dealing with the reality of where is he right now, and not the fantasyland that years of hype have created.

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08-29-2013, 09:48 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Comical. Just comical. I come off as overtly negative for 2 reasons:

1. The negative aspects of the team make for better conversation than, say, OMG LUNDQVIST IS A GOD! type of stuff.
2. Sather has given me plenty of ammunition over the years to complain. Its not my fault some of the fan base has become apathetic to that. I never will be.

My suggestion to you is to stop projecting an alternate reality on Kreider. Watch him play the NHL game and formulate an opinion off of that. The Kreider hype has taken on a life of its own, to the point where his stumbling last season could only be explained away by excuses and scapegoats. No NHL coach with a mandate to make the playoffs in a 48 game season would've thrown Kreider to the wolves by giving him 18 minutes a night -- especially considering how unprepared and overwhelmed he looked dealing with the speed of the NHL game.

I hope to God he improves, and takes huge steps this season, but I am dealing with the reality of where is he right now, and not the fantasyland that years of hype have created.
What are you talking about? Alternate reality? Where did I say 18 minutes a night?

Odd he didn't look overwhelmed when they allowed him to play in the playoffs the year before, but hey, if you think making actual observations is "making excuses" I don't see a reason to continue arguing. We aren't going to agree.

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08-29-2013, 10:31 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
No one yet, it was sarcasm.

But considering how bent out of shape people got last season when Kreider was playing in the bottom 6, it's not really a stretch to assume that these same people will harbor some resentment towards AV if it happens again.
The thing about Kreider is he is a finisher. Plain and simple. He needs to play with people that are going to get him the puck in high percentage areas. We were a team that had trouble scoring goals at times. Why not put him with the players that are going to make him better? Standing on his own, at this time, he is not a first liner. But as a pure finisher who's basic job is to put the puck in the net? I think he could handle the top 6 minutes. Hell it worked for a Jonathan Cheechoo for a few seasons.

Thats what bothered me personally about Kreider being in the bottom-6. I think he could have given this team a few more goals here a there on a better line. It was certainly troubling that he didn't embrace his role on the 4th line though. As a 4th liner he should have gone out there and earned his top-6 minutes.

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08-29-2013, 10:33 AM
  #633
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The thing about Kreider is he is a finisher. Plain and simple. He needs to play with people that are going to get him the puck in high percentage areas. We were a team that had trouble scoring goals at times. Why not put him with the players that are going to make him better? Standing on his own, at this time, he is not a first liner. But as a pure finisher who's basic job is to put the puck in the net? I think he could handle the top 6 minutes. Hell it worked for a Jonathan Cheechoo for a few seasons.

Thats what bothered me personally about Kreider being in the bottom-6. I think he could have given this team a few more goals here a there on a better line. It was certainly troubling that he didn't embrace his role on the 4th line though. As a 4th liner he should have gone out there and earned his top-6 minutes.
He'd also have to defend against better players on a higher line. Its a balancing act. Its definitely not as simple as saying Kreider + top 6 spot = goals.

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08-29-2013, 10:37 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
He'd also have to defend against better players on a higher line. Its a balancing act. Its definitely not as simple as saying Kreider + top 6 spot = goals.
Agreed. The hard part last year was they only had (2) centers who could distribute the puck.

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08-29-2013, 10:40 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
He'd also have to defend against better players on a higher line. Its a balancing act. Its definitely not as simple as saying Kreider + top 6 spot = goals.
True. Put him on a line with a solid defensive center like Stepan, then add in our defense + Hank. I think I could live with Kreider playing against top competition.

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08-29-2013, 10:42 AM
  #636
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True. Put him on a line with a solid defensive center like Stepan, then add in our defense + Hank. I think I could live with Kreider playing against top competition.
We'll likely have to live with it. Hagelin and Kreider are the top 2 LW's on this roster, which is pretty scary.

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08-29-2013, 11:01 AM
  #637
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Dave Lozo has the Rangers ranked as the league's best team:

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...14-nhl-season/

Quote:
1. NEW YORK RANGERS
Key additions: Alain Vigneault, Dominic Moore, happiness, joy
Key subtractions: John Tortorella, Ryane Clowe, dread, sadness
Must bounce back: Brad Richards, Dan Girardi
Why they are here: They have depth at forward and on the blue line and the best goalie in the NHL. The team grew immensely under Tortorella, but the switch to Vigneault will be a big reason the Rangers push themselves over the top.
How it can go wrong: It turns out Tortorella was the real reason for the team’s success. Lundqvist’s contract situation becomes a distraction. Richards shows last season really was the beginning of the end.
Funny quote of the offseason: “I thought Torts did a great job with the guys in the room. We all loved him.” – Dan Girardi

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08-29-2013, 11:12 AM
  #638
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LIRL @ the Flames. "How it can go right: It can't."

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08-29-2013, 11:12 AM
  #639
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Dave Lozo is a funny guy. Even some of the biggest Rangers homers will admit that our team is not the best in the league.

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08-29-2013, 11:17 AM
  #640
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I think Kreider is going to be a very good player. He is a superior skater with size. He has a very good shot--keeps himself in tremendous condition. That's not something a prima donna is likely to do. From what I've seen I would say he has very good character. His head for parts of the game has to catch up with the rest of him. Young forwards don't tend to earn trust from any NHL coach if they're not good on the defensive side of the puck. Good defense leads to offense. OTOH Kreider did not really get a chance to establish much chemistry with other players under Torts last year--when he did play he was shuffled all over the place. He needs training camp. He needs practice time. He needs time playing with the same line mates. Last year did not give him much of any of that.

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08-29-2013, 11:22 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Dave Lozo is a funny guy. Even some of the biggest Rangers homers will admit that our team is not the best in the league.
I think the Rangers should be among the top teams in the league, but I wouldn't have them #1. I think it's just an opportunity for Lozo to take another dig at Tortorella.

I do disagree with the rankings in some other areas, too. I see the Devils as more of a bottom-feeder than a midcarder.

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08-29-2013, 11:24 AM
  #642
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Who was a bigger let down last season Kreider or Richards?

Seems to me at least the Rangers were planning on Richards being their top line center. He wasn't.

Trying to pin last season struggles on any of the rookies is an odd way of looking at things. Trying to pin Torts firing on them is also quite odd to me, the Richards and Torts rocky bromance ending in that dramatic breakup in the playoffs was the biggest story last season.

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08-29-2013, 11:28 AM
  #643
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Trying to pin last season struggles on any of the rookies is an odd way of looking at things. Trying to pin Torts firing on them is also quite odd to me
Who is doing any of that?

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08-29-2013, 11:31 AM
  #644
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Who is doing any of that?
Its all or nothing. The reason the Rangers didnt win the Stanley Cup is because of one man. Is it Richards, Kreider, or Tortorella?

Choose wisely.

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08-29-2013, 11:34 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I think the Rangers should be among the top teams in the league, but I wouldn't have them #1. I think it's just an opportunity for Lozo to take another dig at Tortorella.

I do disagree with the rankings in some other areas, too. I see the Devils as more of a bottom-feeder than a midcarder.
Yeah, it's hard to take Lozo seriously after his rant on Torts. Brooks and Torts look like a bromance in comparison.

I think the Bruins should be a little higher and I'm dumbfounded as to why he ranked the Oilers are so high. Isles are too low and I agree that he is overly optimistic when it comes to the Devils.

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08-29-2013, 11:36 AM
  #646
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Darren Dreger said Torts was in trouble if the Rangers lost to Boston on May 21

Quote:
“With Tortorella you have that bombastic figure, he doesn’t enjoy dealing with the media or selling the game one bit. Thankfully for the New York Rangers they don’t have to sell the game, it’s like the Toronto Maple Leafs, you kick the doors open and you have a capacity crowd that makes tens of millions per year. In Tortorella there is a shelf life, all coaches have that, his expiration date is probably sooner than most because of how he approaches the media and his players. I didn’t like his comment on Carl Hagelin. He was blunt and honest that he stinks that that is why he doesn’t use him on the power play. That is a tough thing to say to a player who you are trying to get going, I know Milbury on NBC took issue with it, so good for him.”

“So to answer your question, if the Rangers are to be eliminated in short order by the Boston Bruins, is there a chance John Tortorella could be replaced? Yes there is a chance, absolutely. No question about it. Glen Sather made the big trade, he moved Gaborik out, prior to that they acquired Rick Nash, they aren’t done yet building this team into a true Stanley Cup contender but is John Tortorella the right coach, that management group for sure will have that discussion at the end of the Rangers season, whenever that is.”
http://snyrangersblog.com/coachesgm/...ose-to-boston/

The Rangers lost to Boston. Tortorella was fired eight days later. This is before the stories about the players being sick of Torts came out and management fired Tortorella because of a player revolt.

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08-29-2013, 11:37 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
...
Quote:
Just an ignorant and comical way to go about developing a young player.
And the rudeness has started. If you don't have something nice to say...

Quote:
JT Miller was drafted 4 spots ahead of Kreider. McIlrath was drafted 9 spots ahead of him. Should these guys be getting the same type of special treatment? Maybe even more?
False assumption that development of player A is by certain fact linked to development of player B. Also too many other facets to dispute. So many words, so little time...

Quote:
If Kreider needs to be with top 6 players just to keep from looking so lethargic, well, thats a real problem.
Apparently you are not satisfied that he cannot single-handedly carry even a portion of the entire team on his back. Not yet.

The flip side of this is, possible exception of an ELITE player aside, any top 6 player will likely be hampered when saddled with bottom 6 linemates. Even then, you try not to have an elite player extra-teamed. I never said Kreider is yet elite. He does have special talent that may make him elite, eventually. But elite or not, in a sport where you have to be careful about offsides, if he is with slower, lesser talent, it will slow him down, impinge on his ability to do great things.

That is just a fact.

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08-29-2013, 11:48 AM
  #648
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Tortorella didn't make many friends in the media. Its not hard to answer a simple question. He would criticize young players for needing to be better professionals. Look in the mirror big boy.

Lozo is right about the Islanders. They didn't replace Streit and have one of the worst goaltending situations in the NHL.

He has Dallas and Anaheim too low. Anaheim is a playoff team.

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08-29-2013, 12:02 PM
  #649
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Apparently you are not satisfied that he cannot single-handedly carry even a portion of the entire team on his back. Not yet.
.
This seems to be the crux of your ramblings and I'll simply say no, I expected Kreider to look like a consistent NHL'er last season, and he didnt. His linemates have nothing to do with that.

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08-29-2013, 12:04 PM
  #650
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Apparently you are not satisfied that he cannot single-handedly carry even a portion of the entire team on his back. Not yet.


BRB wants Kreider to move his feet and look interested, you take that to means he's supposed to carry his line. Because arguing the points he actually makes is too hard...

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