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08-29-2013, 11:53 AM
  #276
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If theres one player on the Oilers who seems to be really genuinely happy when his teammates score a big goal, its Gagner. I've seen his expression a few times now and he just seems estactic for his teammates. Gags just seems like a great team guy. I'd have no problems with him being named Captain. Although my preference would be Hall.

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08-29-2013, 11:54 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Of all of the kids on this team that are 25 and under I'd say that Gagner has shown the least amount of improvement over his NHL career. Eberle from year 1 to year 2, Hall has shown improvement every year, Nail grew leaps and bounds defensively last season, RNH played really solid D last year in spite of being hurt and not producing as much offensively, etc. That's not to say that Gagner doesn't work hard, but if we're looking ant on ice results as an indicator of working hard to improve their game, then how can you say that Gagner has outworked everyone?
He asked the question, he never made the statement. Give Gagner credit he works his butt off and has improved his game as well, the names you gave are 3 first overall picks and a late bloomer phenom. they all work hard!

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08-29-2013, 11:59 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Of all of the kids on this team that are 25 and under I'd say that Gagner has shown the least amount of improvement over his NHL career. Eberle from year 1 to year 2, Hall has shown improvement every year, Nail grew leaps and bounds defensively last season, RNH played really solid D last year in spite of being hurt and not producing as much offensively, etc. That's not to say that Gagner doesn't work hard, but if we're looking ant on ice results as an indicator of working hard to improve their game, then how can you say that Gagner has outworked everyone?
On ice results are not the only indicator of hard work.

And regarding the Captaincy, there are a hell of a lot of more things that are considered other than on ice performance.

Locker room demeanour
Willingness to improve on and off the ice
Oilers social events
fan relationships and player relations
intensity
team building
fairness to other players on the team
taking control of a game in certain situations
character
due diligence
bravery
Doing what the team needs you to do to better the team

(I know someone is going to pick apart this list like a vulture on a rotting corpse, but I forgive you )

Gagner has improved in many area's of his game, on and off the ice, including defense, over the course of his career so far.

You don't seem to want to acknowledge that for some reason though.

The guy has improved many aspects of his game every year he's been an Oiler.

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08-29-2013, 12:04 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
On ice results are not the only indicator of hard work.

And regarding the Captaincy, there are a hell of a lot of more things that are considered other than on ice performance.

Locker room demeanour
Willingness to improve on and off the ice
Oilers social events
fan relationships and player relations
intensity
team building
fairness to other players on the team
taking control of a game in certain situations
character
due diligence
bravery
Doing what the team needs you to do to better the team

(I know someone is going to pick apart this list like a vulture on a rotting corpse, but I forgive you )

Gagner has improved in many area's of his game, on and off the ice, including defense, over the course of his career so far.

You don't seem to want to acknowledge that for some reason though.

The guy has improved many aspects of his game every year he's been an Oiler.
He does not want to admit it because it would mean he is wrong. Human nature I suppose.

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08-29-2013, 12:08 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
I love how people just pull this crap out of their a!@.
They just make it up cause it fits their paradigm.
Look up Gagner's relative corsi and compare it to Hall's. That is not "made up".

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08-29-2013, 12:11 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Stop it right there.

Anybody on this board would know that GDT's are typically reactionary, frustrated, ranting exchanges where people typically state, restate, reverse their positions on any event happening and in the same game. For instance the guy stating "Why is this guy getting any icetime he sucks, he can't do anything, sit his ass" is then in the 3rd period eating crow pie as the player scores the winning goal. Or not ever seen again here for a few weeks. This is the general quality of information you get here from GDT's magnified several times by the biases towards specific players that some posters use a megaphone and bolded font to repeat here a thousand times.

The Steve Ott gif is probably next to the MacT gif the most viewed and posted gif on this board. Anybody can ask why. But in the Ott video we know certain posters here that have singlehandedly posted that gif probably 50 times each all in the spirit of instilling some kind of myth or generalization re: Gagners play. Its an open attempt at creating a stereotype, a fiction, about the player. This being example of the skewing, of the bias, that takes place here. To gather anything regarding any player from GDT's is like trying to find gold in a steamy outhouse.
I love stirring this pot because besides Dubnyk, I'd say Gagner is one of the most polarizing figures on our team in terms of fan appreciation. Hate him, or love him. So when we talk about Captains and starting goalies it's quite divided.

I agree, GDT's might not have been the best example, however it still doesn't mean Gagner is a good defensive centerman.
Surely even you can't be defending his inability to be stronger in his own end of the zone?

Agree to disagree.

Do I want him captain? No. In my personal opinion, I like teams that have one of their best players (whom have to be mature and vocal) as their captain. I would like a Lidstrom/Sakic/Yzerman/Bourque/Lemieux....meaning, Hall/Eberle at this moment.

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08-29-2013, 12:15 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
Look up Gagner's relative corsi and compare it to Hall's. That is not "made up".
How about stop comparing him to first overall picks! No wonder you seem disappointed.

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08-29-2013, 12:19 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Pressure View Post
I love stirring this pot because besides Dubnyk, I'd say Gagner is one of the most polarizing figures on our team in terms of fan appreciation. Hate him, or love him. So when we talk about Captains and starting goalies it's quite divided.

I agree, GDT's might not have been the best example, however it still doesn't mean Gagner is a good defensive centerman.
Surely even you can't be defending his inability to be stronger in his own end of the zone?

Agree to disagree.

Do I want him captain? No. In my personal opinion, I like teams that have one of their best players (whom have to be mature and vocal) as their captain. I would like a Lidstrom/Sakic/Yzerman/Bourque/Lemieux....meaning, Hall/Eberle at this moment.
Logical argument with out the made up stuff.Go figure. Nobody said he was jonathan toews, but if your going to say he is terrible defensively back it up. Because its not the case at all.

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08-29-2013, 12:25 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by hellacious View Post
How about stop comparing him to first overall picks! No wonder you seem disappointed.
What? This thread has turned into a Hall vs. Gagner thread. I would think the relative corsi of both is relevant.

What does it matter where either was picked? You seem to be admitting this is not a fair comparison because Hall is better. I want the better player as my captain. Others want Gagner. That is why I brought up the corsi.

Whatever. Both sides have merit. I am going to wait until an actual decision is made. We are all just spinning tires here at this point.

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08-29-2013, 12:33 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
What? This thread has turned into a Hall vs. Gagner thread. I would think the relative corsi of both is relevant.

Whatever. Both sides have merit. I am going to wait until an actual decision is made. We are all just spinning tires here at this point.
Its up to the team and not us so I agree. A Captain is not about being the best player is the point I am trying to make.

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08-29-2013, 12:34 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
On ice results are not the only indicator of hard work.

And regarding the Captaincy, there are a hell of a lot of more things that are considered other than on ice performance.

Locker room demeanour
Willingness to improve on and off the ice
Oilers social events
fan relationships and player relations
intensity
team building
fairness to other players on the team
taking control of a game in certain situations
character
due diligence
bravery
Doing what the team needs you to do to better the team

(I know someone is going to pick apart this list like a vulture on a rotting corpse, but I forgive you )

Gagner has improved in many area's of his game, on and off the ice, including defense, over the course of his career so far.

You don't seem to want to acknowledge that for some reason though.

The guy has improved many aspects of his game every year he's been an Oiler.
In what way has Gagner improved his defense?

Over his six season career he hasn't once been able to crack the top 5 in forwards on ice shooting differential, playing on one of the worst defensive teams in NHL history.

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08-29-2013, 12:36 PM
  #287
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I think people are getting too twisted up about this.

From what I can decipher, Wanye is merely stating that Horcoff recommended Gagner for captain. Historically the recommendation is accepted as the next captain (Smith begat Moreau, Moreau begat Horcoff). He is basing this off the assumption that this trend will continue, which may or may not happen.

Second, we really don't have any idea what the dressing room is like. We have no idea who is saying what. We can judge on-ice performance all we want, but for all we know Hall could be the guy that just mopes around the dressing room after losses. We simply don't know. So for us to sit on computers and state who would be a better captain is comedic at best.

So before the pitchforks come out, how about we at the very least wait until a captain is named. Although I understand that can be difficult with the only other Oilers' news being Omark.

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08-29-2013, 12:38 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by hellacious View Post
Its up to the team and not us so I agree. A Captain is not about being the best player is the point I am trying to make.
I can agree with that. For all we know Eakins could name Ference or Smid. Then watch the board implode.

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08-29-2013, 12:39 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Pressure View Post
I love stirring this pot because besides Dubnyk, I'd say Gagner is one of the most polarizing figures on our team in terms of fan appreciation. Hate him, or love him. So when we talk about Captains and starting goalies it's quite divided.

I agree, GDT's might not have been the best example, however it still doesn't mean Gagner is a good defensive centerman.
Surely even you can't be defending his inability to be stronger in his own end of the zone?

Agree to disagree.

Do I want him captain? No. In my personal opinion, I like teams that have one of their best players (whom have to be mature and vocal) as their captain. I would like a Lidstrom/Sakic/Yzerman/Bourque/Lemieux....meaning, Hall/Eberle at this moment.

Thanks for the reply and acknowledging.

Gagner can't be considered a good defensive center at this point in time but that doesn't occur in a vacuum either. This club, despite their apparent offensive depth struggled mightily to produce last year. Gagner was one of the handful that did produce.
But the lack of offensive production and pressure resulted in the Oil adopting some consistent risk situations that involved massive use of D jumping into the play. Of course all teams utilize this to some degree but with the Oilers excessive. But what one saw if looking for it is RNH, Paajarvi, and Gagner would recognize D pinch and peel back fairly consistently with Gagner doing this several times a game and on some occassions actually making a reasonable to good D type play. (bad ones as well) But thing is when you're back as a forward on an odd man rush upcoming bad things are likely going to happen. People like Staples will attribute an error stat. But meanwhile a guy like Eberle who is the least likely player on this club to get back on time gets no error because he isn't even in the frame of view when a GA occurs. Think about that. Think as well about Omark, who was rarely seen in ownzone in his rookie year, had less errors attributed on such a stat and a good apparent ratio of chances created vs errors. But again David Staples was using a poor metric and Centers being penalized in the error stat on the basis of something like losing a faceoff(which results in an immediate biased per posiition played metric)

What people should focus on is which players are INVOLVED both offensively and defensively and which make efforts on both ends of the ice. Gagner did, and consistently. By doing so he would have exposed some flaws and areas of work. But those being on display because of him playing positionally improved hockey and being in the heat areas in ownzone.

Additionally Gagners pk numbers last year were very good. Really the best on the club. just saying

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08-29-2013, 12:50 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Additionally Gagners pk numbers last year were very good. Really the best on the club. just saying
He was so good on the PK that he got less SH:TOI than Petrell, Horcoff, Belanger and Ryan Smyth

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08-29-2013, 12:55 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks for the reply and acknowledging.

Gagner can't be considered a good defensive center at this point in time but that doesn't occur in a vacuum either. This club, despite their apparent offensive depth struggled mightily to produce last year. Gagner was one of the handful that did produce.
But the lack of offensive production and pressure resulted in the Oil adopting some consistent risk situations that involved massive use of D jumping into the play. Of course all teams utilize this to some degree but with the Oilers excessive. But what one saw if looking for it is RNH, Paajarvi, and Gagner would recognize D pinch and peel back fairly consistently with Gagner doing this several times a game and on some occassions actually making a reasonable to good D type play. (bad ones as well) But thing is when you're back as a forward on an odd man rush upcoming bad things are likely going to happen. People like Staples will attribute an error stat. But meanwhile a guy like Eberle who is the least likely player on this club to get back on time gets no error because he isn't even in the frame of view when a GA occurs. Think about that. Think as well about Omark, who was rarely seen in ownzone in his rookie year, had less errors attributed on such a stat and a good apparent ratio of chances created vs errors. But again David Staples was using a poor metric and Centers being penalized in the error stat on the basis of something like losing a faceoff(which results in an immediate biased per posiition played metric)

What people should focus on is which players are INVOLVED both offensively and defensively and which make efforts on both ends of the ice. Gagner did, and consistently. By doing so he would have exposed some flaws and areas of work. But those being on display because of him playing positionally improved hockey and being in the heat areas in ownzone.

Additionally Gagners pk numbers last year were very good. Really the best on the club. just saying
Gagner played the 7th most shorthanded minutes per game of any Oilers forward last season.

Here are the players who played more than him on a per game basis:

Eric Belanger: 3:08 TOI/G
Jerred Smithson: 2:57 TOI/G
Lennart Petrell: 2:31 TOI/G
Ryan Smyth: 2:29 TOI/G
Anton Lander: 1:45 TOI/G

What a distinguished list of players to be viewed as a second option to.

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08-29-2013, 12:56 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
He was so good on the PK that he got less SH:TOI than Petrell, Horcoff, Belanger and Ryan Smyth
Beat me to the punch!

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08-29-2013, 12:59 PM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephF View Post
He was so good on the PK that he got less SH:TOI than Petrell, Horcoff, Belanger and Ryan Smyth
Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Gagner played the 7th most shorthanded minutes per game of any Oilers forward last season.

Here are the players who played more than him on a per game basis:

Eric Belanger: 3:08 TOI/G
Jerred Smithson: 2:57 TOI/G
Lennart Petrell: 2:31 TOI/G
Ryan Smyth: 2:29 TOI/G
Anton Lander: 1:45 TOI/G

What a distinguished list of players to be viewed as a second option to.
Maybe he got less SH:TOI than those people because he actually, you know, logged minutes at even strength and on the powerplay. You'll note that these regular PK'ers were in the bottom six and were playing specific roles. They didn't appear on the powerplay or get much ice time with the exception of Ryan Smyth some games.

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08-29-2013, 01:00 PM
  #294
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Maybe he got less SH:TOI than those people because he actually, you know, logged minutes at even strength and on the powerplay.
ES minutes that he spent he hemmed to his own zone because of his inability to win face offs or play defense.

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08-29-2013, 01:01 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
I can agree with that. For all we know Eakins could name Ference or Smid. Then watch the board implode.
I am ok with those two as well. The candidates are...

Hall, Gagner, Eberle, Smyth, Ferrance, Smid.

Happy with which ever they pick. Thinking Smid would be epic. But he is going to do what he does regardless in the room and on the ice. It's probably is the case with others as well.

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08-29-2013, 01:02 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
ES minutes that he spent he hemmed to his own zone because of his inability to win face offs or play defense.
Good retort

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08-29-2013, 01:02 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks for the reply and acknowledging.

Gagner can't be considered a good defensive center at this point in time but that doesn't occur in a vacuum either. This club, despite their apparent offensive depth struggled mightily to produce last year. Gagner was one of the handful that did produce.
But the lack of offensive production and pressure resulted in the Oil adopting some consistent risk situations that involved massive use of D jumping into the play. Of course all teams utilize this to some degree but with the Oilers excessive. But what one saw if looking for it is RNH, Paajarvi, and Gagner would recognize D pinch and peel back fairly consistently with Gagner doing this several times a game and on some occassions actually making a reasonable to good D type play. (bad ones as well) But thing is when you're back as a forward on an odd man rush upcoming bad things are likely going to happen. People like Staples will attribute an error stat. But meanwhile a guy like Eberle who is the least likely player on this club to get back on time gets no error because he isn't even in the frame of view when a GA occurs. Think about that. Think as well about Omark, who was rarely seen in ownzone in his rookie year, had less errors attributed on such a stat and a good apparent ratio of chances created vs errors. But again David Staples was using a poor metric and Centers being penalized in the error stat on the basis of something like losing a faceoff(which results in an immediate biased per posiition played metric)

What people should focus on is which players are INVOLVED both offensively and defensively and which make efforts on both ends of the ice. Gagner did, and consistently. By doing so he would have exposed some flaws and areas of work. But those being on display because of him playing positionally improved hockey and being in the heat areas in ownzone.

Additionally Gagners pk numbers last year were very good. Really the best on the club. just saying
This is a great post.

The two questions you should have been asking yourself last season were:
1) why was Gagner having to cover for a pinching defenceman so regularly?
and 2) where the hell were the wingers ever?

We had an awful system last season that exposed the centres and defencemen while letting the wingers stay pretty.

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08-29-2013, 01:06 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
He was so good on the PK that he got less SH:TOI than Petrell, Horcoff, Belanger and Ryan Smyth
Oh for crying out loud.

Gagner was 5th on the club in pk minutes 30 secs behind Horcoff on the whole bloody season. With horcoffs only apparent reason for being here is a thought that he could maybe play defensively, pk, and ownzone. Ditto Belanger who's only contribution was on the pk. Ditto Petrell pretty much.

Smyth was kind of a blackhole and hard to explain. The team thinking he could still be good in this regard.

But congrats on finding a few forwards with more pk time that were primarily known to be here as defensive players who contributed little else.

Anybody can look up the stats. (for instance behind the net) I've posted them here before. When Gagner was on the ice on pk the team did well. Best stats of any Oiler on the pk.

Like I've been saying Gagner made notable offensive and defensive contributions to the team. That can be stated about few forwards that were on the team.

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08-29-2013, 01:06 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
ES minutes that he spent he hemmed to his own zone because of his inability to win face offs or play defense.
Why weren't his wingers being aggressive enough for contested draws? If he had better support on his faceoffs for the loose puck, his numbers would've looked better (maybe around 46-47%).

The wingers played high to the points, the defence played man-to-man instead of zonally and the centres were tasked with playing board-to-board instead of dot-to-dot in the defensive zone.

Only RNH, an on-ice genius with beautiful stickwork who deservedly went first overall in 2011, managed to keep his head above water in that system--and he benefited from Taylor Hall regularly ignoring our defensive scheme.

I'm not going to pretend that Gagner is some amazing defensive player, but just as the centre impacts his teammates the most on the ice...so too are centres the most impacted by teammates on the ice. If everyone's running around or not getting involved, you're not going to look good.

"But what about previous seasons?"
You mean when we had an even worse collection of players?

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08-29-2013, 01:10 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
ES minutes that he spent he hemmed to his own zone because of his inability to win face offs or play defense.
How did he get the second most points on the team last year hemmed into his own zone.

He must have quite the shot to get er in the net from below his own blue line.

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