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Will Anton Stralman emerge as the #4 defenseman this year?

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Old
08-30-2013, 06:14 PM
  #26
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Del Zotto puts up points, sure. Stralman could too if he was fed powerplay time through an IV.

But who would I rather have up by 1 with a minute left? Well, that's different.

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08-30-2013, 06:15 PM
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C'mon he's better than Moore. Who thinks DZ isn't better than Moore?
Moore has potential and that's where a lot of the Moore > Del Zotto opinions are coming from but DZ has potential that hasn't been reached yet. For one, I haven't given up on his use on the PP.

Of all the things that John Tortorella has created, the best would have to be the grinders and the defensive defensemen. He made Prust from a $1M man into a $2.5M(?) man in one year (albeit it being an over payment). Boyle became a player worthy of mentioning under Torts despite his complete failure to use his size in fore checking, fighting, and positioning. Two-way guys like Step and Cally excelled. Even guys like Pyatt who were defensively okay and pinched in with board play etc. did okay under Torts because they were simply there to fill that defense first role.

Nash's game and creativity weakened as the season dragged on. At the beginning, there was a lot of flare to Nash's game and creativity. Perhaps he overdid it because of the one man crew that he had to be in CBJ but at the end of this year, he wasn't the same Nash that made him the dominant goal scorer and puck possessor he was in CBJ.

One thing that I know for certain is that Torts' philosophy doesn't bring DZ's best out on paper and to me, it doesn't help DZ offensively on the ice either.

It's always argued that until DZ does something in a system that allows for defensemen to jump in more systematically, his potential is right around where he's at. Yet for John Moore, there's an assumption that he will grow into a better player and grow into the #4 position and into a PPQB. The familiarity with DZ has almost bittered fans' perception of him.

In the Kreider debates, the question has been where the fault lies and how much was on Kreider and how much was on Torts. On the Torts side, it was argued that Torts didn't overlook his shortcomings a bit more and let his strength develop and slowly mold and help him improve on his weaknesses playing away from the puck.

For DZ, he thrives when he can jump in on the play not only by being more aggressive in keeping the puck in and distributing the puck, but actually carry the play in the offensive zone a little. He has that upside which has yet to be used to its fullest.

Stralman has been sound defensively and doesn't get noticed much which is a great thing for bottom pairing/bottom three guys. He's said to be the second best d man last year but I doubt that would be the case if he filled in the role of the #2 dman on the team. He's the big fish in the bottom 3 pond and I think that big fish perception is the reason why he's being valued a lot more than guys that has shown to have an impact on the game offensive, on the PP, and maintain solid defensive play at the same time, say DZ.

Stralman is perfect right now because of how much flexibility we have by having him on the team. He can fill in and be given a bigger role should we decide to ship one of our dman in a deal. That to me doesn't really equate to Stralman's inherent value though. It's like having a backup charger for your phone. It automatically makes your primary charger less valuable and it also makes the backup charger something that's to be treasured and kept safely.

I unno. Stralsy has been dependable this year but at what point was he a workhorse who shuts down top offensive players on the opposition, broke a game open offensively, sparked, the offense, saved a game etc.

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08-30-2013, 06:19 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
Moore has potential and that's where a lot of the Moore > Del Zotto opinions are coming from but DZ has potential that hasn't been reached yet. For one, I haven't given up on his use on the PP.

Of all the things that John Tortorella has created, the best would have to be the grinders and the defensive defensemen. He made Prust from a $1M man into a $2.5M(?) man in one year (albeit it being an over payment). Boyle became a player worthy of mentioning under Torts despite his complete failure to use his size in fore checking, fighting, and positioning. Two-way guys like Step and Cally excelled. Even guys like Pyatt who were defensively okay and pinched in with board play etc. did okay under Torts because they were simply there to fill that defense first role.

Nash's game and creativity weakened as the season dragged on. At the beginning, there was a lot of flare to Nash's game and creativity. Perhaps he overdid it because of the one man crew that he had to be in CBJ but at the end of this year, he wasn't the same Nash that made him the dominant goal scorer and puck possessor he was in CBJ.

It's always argued that until DZ does something in a system that allows for defensemen to jump in more systematically, his potential is right around where he's at. Yet for John Moore, there's an assumption that he will grow into a better player and grow into the #4 position and into a PPQB. The familiarity with DZ has almost bittered fans' perception of him.

In the Kreider debates, the question has been where the fault lies and how much was on Kreider and how much was on Torts. On the Torts side, it was argued that Torts didn't overlook his shortcomings a bit more and let his strength develop and slowly mold and help him improve on his weaknesses playing away from the puck.

For DZ, he thrives when he can jump in on the play not only by being more aggressive in keeping the puck in and distributing the puck, but actually carry the play in the offensive zone a little. He has that upside which has yet to be used to its fullest.

Stralman has been sound defensively and doesn't get noticed much which is a great thing for bottom pairing/bottom three guys. He's said to be the second best d man last year but I doubt that would be the case if he filled in the role of the #2 dman on the team. He's the big fish in the bottom 3 pond and I think that big fish perception is the reason why he's being valued a lot more than guys that has shown to have an impact on the game offensive, on the PP, and maintain solid defensive play at the same time, say DZ.

Stralman is perfect right now because of how much flexibility we have by having him on the team. He can fill in and be given a bigger role should we decide to ship one of our dman in a deal. That to me doesn't really equate to Stralman's inherent value though. It's like having a backup charger for your phone. It automatically makes your primary charger less valuable and it also makes the backup charger something that's to be treasured and kept safely.

I unno. Stralsy has been dependable this year but at what point was he a workhorse who shuts down top offensive players on the opposition, broke a game open offensively, sparked, the offense, saved a game etc.
Could DZ be used better on even strength by a coach who believes scoring goals is a good thing? Absolutely.

For one though, is AV even that coach? And two, I think a little less powerplay time for Del Zotto would be good. There's no reason he has to get almost a full minute more than any other defender. And of course Girardi was 2nd in PPTOI which is even more baffling because he has to be the worst PPQB in the league.

Look at at most team's PPTOI and for the most part their top 3 and sometimes their top 4 are all D-men. For the Rangers, only Del Zotto cracks the top 7. That's hurts the team and it hurts Del Zotto.

I don't even know anymore if I'm more angry at Del Zotto or the way Del Zotto is used.

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08-30-2013, 06:23 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Del Zotto puts up points, sure. Stralman could too if he was fed powerplay time through an IV.

But who would I rather have up by 1 with a minute left? Well, that's different.
Stralman played almost an hour on the powerplay last season and put up zero points. Obviously he just needed more time... #kreiderlogic

Del Zotto outpaced him at even strength as well.

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08-30-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Stralman played almost an hour on the powerplay last season and put up zero points. Obviously he just needed more time... #kreiderlogic

Del Zotto outpaced him at even strength as well.
Del Zotto played almost 3 hours

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08-30-2013, 06:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Del Zotto puts up points, sure. Stralman could too if he was fed powerplay time through an IV.

But who would I rather have up by 1 with a minute left? Well, that's different.
DZ gets fed PPT because that's the role he needs to excel at. Stralman isn't the same type of player. Besides, our power play isn't really anything to write home about.

I would have neither on the ice with a minute left. The notion there is that Stralman is better defensively and while I agree with that, it's only by the slightest of margins. DZ makes some stupid and weird plays on odd man rushes and in tight situations that makes you wonder sometimes but the mistakes Stralman makes are overlooked way more often than Del Zaster's. Also, DZ plays against lines that are meant to generate offense and DZ gets more ice time against those offensively minded lines. I'm pretty sure our bottom 6 guys last year would make 3rd pairing guys in Tampa look good.

I like Stralman, don't get me wrong. I think he's great and I even started the player discussion thread for Anton a while back to point out his value and how he's flying under the radar both in value and in terms of not being involved in a defensive lapse. Ironically, I think I pushed the first domino on voicing The Great Anton Campaign.

I just think there's a lot of cognitively fallacious things happening. DZ is THAT GUY, DEL ZASTER and Stralman is literally the opposite, the underdog, the dark horse, the unnoticed defender of the team. Like a classroom of children who are all noisy at one point or another but only THAT ONE KID gets called out by the teacher because of his reputation and record (which are somewhat unjust to begin with). Anton has been the kid that hands in his homework on time and stays out of trouble.

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08-30-2013, 06:28 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Del Zotto played almost 3 hours
And had 16 points, which is infinity times more than Stralman's zero.

If he had gone scoreless through his first hour, he probably would have gotten his time cut. Tortorella has this weird policy of tying performance to ice-time.

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08-30-2013, 06:30 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Del Zotto played almost 3 hours
rightfully so. He's our best PPQB option. It's not his fault that our PP sucks and just because our PP sucks doesn't mean he's not a good PPQB with greater potential. It's not a crime to be given more minutes on the PP because you're the best PPQB guy on the team. Stralman's one hour and 0 points speaks way more than DZ's excessive PP time. He does some good things on the PP.

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08-30-2013, 06:35 PM
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It would be super if the Rangers had the personnel to make Del Zotto a 2nd unit PP option. They don't.

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08-30-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Not a popular opinion, but I think he's already our #4. I'd take him over Del Zotto.
Not the majority opinion, but you're not alone. Regarding PP time, what about whether it was on the 1st or 2nd unit?

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08-30-2013, 06:39 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
DZ gets fed PPT because that's the role he needs to excel at. Stralman isn't the same type of player. Besides, our power play isn't really anything to write home about.

I would have neither on the ice with a minute left. The notion there is that Stralman is better defensively and while I agree with that, it's only by the slightest of margins. DZ makes some stupid and weird plays on odd man rushes and in tight situations that makes you wonder sometimes but the mistakes Stralman makes are overlooked way more often than Del Zaster's. Also, DZ plays against lines that are meant to generate offense and DZ gets more ice time against those offensively minded lines. I'm pretty sure our bottom 6 guys last year would make 3rd pairing guys in Tampa look good.

I like Stralman, don't get me wrong. I think he's great and I even started the player discussion thread for Anton a while back to point out his value and how he's flying under the radar both in value and in terms of not being involved in a defensive lapse. Ironically, I think I pushed the first domino on voicing The Great Anton Campaign.

I just think there's a lot of cognitively fallacious things happening. DZ is THAT GUY, DEL ZASTER and Stralman is literally the opposite, the underdog, the dark horse, the unnoticed defender of the team. Like a classroom of children who are all noisy at one point or another but only THAT ONE KID gets called out by the teacher because of his reputation and record (which are somewhat unjust to begin with). Anton has been the kid that hands in his homework on time and stays out of trouble.
Funny story about that, in high school I was BOTH of those kids.

But I think the idea that Del Zotto gets "called out" while Stralman just shows up, plays, and goes home without a peep has alot of merit. I think it's primarily because of the players they are. Del Zotto is flashy and can skate through a whole team on his way down the ice. He takes risks and as such is prone to do things that make you punch holes in the wall. Stralman is the opposite. He won't knock you over but he also doesn't do anything really asinine.

In their positions, bottom 4 defenders, I usually go for the more quiet responsible type. I usually go for the flash, but for the risks Del Zotto takes, I'd like to see him take it to that next level. To be that Dan Boyle or Keith Yandle. Right now Del Zotto is kind of stuck in the middle. He's always playing out of the box like an offensive D should, but he's not quite producing at an elite level yet. He can still get there, and I'd love to see him get there. As of now, I trust Stralman's steady game more.

And like I said, more even powerplay time on the blueline is less of a reflection on Del Zotto than it is something I think could benefit the team as a whole. I think we get a bit stale and predictable on the PP with the constant use of Richards And Del Zotto. And whenever we do get a reprieve from those two it comes in the form of Girardi missing the net by 30 feet. I think Stralman and McDonagh have the skill to be mixed in there more and give us a different look.

And I'm never gonna stop bullying Del Zotto. We're both young Italian kids, that's what we do

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08-30-2013, 06:41 PM
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Not the majority opinion, but you're not alone. Regarding PP time, what about whether it was on the 1st or 2nd unit?
I kind of understood that comment but that could be said about anything.

It would be great if the Rangers had the personnel to make Stepan our 2C or make Nash our 2RW or McDonagh our #2D (assuming Staal at #3)

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08-30-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
I kind of understood that comment but that could be said about anything.

It would be great if the Rangers had the personnel to make Stepan our 2C or make Nash our 2RW or McDonagh our #2D (assuming Staal at #3)
My point was that while Stralman got PP time, how much of it was on the 2nd unit? Del Zotto was always on the 1st unit. Just something to consider if PP time is being compared.

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08-30-2013, 06:47 PM
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My point was that while Stralman got PP time, how much of it was on the 2nd unit? Del Zotto was always on the 1st unit. Just something to consider if PP time is being compared.
Del Zotto's PP Linemates: RICKNASH 64.7 RYANCALLAHAN 62.8 BRADRICHARDS 61.8 DEREKSTEPAN 51.5 MARIANGABORIK 43.0 DANGIRARDI 21.1 MATSZUCCARELLO 18.9 CARLHAGELIN 17.1 TAYLORPYATT 11.0 RYANECLOWE 10.0

Stralman's PP linemates: DEREKSTEPAN 37.9 J.T.MILLER 36.9 BRADRICHARDS 36.8 MARIANGABORIK 35.8 TAYLORPYATT 32.5 RYANMCDONAGH 31.1 CARLHAGELIN 27.3 RYANCALLAHAN 26.9 RICKNASH 26.6 MARCSTAAL 23.8

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08-30-2013, 06:49 PM
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Funny story about that, in high school I was BOTH of those kids.

But I think the idea that Del Zotto gets "called out" while Stralman just shows up, plays, and goes home without a peep has alot of merit. I think it's primarily because of the players they are. Del Zotto is flashy and can skate through a whole team on his way down the ice. He takes risks and as such is prone to do things that make you punch holes in the wall. Stralman is the opposite. He won't knock you over but he also doesn't do anything really asinine.

In their positions, bottom 4 defenders, I usually go for the more quiet responsible type. I usually go for the flash, but for the risks Del Zotto takes, I'd like to see him take it to that next level. To be that Dan Boyle or Keith Yandle. Right now Del Zotto is kind of stuck in the middle. He's always playing out of the box like an offensive D should, but he's not quite producing at an elite level yet. He can still get there, and I'd love to see him get there. As of now, I trust Stralman's steady game more.

And like I said, more even powerplay time on the blueline is less of a reflection on Del Zotto than it is something I think could benefit the team as a whole. I think we get a bit stale and predictable on the PP with the constant use of Richards And Del Zotto. And whenever we do get a reprieve from those two it comes in the form of Girardi missing the net by 30 feet. I think Stralman and McDonagh have the skill to be mixed in there more and give us a different look.

And I'm never gonna stop bullying Del Zotto. We're both young Italian kids, that's what we do
That's one thing I had in mind that I forgot to mention. If DZ were to play entirely on the defensive side of the game, he would be a much better defensive defenseman then he is right now. However, that's not in his hockey sense, that's not in his DNA. Even Torts said that DZ is at his best both defensively and offensively (including on ice decisions, positioning, adaptability) when the PP is clicking (with him on the PP of course).

Some pegged Stralman as having offensive abilities but a cake with chocolate drizzle is not a chocolate ganache cake. DZ's defensive shortcomings are suppose to be there. Sens fans makes remarks on Karlsson's defense in a similar fashion sometimes. Letang can be a defensive nightmare in a lot of situation as well. -31-'s post about the Leetch standard is on point.

Stale is at the bottom of the DZ confusion. Stralman is new to be famed. Moore is new on Broadway. DZ has been getting better quietly without much of a breakout (not even a breakout season, just a breakout).

I can't back this up with posts but I remember there definitely some comments on DZ's personality and him away from the game of hockey and it's not because he's an ass or anything because he's not. You can criticize Pat Kane for his shenanigans but DZ isn't even at that level. He's certainly Pat Kane-ish and Kane receives his hate for that from lots of hockey fans and I think DZ gets hate for that as well.

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08-30-2013, 06:50 PM
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My point was that while Stralman got PP time, how much of it was on the 2nd unit? Del Zotto was always on the 1st unit. Just something to consider if PP time is being compared.
An hour of PP time with 0 points is still quite glaring.

31's post on linemates also points out that the 2nd unit isn't bad either.

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08-30-2013, 06:50 PM
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Thanks for the stats -31-, I was genuinely curious.

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08-30-2013, 06:51 PM
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-31-'s post about the Leetch standard is on point.
Typical.

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08-30-2013, 06:53 PM
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Typical.
Typical Laviolette.

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08-30-2013, 06:54 PM
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Thanks for the stats -31-, I was genuinely curious.
Ain't no thing.

DZ definitely played with better players on the PP, but the points per minute gap is still staggering. I'm also didn't realize Miller played that much on the PP.

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08-30-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
An hour of PP time with 0 points is still quite glaring.

31's post on linemates also points out that the 2nd unit isn't bad either.
No doubt. I'm excited/curious to see how the defensemen are used under AV. McDonagh and Del Zotto for instance have never played for another NHL coach. Should be interesting.

I think we'll see Stralman on the 3rd pairing with Moore simply because Del Zotto needs an partner like Staal to maximize his game, specifically offensively; Not because Stralman isn't capable of playing on the 2nd pairing. Nicely balanced B-4:

Staal - Del Zotto
Moore - Stralman

*JT's PP ice time stood out to me as well, definitely do not remember him on the PP that much, but I do remember him looking pretty good on the PP. Not that that says much in NYR context.


Last edited by Aufheben: 08-30-2013 at 07:00 PM.
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08-30-2013, 07:12 PM
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08-30-2013, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Del Zotto's PP Linemates: RICKNASH 64.7 RYANCALLAHAN 62.8 BRADRICHARDS 61.8 DEREKSTEPAN 51.5 MARIANGABORIK 43.0 DANGIRARDI 21.1 MATSZUCCARELLO 18.9 CARLHAGELIN 17.1 TAYLORPYATT 11.0 RYANECLOWE 10.0

Stralman's PP linemates: DEREKSTEPAN 37.9 J.T.MILLER 36.9 BRADRICHARDS 36.8 MARIANGABORIK 35.8 TAYLORPYATT 32.5 RYANMCDONAGH 31.1 CARLHAGELIN 27.3 RYANCALLAHAN 26.9 RICKNASH 26.6 MARCSTAAL 23.8
Serious question, where do you get these?

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08-30-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliDubiZib View Post
Serious question, where do you get these?
made them up.

alternate answer: here http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...31+33&ds=8&f5=

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08-30-2013, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
made them up.

alternate answer: here http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...31+33&ds=8&f5=
All I can get are the top 3 linemates

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