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Old
08-30-2013, 05:03 PM
  #676
silverfish
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Luck? Come on now.

Everyone talks about "big game" players in hockey. How you need those guys who step it up in crunch time and in the playoffs.

It isn't luck that Eli is a machine in fourth quarters and the playoffs. Eli is a big game player, and big game players win big games.

Is it "lucky" that Welker dropped the ball? Sure, I guess. But that happens plenty of times around the league. Is it "lucky" that Chase Blackburn picks off Tom Brady? Nope. Is it "lucky" that the Giants force the Pats into a safety? Nope.

Is it "lucky" that Larry Tynes has ****ing ice in his veins? Hell no.

If the six seed Rangers made it to the Stanley Cup Finals, nobody on this board would be talking about how they're "lucky" to get there.

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08-30-2013, 05:07 PM
  #677
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Tynes has a staff infection running through his veins right now, unfortunately, and we're all hoping he recovers from that soon.

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08-30-2013, 05:51 PM
  #678
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I was actually never a Tynes fan, but I think Josh Brown is gonna make me miss him

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08-30-2013, 06:18 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I was actually never a Tynes fan, but I think Josh Brown is gonna make me miss him
Tynes never had the biggest leg, but he was clutch as hell.

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08-30-2013, 06:19 PM
  #680
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What people also fail to point out, is that the Giants in 2007 were not HEALTHY until their SB run started.

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08-30-2013, 06:23 PM
  #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
You guys sound the Devil fans when other fans say something about the Devils. A little too sensitive.

They got all of the bounces of the ball. Just like the Islanders got every bounce the puck in their run. Puck luck.

The 2007 Super Bowl and the Tyree catch. A normal play.

The 2011 Super Bowl. 9-7. The 4th seed. Kyle Williams.

Just stop.
Tyree made a great play. Plain and simple. Its not like Eli threw the ball at him and it got stuck in his face mask for a catch. It wasn't luck. Tyree caught the ball by any means possible. He made a play when the Giants needed one. Just because Tyree has never done that before its considered "luck"?

Kyle Williams choked under pressure. As the game wore on there was a lot more pressure to not make a mistake. There was no guarantee that if Kyle Williams catches that punt the 49ers win. I guess it was lucky that Tynes didn't crumble under the same pressure that Williams did?

People like to throw rocks at things that shine. The Giants have two shiny Lombardi trophies. You don't have to like it. But don't try and say it was luck. They made plays. Other teams didn't. It's that easy.

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08-30-2013, 07:15 PM
  #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
What people also fail to point out, is that the Giants in 2007 were not HEALTHY until their SB run started.
Why would they point out something that doesn't jive with their narrative? It's all luck that the guys got health, clearly.

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08-30-2013, 07:34 PM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Or you could just as easily make the argument that those Giants teams were great teams that ran into hard luck during their losses. I love how you don't even put forth that argument since it doesn't suit your position.

Do yourself a favor and take your own advice. Just stop.
Sample size...

[QUOTE=Jonathan.]No offense, but good teams make their own luck."[/QUOTE=Jonathan.]

This is simply not true. It's more like "good luck makes good teams great, great teams greater" and "bad luck makes great teams good, good teams average" etc...Just look at certain "luck" stats such as...stuff like fumble recovery rates on year to year basis. There's no consistent correlation between it year to year. If you deny luck is involved in sports you are just wrong. How much of a factor it is is open to debate but it's certainly there and has a large effect.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan.
So now every dropped pass is magic luck? That stuff is going to happen every single game. I'm sure Jets opponents have dropped passes before, too.
I don't think you understand the concept. Dropped passes do happen every game. However what % of passes thrown are dropped? More significantly what % of passes to Welker are dropped? It's very low. 90+% of the time you would expect Welker to make the catch. The Giants got "lucky" in that the rare/unlikely scenario occurred. The Giants didn't do anything that made Welker drop the ball. It just happens sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfish
t isn't luck that Eli is a machine in fourth quarters and the playoffs. Eli is a big game player, and big game players win big games.
This is a myth. Eli's QB rating by quarter the last 4 years (taking a simple average of the 4) is 80.4, 96.8, 88.3, 89.0 (89.6 overall)

[Quote=DudMan28]Tyree made a great play. Plain and simple. Its not like Eli threw the ball at him and it got stuck in his face mask for a catch. It wasn't luck. Tyree caught the ball by any means possible. He made a play when the Giants needed one. Just because Tyree has never done that before its considered "luck"?[/DudMan28]

I think you just don't like the term "luck." Would you prefer to call it a "statistically unlikely event" or "unrepeatable (easily)" event? Because that's what it is. Maybe it's not "luck" that he caught that one in that given situation but repeat the play 100 times way more often than not that ball isn't getting caught.


Last edited by SA16: 08-30-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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08-30-2013, 07:59 PM
  #684
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How it is that a ridiculous stat like Quarterback rating is used for anything in serious discourse is beyond me.

Somehow Eli'a QB rating supplants his 4th quarter comeback records, and multiple late 4th quarter game winning drives in Super Bowls. We'll be arguing that Phillip Rivers is the better quarterback again, then...

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08-30-2013, 08:22 PM
  #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
How it is that a ridiculous stat like Quarterback rating is used for anything in serious discourse is beyond me.

Somehow Eli'a QB rating supplants his 4th quarter comeback records, and multiple late 4th quarter game winning drives in Super Bowls. We'll be arguing that Phillip Rivers is the better quarterback again, then...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...roethlisberger

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08-30-2013, 08:53 PM
  #686
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In both 2007 and 2011, the Giants beat the NFC #1 and #2 seeds on the road and then beat the AFC's #1 seed in the Super Bowl, nuff said.

Rangerboy, you want to call the Tyree play, "luck" or the muff punt by Williams, "luck". Be my guest. If you know anything about football you would know the games often come down to just a few plays. We could also go through and find a few plays in those games that went against the Giants, that you could deem, "luck". Off the top of my head, in XLII the interception in the 2nd quarter. Deep in New England territory, Eli places the ball perfectly, Smith deflects it up into the air, New England picks it off. XLVI, 2nd quarter, Giants up 9-3 and driving. 3rd down from about the New England 30, Bradshaw runs for a first down and Boothe gets called for a phantom holding penalty. 3rd and long, they do not convert and have to punt. But, I guess those plays do not count since the Giants won the game.

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08-30-2013, 08:57 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
I don't mean to sound uncaring, but running backs like Brown are very easy to find in this league. The issue is to try to bring someone n who doesn't know our system.

Jacobs could be a help; but he hasn't been training as far as I know. Torrain can protect well, from what I have seen.
Agreed. Brown is very replaceable. RB's are a dime a dozen nowadays, which is why I never want the Giants to draft one before the 3rd round and would never want them to commit huge money to FA-RB.

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08-30-2013, 09:50 PM
  #688
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On a separate note, I have not played a Madden since Madden '08... How the hell do you play defense in Madden 25?

And offense seems a little easy too. I'm using Nassib as my starting QB, and went 15/21 in my first game with him

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08-30-2013, 11:27 PM
  #689
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Meh, new Madden is mediocre. I bought it for the Sunday Ticket package.

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08-30-2013, 11:53 PM
  #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
How it is that a ridiculous stat like Quarterback rating is used for anything in serious discourse is beyond me.

Somehow Eli'a QB rating supplants his 4th quarter comeback records, and multiple late 4th quarter game winning drives in Super Bowls. We'll be arguing that Phillip Rivers is the better quarterback again, then...
Lol it is not a ridiculous stat. It's easily the best of the common stats to judge a quarterback. Just like at the leaderboards every year they are basically just as you would expect them to look based on the top QB.

Oh and Rivers is (well was prior to the last two years - recently he is not) a much better quarterback. Wins is a team stat...Defense/special teams and plenty of other things a QB does not influence are involved.

You can't tell me Eli is better in the 4th quarter than other QB's and it's his best time when the numbers easily show his 4th quarter stars are basically exactly the same as his regular stats and are in general just good (not amazing or anything). If he happens to have huge amounts of comebacks that's largely a stat of circumstance and opportunity.

Should I not mention that Romo is a much better player than Eli and it's really not that close (oh and that Romo also happens to have been clutch in the past)

Oh and I do think Eli is a pretty good QB. I would rank him in the 8-10 range in the league behind (not in order) Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, Romo, Roethlisberger, Ryan for sure. A little above your Stafford/Flacco group and then leaving out Luck/Wilson/Newton and all the guys who haven't played much.


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08-31-2013, 12:28 AM
  #691
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"A stat of circumstance and opportunity" indicates to me that you haven't followed Manning's career as a Giants sufficiently. Watch the tape of the 2011 games; Manning was the team.

Pretty short and sweet. There isn't much I can say to argue if a Jets fans are going to suggest the best QB in NY sports history, a two time SB champion is just barely in the top third of QB's in the league. Behind Romo and Ryan is laughable.

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08-31-2013, 12:52 AM
  #692
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"A stat of circumstance and opportunity" indicates to me that you haven't followed Manning's career as a Giants sufficiently. Watch the tape of the 2011 games; Manning was the team.

Pretty short and sweet. There isn't much I can say to argue if a Jets fans are going to suggest the best QB in NY sports history, a two time SB champion is just barely in the top third of QB's in the league. Behind Romo and Ryan is laughable.
anyone who would take Romo or Ryan over Eli is insane, or a homer.

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08-31-2013, 06:09 AM
  #693
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Lol it is not a ridiculous stat. It's easily the best of the common stats to judge a quarterback. Just like at the leaderboards every year they are basically just as you would expect them to look based on the top QB.

Oh and Rivers is (well was prior to the last two years - recently he is not) a much better quarterback. Wins is a team stat...Defense/special teams and plenty of other things a QB does not influence are involved.

You can't tell me Eli is better in the 4th quarter than other QB's and it's his best time when the numbers easily show his 4th quarter stars are basically exactly the same as his regular stats and are in general just good (not amazing or anything). If he happens to have huge amounts of comebacks that's largely a stat of circumstance and opportunity.

Should I not mention that Romo is a much better player than Eli and it's really not that close (oh and that Romo also happens to have been clutch in the past)

Oh and I do think Eli is a pretty good QB. I would rank him in the 8-10 range in the league behind (not in order) Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, Romo, Roethlisberger, Ryan for sure. A little above your Stafford/Flacco group and then leaving out Luck/Wilson/Newton and all the guys who haven't played much.
Romo, Roethlisberger, and Ryan ahead of Eli? HAHA. The others I will agree, but let's not be ridiculous.

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08-31-2013, 06:13 AM
  #694
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I don't think you understand the concept. Dropped passes do happen every game. However what % of passes thrown are dropped? More significantly what % of passes to Welker are dropped? It's very low. 90+% of the time you would expect Welker to make the catch. The Giants got "lucky" in that the rare/unlikely scenario occurred. The Giants didn't do anything that made Welker drop the ball. It just happens sometime.
That was not an easy catch. The ball was thrown behind him and Welker had to reach back across his body. However, all these things you are mentioning are not luck. It is called, making a play vs not making a play. Each play you bring up, the Giants made the play and the opponent did not. "Luck" would have been if Brady got hurt in the AFC Championship game and the Giants got to face the back-up. If you want an example of "luck", look to the Jets in 2009 when the Colts pulled Peyton in the 2nd half, handed the Jets the game and they got in the play-offs.

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08-31-2013, 06:52 AM
  #695
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In both 2007 and 2011, the Giants beat the NFC #1 and #2 seeds on the road and then beat the AFC's #1 seed in the Super Bowl, nuff said.

Rangerboy, you want to call the Tyree play, "luck" or the muff punt by Williams, "luck". Be my guest. If you know anything about football you would know the games often come down to just a few plays. We could also go through and find a few plays in those games that went against the Giants, that you could deem, "luck". Off the top of my head, in XLII the interception in the 2nd quarter. Deep in New England territory, Eli places the ball perfectly, Smith deflects it up into the air, New England picks it off. XLVI, 2nd quarter, Giants up 9-3 and driving. 3rd down from about the New England 30, Bradshaw runs for a first down and Boothe gets called for a phantom holding penalty. 3rd and long, they do not convert and have to punt. But, I guess those plays do not count since the Giants won the game.
You guys have no reason to complain about anything. Every bounce broke the Giants way. You guys can't admit that. Williams muffed on 2 chances. It led to to 10 points. If the Rangers had a few of these bounces,they would have more than 1 Cup in 70 plus years. Stop complaining about injuries in a sport where every team has major injuries because its the nature of the sport. Look at the title of this thread. The Giants have no luck.

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08-31-2013, 08:28 AM
  #696
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btw. The person saying the "The Giants have no luck" with the thread title, is likely referring to injuries not overall franchise luck.

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08-31-2013, 10:52 AM
  #697
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
That was not an easy catch. The ball was thrown behind him and Welker had to reach back across his body. However, all these things you are mentioning are not luck. It is called, making a play vs not making a play. Each play you bring up, the Giants made the play and the opponent did not. "Luck" would have been if Brady got hurt in the AFC Championship game and the Giants got to face the back-up. If you want an example of "luck", look to the Jets in 2009 when the Colts pulled Peyton in the 2nd half, handed the Jets the game and they got in the play-offs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16
I think you just don't like the term "luck." Would you prefer to call it a "statistically unlikely event" or "unrepeatable (easily)" event? Because that's what it is. Maybe it's not "luck" that he caught that one in that given situation but repeat the play 100 times way more often than not that ball isn't getting caught.
Call it whatever you want that's what it is. And I agree it wasn't an easy catch. Still a catch he makes more often than not. And absolutely the Jets situation in 2009 was extremely lucky that they happened to play the best team in the league week 17, a team so good that they sat Peyton Manning. I'm not biased for the Jets or against the Giants or anything lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30
anyone who would take Romo or Ryan over Eli is insane, or a homer.
Knew this would happen. No. Anyone who would take Eli over them is insane or a homer. And is basing their entire argument on two superbowl games they won. It's really not even close. Romo is much better than Eli. As is Ryan. Manning is still in the 75th-80th percentile among QB's. He's very good. Top 10 in the league. Not as good as the other guys. He's not as accurate. Higher interception rate. Lower touchdown rate. Averages less yards per attempt.

And regarding Roethlisberger I really don't know how you can argue Eli is better. He has also won two superbowls so now that is a wash. He also throws for way more yards/attempt. Is much more accurate. Doesn't throw as many INT's. He can run a little bit. The only thing Eli has better than Ben is that he has never missed a game in his career (and if you want to say this is what makes him better than I guess Crosby isn't the best player in the NHL?)

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08-31-2013, 11:04 AM
  #698
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Romo has had marginally better production. But if you are telling me he's a better football player, you're crazy. You're telling me that 2-3 TDs, a couple hundred yards, and 4-5% better completion rate overcomes the fact that Romo crumbles in every big game situation he ever finds himself in? Over the last 3 years the Cowboys have had better support from the running game, as well.

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08-31-2013, 11:18 AM
  #699
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If winning a Cup feels anything like winning those SBs, I'll probably start crying. No shame.

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08-31-2013, 11:22 AM
  #700
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My prediction for Giants final roster

QB- Manning, Carr, Nassib

RB- Wilson, Brown (PUP), Torain, Scott, Hynoski

WR- Nicks, Cruz, Murphy, Jernigan, Randle, Barden

TE- Myers, Pascoe, Robinson

OL- Baas, Boothe, Brewer, Capers, Cordle, Deihl, Pugh, Snee

DL- Austin, Hankins, Jenkins Joseph, Kiwanuka, Moore, Patterson, Pierre-Paul, Rogers, Tuck, Trattau

LB- Connor, Herzlich, Paysinger, Rivers, Williams

CB- Amukamara, Hosely, Ross, Thomas, Webster

S- Hill, Mundy, Rolle, Sash

ST- Brown, Weatherford, DeOssie

Thoughts- I probably have to swap out a D lineman for both another corner and linebacker.

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